Changes: 1. Natural minerals were moved inwards, cliff terrain changed to allow better defense against mutalisks 2. 3, 9 o'clock expansion entrances were moved towards the natural 3. Turrets can now be built in front of natural 4. Area in front of 6, 12 o'clock expansions are now buildable 5. Middle area shrunk, the hills became larger 6. Middle expos are now 1000M 3000G each
Changes: 1. Less hill area in front of natural, extra ramp added for shorter rush distances 2. Less area in the hills at center 3. The ramp at island expansions are no longer dropable 4. Area behind natural is no longer buildable 5. The cliffs surrounding the main bases are now thicker 6. Made main bases even with doodads Kona: Not noted, but 12/6 o'clock's island expos are back to one gas
- Bloody Ridge becomes New Bloody Ridge - Aztec becomes Neo Aztec - Both maps were changed to balance TvP matchup.
- Empire of the Sun becomes New Empire of the Sun - Changed to balance TvZ
On April 21 2011 14:11 mustaju wrote: They really started liking backdoors, I see.
Uh oh. Let's hope the Blizzard mapmaking team isn't doing a slow sabotage of the BW maps.
Anyways, these maps look quite interesting. Gonna hold all my reservations until I see some games on them. However, I'll miss Benzene. It was such a cool-looking map, IMO.
On April 21 2011 14:16 ShadeR wrote: I'm happy about fortress and benzene being replaced..was bored of those two in particular. + Show Spoiler +
oh yeah cue customary tank/terran imbaaa because their new maps
I don't really see any Terran imba on either maps.
I do see though that mutas won't be that great on beltway.
Just poking fun at how often its easiest to evaluate the effectiveness of tanks seeing as the have the most range. If you look back at previous "new maps" theres always a majority that believe its terran favoured. But hey maybe they have point? Why else would we have four terran bonjwa.
On April 21 2011 14:16 ShadeR wrote: I'm happy about fortress and benzene being replaced..was bored of those two in particular. + Show Spoiler +
oh yeah cue customary tank/terran imbaaa because their new maps
I don't really see any Terran imba on either maps.
I do see though that mutas won't be that great on beltway.
Just poking fun at how often its easiest to evaluate the effectiveness of tanks seeing as the have the most range. If you look back at previous "new maps" theres always a majority that believe its terran favoured. But hey maybe they have point? Why else would we have four terran bonjwa.
I know the obligatory "Tank imba on every new map" thing....I do it myself but I just don't see it on either of these maps.
On April 21 2011 14:21 IntoTheEmo wrote: What was wrong with Empire of the Sun?
well the only thing that comes to mind is the side expansions i see T can take 2 expansions and only have to guard 2 areas really thats definitely nice so if horizontal or cross pos that seems great for T those expos are not easy to attack for zerg its hard to tell with the middle who that helps more how do T's usually win the other thing coudl be rush distance on horitzonal positions that looks reasonably short the other thing thats always good for terran is the lack of high ground for third makes it a lot harder to defend from 4 rax/5 rax stuff
just copy pasted some relevant snippets that I had from an AIM conversation with Ver about Empire before
On April 21 2011 14:35 Waxangel wrote: blah, they should just play every game on match point, greatest map of all time
These maps look interesting , but I'm always concerned about balance when I see raised/island bases attached to the main ; i.e terran can defend it from siege but can also siege yours
i think beltway is quite standard... alternative on the other hand is quite interesting. that inbase island seems cool and i think the new maps look really nice.
Beltway looks like it might have some sick terran imbalance.. The middle cliffs, terran can just siege tanks up there for instant map control, mine and camp for all ages while protoss and zerg struggle to be able to do anything about it(as the tanks on the other cliffs will provide support fire if one cliff is assaulted).
On April 21 2011 14:35 Waxangel wrote: blah, they should just play every game on match point, greatest map of all time
God i miss that map. So many epic games - for a weirdish map is was pretty balanced overall - each race just had a higher than normal winrate in their favored matchup.
beltway looks really interestingg...will like to see how players do with the 4 expansions in the middle.. does look that mutas will own on the map tho.
Alternative looks like it'll be really easy to turtle on 3base, I think it'll favor mech pretty heavily, and maybe even be skewed towards T in TvP a bit.
Beltway I like the look of but I have no idea how it play out.
On April 21 2011 14:36 Kanil wrote: Alternative looks really interesting, and I won't miss Fortress too much... well, maybe a little -- but not too much.
I'm surprised they worked on Aztec/Bloody Ridge/EotS but didn't touch Icarus.
For what it's worth, Rose.of.dream did mention Icarus on Twitter along with New EotS.
I was excited for these, but the longer I look at them, the more I start to worry. Beltway looks too open, and I think it will become the new central plains, but watching a terran push down the very straight lines in TvP should make some good games I think. The island on alternative seems impossible to take vs terran, far to exposed, and a super long arc connecting the nat to shelling range. The map seems to be begging zerg to go 2 hatch lurker drop. There are so many drop lanes, not only is the lift distance short, but the air distance is short making slow drops more viable. mineral lines are positions so lurkers can easily get behind, it give the zerg 3 gas off of one choke, and it prevents toss from taking the island until essentially the late game. I think it will end up being more common than 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra.
edit: oh, and I agree that matchpoint was awesome, and underrated as a map. I will hesitantly say it was my favorite.
What do we qualify as tank imba? In my opinion, Beltway will be an excellent map for aggressive play and flanking. But that temple blocking the cliff behind the natural is just asking for mineral line shelling/harassment =P (tanks, hmm actually muta too). Really confused by the island expos on Alternative + the far third (long reinforce distance), I don't know how zergs will fare ... only time will tell!
Ah yes, I forgot about the obligatory map comparisons.
Beltway feels like circuit breaker on the outside, and kind of like tornado on the inside.
alternative is not like any map in particular. The main and adjacent island are like fortress. The tile set, 2 player nature, and the natural are like blue storm. The lack of high ground for the most part and the center expos remind me of judgement day. although I can't remember a map that has a center like that.
Ehhh I really don't like beltway on first glance, but we'll see how it plays out. Alternative looks pretty good, though ^^ And all this talk about best maps ever makes me think of fighting spirit, with match point in close second spot.
beltway looks REALLY good for tanks, tank drop at natural for example. also forcing the middle to be a viable 3rd is kinda cool. alternative is like triathlon for non-zerg midlong games, 'cause there are 3 pretty easy bases to secure.
Both new maps look like shit in my opinion, lots of linear terrain which is hideous. Something tells me korean mapping is going downhill from what i've seen on these latest batches of maps :/
Updated maps: New Bloody Ridge Changes: - Moved minerals at natural closer to main, made it easier for muta defense. - Shifted 3 and 9 oclock expo's ramps closer to natural - Made it possible to build turrets at some areas in front of natural - Made the walls at mid of map narrower, made area between ramp and bottom/top of map bigger - Made center expansions closer to each other, mineral/gas changed to 1000/3000.
Neo Aztec: Changes: - Made it possible to do drops at natural's cliff - Made it possible to build in front of the natural - Made center expansions' mineral/gas value at 1000/5000.
New Empire of the Sun - Redesigned main ramp leading out of bases, shortened horizontal base-to-base distance. - Made it impossible to drop at cliff at 12/6 oclock bases - Made it impossible to build at area behind natural's minerals - Made wall surrounding main thicker - Readjusted doodads/terrains to make bases more equally balanced - (Not noted, but 12/6 o'clock's island expos are back to one gas.)
On April 21 2011 23:08 Yxes2211 wrote: The new maps look cool
Glad Benzene is gone... never liked that map.
What was wrong with Benzene?
Hmmm... Prolly cuz JD was only +3 on that map
But between Icarus/Benzene/CB, I wasn't feeling the who space platform tileset anymore
These new maps are more visually pleasing lol
For me, it just felt like a ;poorly done matchpoint. I think the think the irked me the most was the cliff behind the natural. it seemed like every game that zerg got lurkers, they would stick 2 up there at some point. There was some tank/vulture placement, or some sneaky storms, but they were far less frequent. Terrain that is only there so that one race can do one trick annoys me.
Which is why I'm not a fan of the new aztec. steps of my logic:
1. Kespa changed the map, therefor they thought it was imbalanced PvT 2. adjusting mineral values, and allowing building is slightly beneficial to the terran, but far from game changing. 3. because Kespa wanted to balance the maps, and the other two patches do not affect balance too much, kespa wanted to change the balance through the cliff alteration. 4. The cliff is only good for tank drops 5. it is the ability to tank drop is what makes the map balanced 6. terran must tank drop every game, or they will be at a severe disadvantage.
That's a problem, and I don't see where I made a mistake in the reasoning.
On April 21 2011 23:08 Yxes2211 wrote: The new maps look cool
Glad Benzene is gone... never liked that map.
What was wrong with Benzene?
Hmmm... Prolly cuz JD was only +3 on that map
But between Icarus/Benzene/CB, I wasn't feeling the who space platform tileset anymore
These new maps are more visually pleasing lol
For me, it just felt like a ;poorly done matchpoint. I think the think the irked me the most was the cliff behind the natural. it seemed like every game that zerg got lurkers, they would stick 2 up there at some point. There was some tank/vulture placement, or some sneaky storms, but they were far less frequent. Terrain that is only there so that one race can do one trick annoys me.
Which is why I'm not a fan of the new aztec. steps of my logic:
1. Kespa changed the map, therefor they thought it was imbalanced PvT 2. adjusting mineral values, and allowing building is slightly beneficial to the terran, but far from game changing. 3. because Kespa wanted to balance the maps, and the other two patches do not affect balance too much, kespa wanted to change the balance through the cliff alteration. 4. The cliff is only good for tank drops 5. it is the ability to tank drop is what makes the map balanced 6. terran must tank drop every game, or they will be at a severe disadvantage.
That's a problem, and I don't see where I made a mistake in the reasoning.
Not sure about your use of the word "severe" ... terran could still win games on old Aztec, just not 50% of them. The cliff doesn't necessarily mean that T always has to tank drop to win, it could be the case that P has to divert resources prepare for a possible tank drop which will balance the map without actually going to a tank drop.
Thoughts on the new maps (I've got nothing intelligent to say about the changed ones).
Beltway
PvZ: looks next to impossible. If Zerg goes air, a 3rd base will be very difficult. Alternatively, Medusa/Andromeda style lurker drops + hydras at the front look like almost an auto-win. ZvT: feels like it favors Terran. Zerg can take the 3rd in the middle without too much trouble but any sort of drop play into the main will be difficult to deal with. Alternatively Terran can mech up and the paths are narrow enough to favor that style. On the other hand, Terran is forced to take a side 3rd base since the middle expansions are basically muta heaven. Kind of sucks for everyone, so maybe it will end up even-ish. TvP: Terran can spread out and just take 5 bases and slow push. Protoss... can go carriers?
Initial call: T>P, T>Z, Z>P
Alternative
Of all the maps I've seen, this reminds me most of... Bifrost. An updated, college-educated Bifrost without the ring around the outside, but still.
PvZ: Should be really interesting, but probably favors Protoss. Zerg's got no way to take a safe fast third expansion, and a slow one will run into DT/reaver issues. Once the temples are down the 3rd's fairly safe I guess, so we could see some long games - but I predict a bunch of hydra busts to start, and then a bunch of foiled busts because everybody knows it's coming. ZvT: Favors Zerg because... not sure why. It just doesn't look like there are great tank positions anywhere, and while the main's hugely droppable, that means Zerg will be expecting it... right? TvP: Rock's favorite map. Carriers all day long. Carriers carriers carriers. Also arbiters in that huge main.
One thing that's bugging me about Alternative is the asymetry with regards to the position of the gas geysers in the main bases. Weird that they didn't spot that. But I like the map, it's pure eye candy, but as for its substance... I don't dare speculate. Also, Empire of The Sun just transformed from being the most bland and boring map there is, to perhaps the most interesting out of all of the "old" maps. I think we'll be seeing a great variety of playstyles and builds on that map.
On April 21 2011 14:35 Waxangel wrote: blah, they should just play every game on match point, greatest map of all time
God i miss that map. So many epic games - for a weirdish map is was pretty balanced overall - each race just had a higher than normal winrate in their favored matchup.
I used to (up until about an hour or so ago) think that Match Point was one of the best maps out there - It had an Intricate and original layout, and it was suitable for alot of different playstyles and such - however, I just noticed upon looking at it a bit more that it is actually quite shodily made as far as symetry goes. I can't believe I hadn't picked up on that until just now and I can't let an issue like that slide, even if it's an intended asymmetry, because stuff like that can't be good for balance, and a big part of the aesthetic quality of a map is its ability to synergize appearance and functionality, I think.
On April 22 2011 08:57 Tadah wrote: One thing that's bugging me about Alternative is the asymetry with regards to the position of the gas geysers in the main bases. Weird that they didn't spot that. But I like the map, it's pure eye candy, but as for its substance... I don't dare speculate. Also, Empire of The Sun just transformed from being the most bland and boring map there is, to perhaps the most interesting out of all of the "old" maps. I think we'll be seeing a great variety of playstyles and builds on that map.
On April 21 2011 14:35 Waxangel wrote: blah, they should just play every game on match point, greatest map of all time
God i miss that map. So many epic games - for a weirdish map is was pretty balanced overall - each race just had a higher than normal winrate in their favored matchup.
I used to (up until about an hour or so ago) think that Match Point was one of the best maps out there - It had an Intricate and original layout, and it was suitable for alot of different playstyles and such - however, I just noticed upon looking at it a bit more that it is actually quite shodily made as far as symetry goes. I can't believe I hadn't picked up on that until just now and I can't let an issue like that slide, even if it's an intended asymmetry, because stuff like that can't be good for balance, and a big part of the aesthetic quality of a map is its ability to synergize appearance and functionality, I think.
Maps like Tau Cross are proof that maps don't need to be perfectly symmetrical to be balanced. To be honest I feel sort of the opposite; 100% perfectly symmetrical maps all the time can get kind of bland or boring after a while.
Do agree on your thoughts about the new empire of the sun though. That map just got a whole lot more interesting and I think we might see some awesome games on it.
Maps like Tau Cross are proof that maps don't need to be perfectly symmetrical to be balanced. To be honest I feel sort of the opposite; 100% perfectly symmetrical maps all the time can get kind of bland or boring after a while.
Do agree on your thoughts about the new empire of the sun though. That map just got a whole lot more interesting and I think we might see some awesome games on it.
I suppose my objection to the asymmetry in this instance is due to the fact that it's not a conceptually based one. They simply stick out and there are no justification for them it seems. It might lead to fun games and such, but I was more speaking from an aesthetic point of view and arguing about the basis of what I feel constitute a good map in that sense. The critisism of Match Point basically boils down to the fact that the difference in terrain are small, yet not so small as to be inconsequential in terms of balance. Now, the impact these features has on balance is not the main sticking point for me, what bugs me about the little inconstancies is that they appear arbitrary, as if no well thought out underlying design choice, the logical conclusion of which dictates the that the features in question be included in the map architecture. I hope you get what I'm trying to say here. It's a very subjective thing I suppose but I don't very much like it when I look at a map and I get this overwhelming feeling that whoever designed it just went "Well, let's just stick that in there and see how it pans out.", and Match Point for me, and in small ways Tau Cross as well, just reeks of either creative constipation or downright lazyness to me in some areas.
On April 22 2011 08:57 Tadah wrote: One thing that's bugging me about Alternative is the asymetry with regards to the position of the gas geysers in the main bases.
If you'll note, on most modern maps the geysers on every base are at the top. iirc there's some slight difference in mining time so they do this to equalize things.
On your other symmetry issue... well, as long as it's not significantly affecting balance, I prefer a not-quite-perfectly symmetrical map to one drawn with a ruler.
On April 22 2011 08:57 Tadah wrote: One thing that's bugging me about Alternative is the asymetry with regards to the position of the gas geysers in the main bases.
If you'll note, on most modern maps the geysers on every base are at the top. iirc there's some slight difference in mining time so they do this to equalize things.
On your other symmetry issue... well, as long as it's not significantly affecting balance, I prefer a not-quite-perfectly symmetrical map to one drawn with a ruler.
Yes, this is right, it was proven that gas geysers on top (or directly to the left) of the CC mine faster than geysers in other positions. There really isn't a way to make a x/y symmetric map perfectly balanced because of weird quirks like that, but modern mappers rather make the main gas mining the same for all bases (something that will affect every game) rather than make the relative gas positions the same, something that might not even matter most of the time.
On April 21 2011 14:35 Waxangel wrote: blah, they should just play every game on match point, greatest map of all time
God i miss that map. So many epic games - for a weirdish map is was pretty balanced overall - each race just had a higher than normal winrate in their favored matchup.
I used to (up until about an hour or so ago) think that Match Point was one of the best maps out there - It had an Intricate and original layout, and it was suitable for alot of different playstyles and such - however, I just noticed upon looking at it a bit more that it is actually quite shodily made as far as symetry goes. I can't believe I hadn't picked up on that until just now and I can't let an issue like that slide, even if it's an intended asymmetry, because stuff like that can't be good for balance, and a big part of the aesthetic quality of a map is its ability to synergize appearance and functionality, I think.
I don't know, I just miss maps like HBR, Outsider, and Match Point, where it really felt like the map mattered. None of the PL maps this year feel like they really shape the way the game plays, with the exception of Aztec.
First thought when I see all the now-buildable terrain is: great, more siege tank turtling. It's getting real old seeing 50 depots built in the middle of the map.
just saying this coz usually everyone whines about terran ive got no idea how things will pan out, hoping they produce some interesting games like monte cristo has
alternative looks really nice. i dont really like beltway... and hopefully, neo aztec doesnt have as much of the TvP imbalance like its counter part...
I am crying inside guys, SERIOUSLY? I came to the scene late 2008, but all I could help thinking about when I saw Beltway was Plains to Hill. Learn your map historyyy guys:
I do quite like this revival of old maps, and it gets back to the dynamic of map-control is easier with the tighter center, and is also much more important, plus a ton of places for some fun proxies, like proxy E-Bays into Valkyries
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/l10f/etc/beltway.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/l10f/etc/alternative.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/402_Aztec.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/l10f/etc/NEOTS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/406_Empire%20of%20the%20Sun.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/LEOGx.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.e-sports.or.kr/news/file/images/323031313432315F34.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://classic.battle.net/war3/images/ladder/maps/wetlands.jpg)
I came to the scene late 2008, but all I could help thinking about when I saw Beltway was Plains to Hill.![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/49_Plains%20to%20Hill%20D.jpg)
