Indeed mcnasty is right. You maybe able to kill of the early tank or so with a few goons but gundam still got his mines and rines. Which means ur pretty damned, and untill you got a few more gates online gundam prob. will have 2tank and a few more vults in frontline and meanwhile he was able to build bunker or few turs. Microing with goons vs bamboo strat is maybe the key vs hasu terrans but not vs guys like gundam.

Nuttie

Poland302 Posts

February 09 2003 02:30 GMT

#23

Best macro player: Blackman ++

Saab

Sweden28 Posts

February 09 2003 02:43 GMT

#24

Considering the fact that the most succesfull programers are terran/zerg users, protoss should be the hardest race to micro/macro with

It depends a lot on your definition, if macro is defined as quickly being able to switch from battlefield to unit production/building supply then terran or zerg is probably the hardest.. but if it's defined as making decisions in for instance when to go expand (and where) then protoss is no more easier than zerg or terran i guess (contrary to what everyone here says)

Excalibur_Z

United States12249 Posts

February 09 2003 03:06 GMT

#25

It makes sense to me. Protoss dominates at newbie level and is dominated at pro level. So many Terran units are ranged (and a long range at that) that dancing makes them incredibly cost-effective. Zerg units are so numerous and fast that you can dance out weakened ones and swarm the toss under. There's nothing Toss can do except take casualties while they attempt to break containment/a push. As Terran players micro their pushes more and more (tank spacing, good mine and turret placement), and as Zerg's ling/hydra control improves, it makes it that much harder for toss to win.

Toss is therefore totally reliant on surprise attacks (psi raids, carriers, arbiter recall/stasising a push) to defeat a good Terran, and precision storming to defeat a good Zerg.

That's my take on it anyway.

Casper...

Liberia4948 Posts

February 09 2003 03:12 GMT

#26

ya nazgul went 30-1 or so vs terran in wgtour 2 seasons ago by using psi raids, carriers, arbiter recall and stasis.

ya nazgul went 30-10 or so vs zerg in wgtour 2 seasons ago by using only precision storming.

ya nazgul raped jinnam with precision storm.

toss dominates at newbie level and is dominated at pro level therefore blah blah more garbage etc etc!

MPXMX

Canada4309 Posts

February 09 2003 08:18 GMT

#27

Actually, my theory is that toss is just underplayed with pros. IMO the races are fairly balanced if two players that are matched are good and about equally experienced.

And I agree with everything in Casper's first post on this topic.

MPXMX

Canada4309 Posts

February 09 2003 08:21 GMT

#28

Oh yeah.

Some people are dumb so I'll spell it out:

B o x e r - - - - R u l e s - - - - A t - - - - M a c r o

Understand? I recommend you watch some Boxer replays ( one of the best examples being the famous Boxer vs Chungsang game ) then talk about this using the knowledge you acquire.

OvertLogic

United States45 Posts

February 09 2003 08:58 GMT

#29

I think it depends mostly on the matchup. Personally, I find tvp very easy to micro, but tvz hard. Also doesn't help that lately I've been forgetting to ctrl key comsat. Lurks > rines w/o any detec :O! Though in general I would say that

Most Micro Intensive:
Terran
Toss
Zerg

-A note on the Toss. I think that a bit more micro from top Toss players would see a few more Toss victories. Plus some more diversity/misdirection in attack. I saw one of the Boxer/Naz reps where Boxer dropped 2 tanks on the nat, another in the main, and ran vults in the front. Naz managed it well, but, still... You see Zerg hit w/ muta, drops, and a frontal all at the same time too. But not very often do you see a Toss frontal/sair/temp drop or whatever at the same time.

Most Macro Intensive:
Zerg
Toss
Terran

Might just be my old school bones, but it's just the way I feel.

Possum87{+}

United States19 Posts

February 09 2003 17:59 GMT

#30

Hardest micro
1.Terran (tvz makes it this)
2.Protoss
3.Zerg
Hardest macro
1.Terran
2.Zerg
3.Protoss
I'm a toss player btw!!

imRadu

1798 Posts

February 09 2003 18:04 GMT

#31

Nasty well said.
and as for the original thread
Hardest micro:
terran
zerg
toss
Hardest macro:
terran
toss
zerg

Commander{+}

United States2878 Posts

February 09 2003 20:34 GMT

#32

Lol Possum, in Macro terms Toss and Terran are basically the same, they each have many differant buildings which need to be built out of. How is protoss 3rd hardest, and terran hardest? The only thing which makes zerg the hardest to macro with (imo) is that they can't que up 5 units, they have to constantly check all their hatcheries and make sure the larva isn't sitting around. So the zerg has to check their unit production far more often then the terran or toss do. In late game, when Terran/Toss have plenty of money and expansions they can que each building up with 5, and only check when it gets down to 1, then que it back to 5.

The reason I think Zerg has the hardest micro is because Muta Harassment and Zling harrassment is actually pretty tough. More tough then just rushing in with M&M's, or M&M dropping. Plus most terrans just pull siege moves, they load lots of siege tanks outside the zergs base, blast away the sunkens, sit their M&M army right by the tanks to slaughter any zerglings, plus have a few SV to irr the lurks. The zerg actually has to use some micro to rush out and defend. And when you get into late game, talking about 40 mins into it. Zerg starts to get defilers, and ultras. Defiler believe it or not does take some good micro. I agree in some situations terran has probably a harder time microing, but overall, zerg has it the hardest. Toss is just almost the same as terran, but they do have to micro storm properly, all Terran has to do is use irr, and let it kill off the unit itself.

AlmostSexy

United States150 Posts

February 09 2003 20:51 GMT

#33

Zerg is the easiest macro for one simple reason...larvae builds up to 3 so even if you are slacking a lil bit you can still build 2-3 units at a time and catch up. While for toss and terran if they building isnt in use always you are losing production time. And this argument is rather pointless in general because there are no scientific criterea from which we are juding. I mean what qualifies "hard micro" ? Is it the amount of time involved? The difficulty of the clicking? The response time necessary? The intelligence and decision making involved in each race? Or is it all of these...

To overt logic- you cant honestly think that professial protoss players dont micro a TON...and the reason you dont see temp drop sair and frontal at the same time is because they all take a ton of MICRO and you cant micro 3 seperate attacks at the same time unless your the fastest bw player out there...thanks for contradicting yourself.

Stim_Abuser

United States1277 Posts

February 09 2003 20:54 GMT

#34

rahvin thats acctually pretty stupid.
zerg has the easiest macro because it has has larva that can build up thus saving time & you dont have to check your hatchs to see if a larva is sitting around. terran is the hardest to macro imo because like people before me said the units build faster then protoss & zerg has the ability of saving up larva. Rahvin have you ever played terran at a decent level? micro m&m vs lurkers or vults on goons with mines or dropship micro its alot harder then you think. anyway for original post

for micro
1.terran
2.protoss
3.zerg
for macro
1.terran
2.protoss
3.zerg

Sinny

United States81 Posts

February 09 2003 21:13 GMT

#35

Boxer without doubt is the greatest terran micro yet.
But, my favorite macro party is JJu. I just finished a watching a rep of JJu v XellOs[yG]. It was amazing how xellos played but the way that JJu won the game with amazing macro was just awesome. Handspeed is very important in playing micro/macro.

AlmostSexy

United States150 Posts

February 09 2003 21:14 GMT

#36

thanks for saying exactly what i said about zerg...

Eliminator

Netherlands681 Posts

February 10 2003 01:35 GMT

#37

Micro in TvZ is as hard as ZvT, if zerg just sends out his crap nothing happens really. Gay terran drops can annoy as hell. U need to know how many troops u need to pull back. U need to watch on map if he doesn't attack u anywhere else. If he does u gotta have to micro at 2 places, and terran only 1, I mean he stims his rines at minerals waits till zerg shits gets up then go through the front. U gotta burrow lurks at main and u gotta micro well at the front with lurks, lings and maybe muta if u got em. So basically I'm saying:

Hardest micro:
1 Zerg/Terran/Protoss

Hardest macro:
1 Zerg
3 Terran/Protoss

Everyone can micro better with 1 race than the other. It's all about what u like. If u like storming shit outta zerg, u'll get good in pvz. If u like seeing rines getting raped 5 at the same time, u'll a get good zvt, if u like overwhelming units from every direction u'll get a good zvp. If u got potential not to mess any unit up. U'll get good zvz etc. etc. I'm a toss player btw.

Zerg's macro is the hardest tho, cause they got hatches all over the map. All those rally points make u go insane. Well that is if u use every one of them, which is already hard enough.

j03xy00n

United States8 Posts

October 01 2007 01:15 GMT

#38

y didnt ne1 put iloveoov as best macro thot he was the best

XythOs

Germany520 Posts

October 01 2007 01:20 GMT

#39

On October 01 2007 10:15 j03xy00n wrote:
y didnt ne1 put iloveoov as best macro thot he was the best

Maybe 'coz this thread is 4 fucking years old?

Equinox_kr