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I hope this is thread worthy, but here it goes.
I have never played Brood War. Ever. My only RTS experience is with Starcraft 2, I started in beta and I'm in masters now. I've been very, very interested in brood war though. It's like this mysterious legend of a game that all the pros talk about a lot, but one that I never got to experience.
So I downloaded the game, and in my first game I noticed, obviously, how much harder the mechanics were (simply moving your army, macrong) but a HUGE issue with how bad I am at it is I don't know SHIT about the maps. And to make it worse, they are all dark. I literally have no idea what is around every corner. Hell, I don't even know where my opponents base is. How did you guys learn these maps? Obviously you played on them for years.. but is there any way I can see them without it being fully dark?
What are some easy builds / openers I can do? For example, in starcraft 2 you could tell me to go 3 gate robo into 2 base colossus. That's pretty simple and I know what I should generally look to do in that game. Judging from what artosis says, I could probably just DT drop every game I play and do pretty well! (not to say I want to play protoss, I would play any race but i'm guessing protoss is the most noob friendly)
What are the most standard unit comps? I know it varies, but for another example Stalker / colossus is a pretty standard unit comp. Roach Hydra.. Tank / Marine / Medivac. Sorry if this is too general - but I literally don't know.
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if you're playing in single player, use the Black Sheep Wall cheat code to see the map. If you're in a multiplayer melee game, hover your mouse over Map Preview in the game lobby
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Popular maps for the online scene are.
Python
Fighting Spirit
Destination
Popular team maps
Hunters...thats it lol
TvP
Vulture+Tank
Zealot+Dragoon
ZvP
Hydralisk
High templar+Zealot+dragoon
TvT
Tank+Dropship+Goliath
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TvP: terran:vulture/tank and goliaths if needed with vessels for emp later on
protoss:dragoon/zealot/ht/arbiter for stasis/recall and maybe reavers.
TvZ: terran:mm with vessels for irradiate and dropships
zerg:ling into muta into ling/lurker into ling/lurker/defiler and then maybe ultras
TvT: tank/goliath with dropships basicly, mostly a position war.
ZvP: zerg: the tvz composition can work, though most of the time it's a large ammount of hydras with lurkers, defilers, scourges for drop harrass and defilers/ultras.
protoss: dragoons/zealot/ht/reaver/shuttles for reavers and harrass
ZvZ: lings into mutas and that's about it :d. Short matchup;
PvP: dragoons/zealots/hts/reavers and shuttles
These are pretty basic and you will probably see them most of the time however it can vary a lot but these are the most common/standard to use.
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The amount by which you can actificially inflate your rating by cheesing in broodwar is quite small. A DT drop executed by [insert A+ level toss], is quite different from yours.
But on to your questions, for protoss the most standard unit compositions would be:
PvT: Dragoon, Zealot, (Observer), Arbiter.
PvP: Dragoon, Zealot, ShuttleReaver (this later becomes HT + Archon).
PvZ: Dragoon, Zealot, HT + Archon.
When it comes to builds i don't feel qualified to educate you, but check out liquipedia/PL vods/Progamer reps.
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Easy build for protoss in starcraft :
PvT :
Do the best you can to have DT + 2/3 gates as soon as possible (cutting probes, build only probe, make sure that the chain of first gate -> cyber core -> citadel -> templar is undisrupted...) and send them all to Terran base and pray.
This made me go 3-2 in my first 5 games on iCCup.
PvZ :
Build a forge at the nat and an hidden pylon near Zerg base, after that build cannons in Zerg base and pray.
PvP :
OK, build 2-3 gates, no gas, build only zeal and send to the enemy base, and of course, pray.
With this you can win with no skill and the game is relaxed because you really have nothing to lose and you never get attacked during the game (failed the first attack = gg + quit game), so there is no fear of sudden attacks/harass or anything.
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Know thy maps! These are the most commonly played 1v1 maps. FS and Python are 4 player, Destination is 2 player. The starting locations are shown with the colored ovals.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/237_Fighting Spirit.jpg
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/147_Python.jpg
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/188_Destination.jpg
Protoss is a good way to start BW; it's easy to learn, and easy to use, at the lower levels. Now, I'm not a protoss main, so I'll probably be wrong on some counts, but here's the basic gist of PvX matchups:
PvT will be pretty easy early on. Focus on dragoons first, then with zealots as support. Add high templars as the game goes on. Observers are a cheap way to maintain map awareness. They are also necessary to sweep mines. Arbiters will be necessary lategame for the army cloaking, stasis, and recall. Making carriers is also a useful skill toi have a good method to win the game. In general, the Protoss should be controlling the encounters, and maintaining map presence.
Dragoon -> SpeedZeals + Dragoons -> SpeedZeals + Dragoons + HT -> SpeedZeals + Dragoons + HT + Arbiters -----maybe---> Carriers
PvZ will probably be the hardest PvX matchup. Use corsairs to scout and kill overlords and mutalisks. Zealots will be the backbone of your army early game. You will need to get HT and archons fast to support the zealots. A good mix of zealot, dragoon, archon, plus a couple HT is a really powerful Protoss army. Dark templar are also good for harassment, and for fighting in battles if your corsairs did their jobs. They are also pretty good vs ultraling defiler. This matchup is really dynamic, both Zerg and Protoss will be competing for map control. Both have the capability to hard turtle, and to be mobile.
Zealot -> SpeedZeals + HT -> SpeedZeals + Archons + HT + Dragoons
PvP: now I haven't played many PvP's, but Reaver, DT are both viable openers. Dragoons will be the backbone until speed zealots. Reavers and HT are both powerful midgame options and will help you win battles.
BW is much more macro oriented than SC2. You'll almost always have at least 3 bases up and running, usually more, unless you cheese of course. You should be putting down cannons at each expansion to defend and delay the opponent's army. When you're just beginning, focus on your macro. Having a fresh army waiting at your natural is much more important than trying to pull cute micro tricks in the field. Also, use F-keys, and hotkeys.
EDIT: standard builds:
PvZ:
Forge FE
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_FE_(vs._Zerg)
It's safe and it usually will not leave you behind. Watch out for Zergling runby's.
PvT:
1 Gate Core
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/1_Gate_Core_(vs._Terran)
It's safe except vs 2 fact, it can be aggressive, and it has decent economy.
12 Nexus
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/12_nexus
It's safe, it almost always pulls your ahead, and it makes Terrans QQ, what more could you ask for?
PvP:
There are a lot of options, I don't know all that much about PvP, so eh:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/PvP_Strategy
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Just so you know this game is MUCH MUCH harder to learn than SC2.
1. The mechanics are harder(basic)
2. There are solid builds out there, and have been for years, down the the very food number in some cases. This is not the case in SC2 so u can get away with a lot more builds.
3. People have been playing the games for years and are very good at this point.
4. Even things like walling and FE are harder because it's not like SC2, things don't stack neatly.
So don't get discouraged but realize what your doing, masters in SC2 doesn't mean much in SC bw.
Also I highly suggest you use protoss. It's the easiest race and it's one where u can get lucky with dts, dt drops etc.
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You can also check out liquipedia and see the maps there with various walls offs and recommended strategys.
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Unit comps and general bw concepts can be gotten pretty easily by watching progames  Check out the SWL (aka team league) playoffs tonight. A number of the top talents in progaming will be playing, so it'll definitely give you an education on modern bw.
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Another thing, walling is NOT like SC2. I don't know if Protoss even has ling-tight walls.
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My advice would be that you watch a lot of progamer VODs. That way you get to know the maps, learn army compositions and get a general feel for the matchups. If you just want to look at a certain map, you can find pictures of them on TLPD. Also, BW games are a lot more entertaining imo, so you are in for a treat 
Another advice is to focus on one race, learning nine matchups at once is overwhelming. I would even go as far as playing one matchup at the time and then move on when you feel that you have some grasp of it. While Protoss is the most noob-friendly race, that doesn’t mean that you cant play Z or T. Just pick the race that you enjoy and suits your style, you will get owned in the beginning regardless of which race you choose. Also, your choice is not set in stone, you can change whenever you want to.
If you really want to be a solid BW player, visit iCCup (although you should definitely start with B-net.)
GL
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On April 02 2011 03:23 buhhy wrote:
Another thing, walling is NOT like SC2. I don't know if Protoss even has ling-tight walls.
Gateway over forge? 
My best advice is just to keep building SCVs. I have a horrible habit of forgetting.
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On April 02 2011 03:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 03:23 buhhy wrote:
Another thing, walling is NOT like SC2. I don't know if Protoss even has ling-tight walls. Gateway over forge?
Whoa, is it really? Did not know that. I keep thinking of how pylons suck at walling.
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On April 02 2011 03:23 buhhy wrote:
Another thing, walling is NOT like SC2. I don't know if Protoss even has ling-tight walls.
Gateway on top of forge creates a ling-tight wall.
buhhy gave many good tips. One thing though, 12 nexus is not very safe on Python which you probably will play a lot.
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On April 02 2011 03:32 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 03:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 02 2011 03:23 buhhy wrote:
Another thing, walling is NOT like SC2. I don't know if Protoss even has ling-tight walls. Gateway over forge? Whoa, is it really? Did not know that. I keep thinking of how pylons suck at walling.
It's all about the depots.
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Canada11297 Posts
Regarding maps- just pick Python to start with and play the hell out of it. It's the easiest map to get games on iCCup (Then add FS and Destination). It's actually much easier to improve this way in BW because you know exactly the map you're going to get rather than the random map on SC2's ladder.
Definitely check out liquipedia for strats, especially if you don't want to rely on prayer as kamikami suggests...
PvT and PvP I think 2gate range is fairly standard, while PvZ it's Fast Expand.
Mechanics are huge- the last time I made a thread on dealing with harassment I got good advice, but I was essentially told to get off iCCup until my mechanics were better aka win vs 3comp terran going 2 gate into mass macro as toss. I was rather annoyed at this at the time, but it honestly helped a lot just practicing my openings, to never miss a pylon, always build probes and keep my money down.
Without multi-base selection you really need to be adept at hopping around your base with the numbered hotkeys, unit making hotkeys and f2,f3,f4 keys.
Dark Templars are good, but I honestly haven't found them very useful myself as a beginning Protoss because everyone is so careful with detection. My theory on the lower levels to win via macro and eventually add in harassment mostly because they keep spending money on being safe from DT's. However, a well executed DT rush can still kill a bad toss like me PvP until I figure out the robo build better.
If you do play Protoss, you might find the fast expand the most uncomfortable because you're expanding with no military units, it's completely dependent on scouting, and Zerg can kill you a hundred different ways. However, after dieing a whole bunch, you start recognizing the different all-in's vs macro play that Zerg can throw at you. And sometimes you can even sneak a nexus in before even a cannon. Then you feel really baller.
Oh, for walling in, this is pretty key:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_Fast_Expand_Forge_Walling
I actually just print off the wallins for the 3 maps I play and have it sitting in front of me because I can never remember how to make the wallin.
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If you want to win, I think you should start off with Terrans. You can always do some sort of 1 base 2-3 fac all in with terrans, and they are as annoying as hell. Or...play zerg and start 4 pooling, I got 4 pooled 3 games in a row on iccup yesterday. =.= At C- level...
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lol @ all the posts in this thread that think unit composition=build
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On April 02 2011 03:37 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 03:32 buhhy wrote:On April 02 2011 03:30 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 02 2011 03:23 buhhy wrote:
Another thing, walling is NOT like SC2. I don't know if Protoss even has ling-tight walls. Gateway over forge? Whoa, is it really? Did not know that. I keep thinking of how pylons suck at walling. It's all about the depots.
O god... Terran walling is so fickle... I could never understand how pros block 9ps or 4p with a non-ling-tight wall. 
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On April 02 2011 04:46 puppykiller wrote:
lol @ all the posts in this thread that think unit composition=build
He asked for both standard compositions and builds.
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you're much better off looking up build orders/watching vods/reading newbie guides that others have written
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It's funny; I never thought of SCBW as hard until all of the SC2 comparisons. It was just the way it was.
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On April 02 2011 05:04 rift wrote:
It's funny; I never thought of SCBW as hard until all of the SC2 comparisons. It was just the way it was.
Lul, have you PLAYED SC2 yet?
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if you need to learn all of the units and their abilities I suggest downloading one of the individual micro challenge maps. After learning all the units and abilities I would split my practice time with pro replays/vods and iccup ladder, also if you go to op Teamliquid there is usually nice people there to play with and critique.
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On April 02 2011 05:04 rift wrote:
It's funny; I never thought of SCBW as hard until all of the SC2 comparisons. It was just the way it was.
Interesting point. I don't really understand how a game can be "hard" if both players have to struggle with the same challenges. I mean like is basketball a very hard game because it takes years to make three pointers and dunks and good ball control?
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On April 02 2011 05:08 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 05:04 rift wrote:
It's funny; I never thought of SCBW as hard until all of the SC2 comparisons. It was just the way it was. Interesting point. I don't really understand how a game can be "hard" if both players have to struggle with the same challenges. I mean like is basketball a very hard game because it takes years to make three pointers and dunks and good ball control?
Well would you think rock-paper-scissors is hard? Both players have to struggle with the mind games and the random chance.
EDIT: when I say harder, I mean there is more mechanical skill required, and thus more practice required. I don't mean it is harder to win at.
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On April 02 2011 03:23 buhhy wrote:
Another thing, walling is NOT like SC2. I don't know if Protoss even has ling-tight walls.
forge over gateway... or gateway over forge.. i keep forgetting which haha
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On April 02 2011 05:14 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 05:08 etheovermind wrote:On April 02 2011 05:04 rift wrote:
It's funny; I never thought of SCBW as hard until all of the SC2 comparisons. It was just the way it was. Interesting point. I don't really understand how a game can be "hard" if both players have to struggle with the same challenges. I mean like is basketball a very hard game because it takes years to make three pointers and dunks and good ball control? Well would you think rock-paper-scissors is hard? Both players have to struggle with the mind games and the random chance. EDIT: when I say harder, I mean there is more mechanical skill required, and thus more practice required. I don't mean it is harder to win at.
I see what you mean. So basically you mean that BW has a very high skill cap, that makes it so that most of the good players are much better than beginners.
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i feel like the best way to understand the game and the matchups are by watching progames.. theres more than enough content out there to help you.. just pick a player (i picked jaedong when i started bw) and follow that players game and playstyle.. by following one player youll eventually learn about the others and the teams and the different leagues and youll really see how much of an amazing piece of art bw is
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i'm still learning as well, so to avoid sounding retarded i won't try to tell you a very detailed build or anything. i will tell you the 2 things i think might be the most helpful to someone who wants to learn sc:bw:
1. always have a thirst to know more and learn each match-up in ever increasing detail. there are some vods i've watched maybe 20+ times to glean builds and tactics from them. there is always something new to learn, and the stuff you're overlooking might have a big impact on your play.
2. find a friend (or friends if you're so lucky) around your skill level to practice regularly with. for me that is my roommate, who i learn off-race matches with since he never played rts before. this made learning sc:bw a LOT more fun for me. the person can be a little better or worse, but the closer to your skill level the better so that you're both getting something out of the practice.
i think those 2 might have been the most important factors for me so far
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On April 02 2011 05:24 qdenser wrote:
2. find a friend (or friends if you're so lucky) around your skill level to practice regularly with. for me that is my roommate, who i learn off-race matches with since he never played rts before. this made learning sc:bw a LOT more fun for me. the person can be a little better or worse, but the closer to your skill level the better so that you're both getting something out of the practice.
OMG this.
iccup laddering is fun and all but i see it more as hard work.. if you have a buddy who challenges you and who you can challenge on a regular basis in a couple months you should both be hitting d+ish.. seriously friends make all the difference in this game.. it keeps it interesting and makes you come back for more (even if it is just dicking around on west or something)
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On April 02 2011 03:13 kamikami wrote:
Easy build for protoss in starcraft :
PvT :
Do the best you can to have DT + 2/3 gates as soon as possible (cutting probes, build only probe, make sure that the chain of first gate -> cyber core -> citadel -> templar is undisrupted...) and send them all to Terran base and pray.
This made me go 3-2 in my first 5 games on iCCup.
PvZ :
Build a forge at the nat and an hidden pylon near Zerg base, after that build cannons in Zerg base and pray.
PvP :
OK, build 2-3 gates, no gas, build only zeal and send to the enemy base, and of course, pray.
With this you can win with no skill and the game is relaxed because you really have nothing to lose and you never get attacked during the game (failed the first attack = gg + quit game), so there is no fear of sudden attacks/harass or anything.
hmm prayer seems to be a central strategic element for you. how effective is that?
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Build orders and unit/army composition(s) all vary depending on:
-Your race
-Your opponent's race/match-up overall
-The map
-Your overall goals in-game/long-term goal
-Present state of the game
Read everything (related to your race at least) in Liquipedia as it is a decent, comprehensive guide towards learning the fundamentals on basic competitive Brood War skills/BOs/unit usage + combinations (even if it a bit outdated, though IIRC, the only significant BO not found in Liquipedia presently is Stork's new PvT BO counter to 1 Rax FE, though it is generally, IIRC, a 1 Core Triple BO but I'm not really sure).
Also, practice A LOT on getting used to the mechanics in BW as SC 2 really dumbs things down to favor even the most casual of players, but BW definitely rewards those who have practiced the most.
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On April 02 2011 05:08 etheovermind wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 05:04 rift wrote:
It's funny; I never thought of SCBW as hard until all of the SC2 comparisons. It was just the way it was. Interesting point. I don't really understand how a game can be "hard" if both players have to struggle with the same challenges. I mean like is basketball a very hard game because it takes years to make three pointers and dunks and good ball control?
SC:BW is REALLY hard.
If I say checkers is easy, does that make sense?
You can get good at checkers pretty quickly. It's a very simple game. You can grasp one match-up in StarCraft, and be totally lost in the other 8 (+ vs/as random combinations). The quicker you can learn a game, the more you can define that game as 'easy.' Yeah, you are only playing vs. humans who have to overcome the same things you do, but the skill variability is so high, I think it's very fair to call BW a hard game. Hard to master, that is.
I often find myself thinking 'man, I really just don't have enough time to get good at everything in this game. BroodWar is so hard.' I am a competent player, but I still find myself overwhelmed by the number of things that need to be done when I haven't played a matchup in a long time, especially since the game changes so much, the maps rotate so often... SC is a very difficult game indeed.
That complexity, though, that depth, is what makes every game interesting. Sure it feels like you're bumbling through everything, but sometimes bumbling through a game is very exciting
OP: Getting good at BroodWar just means playing and enjoying the game. You can streamline your learning with micro maps and such, watch FPVODs, think about the game, etc... But in the end the major leaps will be made by trying things in the game and not just copying what's supposed to work, but trying to make your own ideas work and expressing creativity in coming up with solutions to your own strategies.
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There are literally so many things you need to know to be good at brood war (not that I'm actually good). The following are mostly things that are harder in brood war than in sc2.
Walling is really hard, units like to slip through.
Macroing is hard because you can't select multiple buildings.
Micro is hard because no smartcast(?). This is why when people pull off Jangbi style storms, people go crazy. It's extremely difficult to storm quickly and with good spread unless you are incredibly good.
Unit AI is retarded, just try microing dragoons or even moving them around.
Only twelve units per control group makes controlling big armies difficult.
Your peons don't split properly.
No autorepair feature (not that significant).
In general, you need a billion times more apm in scbw to do the stuff you take for granted in sc2.
Just a note:
In my opinion, scbw has some more emphasis on sheer macro, and a bit less on unit comp/countering. I'm not saying that you can just not scout, spam units, and win, but from what I've noticed from playing both bw and sc2, unit combos are a bit more standardized in scbw.
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Damn ... I was coming in here thinking I was going to contribute with some knowledge but people in this thread are being so helpful it's hard to add anything
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Play fast money map for maccro and war3 for micro
np
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10387 Posts
I would not recommend playing on Python for beginners, because the gameflow depends really heavily on positions, nat is rather wide-open, there are islands and no easy gas third. FS is a much better map for relative "noobs" to start playing on (and its really balanced lol)
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Maps:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps
Play one map only until you've learned the basic geography of it. The map preview images in TLPD will help you get an idea of them before playing.
Strategies:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Strategy
Use the tabs to navigate to the matchup that you want to practice. For instance, PvZ:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/PvZ_Strategy
Watch a lot of games. There are many BW threads concerning games of the year, best games, etc. so just by entertaining yourself you'll get a basic idea of strategies, but beyond that you'll need to watch high level replays. If you have a tutor watch replays with him. TL's replay tab on the bottom left still offers BW replays.
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If you are wanting to learn the proper way to wall with your buildings, this link is the greatest link ever devised.
 List of Unit and Building Sizes
Of course, you still have to test if it seals against the cliffs on the map, but this helps SO MUCH.
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How do you all generally find games? is there a ladder I can play on?
thanks for all the help btw. I got good at sc2 by watching a ton of it so that's probably a good way to start. Thanks for all the links to builds / maps too.
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Find games of Brood War, you go to iccup
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My advice to you is to not bother playing bw. Broodwar is way too hard of a game for sc2 players. There is no building grid, no multi building select, and you can only put 12 units on 1 hotkey. The mechanics in bw are too hard for sc2 players
User was warned for this post
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On April 02 2011 10:10 FunTime wrote:
My advice to you is to not bother playing bw. Broodwar is way too hard of a game for sc2 players. There is no building grid, no multi building select, and you can only put 12 units on 1 hotkey. The mechanics in bw are too hard for sc2 players
Just when I think the prejudice toward low post members are beginning to weaken, random people pops in and murks up their reputation all over again 
Edit: Or at minimum, let's please not reopen the rift between BW and SC2 community again. If you are sincere, please understand this post could be interpreted wrongly.
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On April 02 2011 10:14 Hesmyrr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 10:10 FunTime wrote:
My advice to you is to not bother playing bw. Broodwar is way too hard of a game for sc2 players. There is no building grid, no multi building select, and you can only put 12 units on 1 hotkey. The mechanics in bw are too hard for sc2 players Just when I think the prejudice toward low post members are beginning to weaken, random people pops in and murks up their reputation all over again Edit: Or at minimum, let's please not reopen the rift between BW and SC2 community again. If you are sincere, please understand this post could be interpreted wrongly.
So because i have a low post count i know nothing about the game? Thanks for the tip Mr. Post-Elitist. But if you think I dont know what im talking about we can play some bw right now, and hopefully i can show you that its a harder game
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On April 02 2011 02:50 EternaL_9 wrote:
I hope this is thread worthy, but here it goes.
I have never played Brood War. Ever. My only RTS experience is with Starcraft 2, I started in beta and I'm in masters now. I've been very, very interested in brood war though. It's like this mysterious legend of a game that all the pros talk about a lot, but one that I never got to experience.
So I downloaded the game, and in my first game I noticed, obviously, how much harder the mechanics were (simply moving your army, macrong) but a HUGE issue with how bad I am at it is I don't know SHIT about the maps. And to make it worse, they are all dark. I literally have no idea what is around every corner. Hell, I don't even know where my opponents base is. How did you guys learn these maps? Obviously you played on them for years.. but is there any way I can see them without it being fully dark?
What are some easy builds / openers I can do? For example, in starcraft 2 you could tell me to go 3 gate robo into 2 base colossus. That's pretty simple and I know what I should generally look to do in that game. Judging from what artosis says, I could probably just DT drop every game I play and do pretty well! (not to say I want to play protoss, I would play any race but i'm guessing protoss is the most noob friendly)
What are the most standard unit comps? I know it varies, but for another example Stalker / colossus is a pretty standard unit comp. Roach Hydra.. Tank / Marine / Medivac. Sorry if this is too general - but I literally don't know.
maps are fairly symmetrical, you'll get used to this quickly i think
you should learn the game too, in single player/computer/with practice partners or friends before going into iccup because iccup is quite brutal to new people. just make sure you know what all the units can do all the tech etc. a friend who knows the game can tell you what does what etc and look at your game on the fly, so even more helpful. "/join op teamliquid" on iccup and you might find somebody willing to teach you the game. other posters are fairly accurate.
also watching vods of brood war matches will teach you a bit about the game (well at least what units are used in what way etc)
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On April 02 2011 10:10 FunTime wrote:
My advice to you is to not bother playing bw. Broodwar is way too hard of a game for sc2 players. There is no building grid, no multi building select, and you can only put 12 units on 1 hotkey. The mechanics in bw are too hard for sc2 players
User was warned for this post
You call yourself a SKT fan? Shame on you.
It's funny: when SC was released more than a decade ago, NOBODY complained it was too hard.
And it isn't -- everything works as you expect to you like a good analog interface (as in a good grand piano, for example).
Of course, it IS difficult to win against other players, at this point, if you are starting off. But that is a different issue altogether.
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It's true though, what FunTime said. If you're good at SC2 and you want to experience BW that's fine, but it's like going from the NBA to MLB. Maybe a couple of abilities will transfer, but good luck being good at it.
Try it if you want, whatever, it's your life.
Edited: No one complained about BW being hard, really? Boxer switched from P to T because scarb mis-rate, and spawning pool cost 150 minerals. Know how hard it was to play against 4 pools that came that much more early?
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On April 02 2011 10:19 FunTime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 10:14 Hesmyrr wrote:On April 02 2011 10:10 FunTime wrote:
My advice to you is to not bother playing bw. Broodwar is way too hard of a game for sc2 players. There is no building grid, no multi building select, and you can only put 12 units on 1 hotkey. The mechanics in bw are too hard for sc2 players Just when I think the prejudice toward low post members are beginning to weaken, random people pops in and murks up their reputation all over again Edit: Or at minimum, let's please not reopen the rift between BW and SC2 community again. If you are sincere, please understand this post could be interpreted wrongly. So because i have a low post count i know nothing about the game? Thanks for the tip Mr. Post-Elitist. But if you think I dont know what im talking about we can play some bw right now, and hopefully i can show you that its a harder game
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=17883#cmd06
Careful stranger, this is TL you're posting on.
No one doubts BW is a harder game, but post count/join date are important here. Maybe not that guy since he's post sc2 join-date, but one day you might talk back to the wrong guy. *cough*rekrul*cough*
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On April 02 2011 10:45 Ero-Sennin wrote:
It's true though, what FunTime said. If you're good at SC2 and you want to experience BW that's fine, but it's like going from the NBA to MLB. Maybe a couple of abilities will transfer, but good luck being good at it.
Try it if you want, whatever, it's your life.
Edited: No one complained about BW being hard, really? Boxer switched from P to T because scarb mis-rate, and spawning pool cost 150 minerals. Know how hard it was to play against 4 pools that came that much more early?
That is more about a balance thing rather than difficulty.
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TvT I suggest opening 2 fact, then when you're in a decent position, expand.
units: a few marines maybe 1-2 vult at the start, then tank/goliath + dropships for mobility and focusing your power. lots of turrets. Pros use tank/vulture, but I'd suggest avoiding that as it's hard to play with. late game you might see BCs as siege line breakers or avoiders.
tvt is mostly about positioning and getting the gas, not really attacking, but rather holding positions. dropping at key locations in key times, trying to catch the opponent off-guard.
TvP: I personally like FD opening as it's less prone to early pressure and offers a faster expo, but siege expand is fine too.
Here you make vult/tank, later some goliath (and 1-2 vessel) if toss is getting arbiters, or a lot of goliaths if he's getting carriers.
It's about either pushing out and attacking at good timings to abuse some hole in protoss' play or just push a bit out so you can take a new expansion. In the meantime you harras with vultures, and lay mines to limit toss' movement/protect your territory - then turtle to a critical point (upgrades or 200/200, or toss getting carriers or overexpanding) and attack.
TvZ: This can be played either using mech or bio (mm). I suggest bio - 2rax expand (not the oov variation. get cc before the gas/accademy). It's safe and gives you a good map presence and protection against ling allins early + it's safer vs 2 hatch muta that's so popular these days.
Bio units: marine medic (maybe a few firebats), then vessels and maybe some tanks (depending on your style and the map). later vultures with mines are also good at times to protect some positions. in the very late game, when you get more gasses (expansions) you switch to mass tanks supported by some mm, and maybe a few BCs. 1-2 dropships for drops are very often seen too.
Mech units: Tanks/goliaths are the backbone. More hydras->more tanks, more mutas->more goliaths. If he's going mass mutas->vessels (or maybe valkyries). Vultures are useful all around for mines and harrasing, but less so than in tvp. with mech I'd suggest the Fantasy opening.
Here you try to first survive, then slow the zergs 2nd expo, and prevent the 3rd, while keeping his army away from your base.
ZvZ: Probably overpool opening.
units: ling, muta... that's pretty much it. on rare ocasions you can see hive tech -> defiler plague maybe some devourers. or instead of mutaling you can see hydra openings, but those are very very rare. lurks can appear as a counter to hydra, or in hive tech with swarm vs lings.
Here it's mostly about low economy/drone and lots of units+micro. sacrificing economy for a bit earlier tech or more units is usually preferable since it gives the map control to you and allows you to pressure your opponent and keep that pressure.
ZvT: 3 hatch muta is probably the best opening for a new player. just try not to lose mutas, even if you do minimal damage.
units vs bio: lings->mutas (rarely mutaling) -> lurkerling (+ some scourges vs vessels and drops) -> while at 3 gas defiler lurkerling (+scourge) -> 4 gas you can switch to ultraling maybe with a few defilers + sourge and maybe 1-2 lurks, or you can continue defiler lurkerling, but it's pretty hard. later the terran may switch to a more mech like composition, then you add hydras etc.
Here you try to contain the terran as close to his base as you can, and get with swarms to his base if you can, or otherwise just protect your expos and expand to 3->4 bases, while engaging in smart battles or holding positions. when you get 4 bases, you can be more offensive.
units vs mech: there's a few ways of playing it, but it's mostly: low tanks -> more hydra, low goliaths -> more mutas. You can go the swarm way and use MASS ling/hydra/muta with lots of expos, or less expos and faster tech and more pressure on the terran. There are some players who use lurkers early, but I don't really like that, as a smart terran will rape them, as mech units are basically a hard counter to lurks. they mostly only work as a surprise or delay tactic in early/mid game. in the late game they are pretty viable as position holders with swarm.
Here you abuse the mobility of the terran and expand more while harrasing with mutas and backstabbing his base(s) with hydras. Attack him only when cornered or if he's out of position (or if you have a very good tactical/strategical advantage), otherwise AVOID. try to delay his expansions. you also abuse the fact that terrans can't easily replace lost units, while zerg can, so if you gain an advantage in battle, you send wave after wave of units, trying to get advantage of his temporary army deficiency before he regroups.
ZvP:
vs 1 base toss 2 gate zealots: 2 hatches 1-2 sunkens, lings to hold off the rush, then add drones and another hatch at your nat, make a wall with hydra den+hatches, protecting the sunks. drone up to a decent amount. then you can go either mass hydra and some lings, or lurker contain his expo. (mutas can work sometimes too)
vs 1 base tech: 3 hatch (3rd at natural), drone up, get a few hydras to defend vs corsair, then drone a bit more, then mass units. (at least I play so)
vs 2 base fe: I'd probably suggest 4 hatch hydra (3 bases), hydra speed then lurkers (and MASS contain). then hydra range then 4 bases->hive cracklingslurks defense ->ultraling defiler offense.
but most would disagree with me and say 3hatch spire (scourge)->5 hatch hydra->mutas->lurks->ultraling with defilers maybe (and later lurks).
here it's mostly about denying the toss expos while having more expos than him and staying alive (protecting your expos) until hive tech kicks in. there are various timings where there's a shift in power so at times you have to be offensive and other times you have to defend - a mesure of a good zvp player is that he's making a feint of attacking while he actually wants to defend, thus delaying toss' expos. or actively denying expos while he's under pressure by protoss.
you try to abuse your faster unit speed and good dps of zerglings by attacking more fronts at once in the late game (swarm helps greatly).
getting sleepy now, I might continue this tomorrow, don't know if it's useful/correct or if it gives any good insight, sorry if it isn't. use liquipedia for build orders (most are ok, some are wrong/missing though)
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I love that 'prayer strategy' ..
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First advice, practice a bit against the CPU to learn the maps, don't just go and fucking destory them but pretend it's more of a normal game and at least get to 200/200 and take a few bases and identify key map areas to control. Now for matchups, my basic advice:
ZvT i recommend going 2hatch or 3hatch lurkers every game, cause it requires less control and you can play a defensive game. I don't play BW much 'seriously' but when i've played people around my level at D/D+ i can beat people with heavy abuse of lurkers on ramps, sunkens up on ramps and defensive strategies until ultras are out. Then when i've tried muta i lose cause it's much harder.
TvZ if they go muta, push out early with groups of MnM and just pressure really heavily cause it's really hard for them to handle. If they go lurker play more passive with tanks/vessels and drops and let them basically waste units into you, just don't let them easily take too many gas bases.
PvT you can play standard and beat players technically better than you cause honestly at low levels its P > T. Expand to +1 base than they have, defend vulture harass and crush them as soon as they push out with zealot/goon/arbiter. No low level players can push effectively enough. If they slow push just abuse it with recalls, if they push all at once use stasis.
ZvP i suck at this matchup despite it supposedly being easier for Z. Build a lot of hydras and cracklings in general i suppose.
PvZ i suck the other way around as well somehow, mainly cause the Z's i face seem to always do some kind of all-in or annoying as shit lurker contain. Just abuse speedlots a lot since they are hard to deal with, don't even let them macro up at all. Don't try cute stuff like sair/reaver it's too hard. Infact i actually like going 2gate instead of Forge FE which is the total standard cause weaker players have a harder time dealing with it, and it gives you map control.
TvP this is just really hard for new players, i always try some early push like 2fact or at least something from 2base cause it gets way too hard to keep up later on, it's just insane.
Mirrors i won't bother saying about, i'd say get better at the other stuff with a race before playing the mirrors. This is just my opinions from my experiences as a low level player, without resorting to very cheesy and unhelpful-to-learning strategies, but at the same time giving you a chance to actually win; Cause going into the game and trying strategies like 2hatch muta will make you lose repeatedly probably and thats no fun at all.
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On April 02 2011 10:19 FunTime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2011 10:14 Hesmyrr wrote:On April 02 2011 10:10 FunTime wrote:
My advice to you is to not bother playing bw. Broodwar is way too hard of a game for sc2 players. There is no building grid, no multi building select, and you can only put 12 units on 1 hotkey. The mechanics in bw are too hard for sc2 players Just when I think the prejudice toward low post members are beginning to weaken, random people pops in and murks up their reputation all over again Edit: Or at minimum, let's please not reopen the rift between BW and SC2 community again. If you are sincere, please understand this post could be interpreted wrongly. So because i have a low post count i know nothing about the game? Thanks for the tip Mr. Post-Elitist. But if you think I dont know what im talking about we can play some bw right now, and hopefully i can show you that its a harder game
We have no doubt brood war mechanics are tricker to master than sc2 mechanics. But you're making generalizations that are uninformed and offend people, so you should just stop. Thanks.
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On April 02 2011 02:50 EternaL_9 wrote:
I hope this is thread worthy, but here it goes.
I have never played Brood War. Ever. My only RTS experience is with Starcraft 2, I started in beta and I'm in masters now. I've been very, very interested in brood war though. It's like this mysterious legend of a game that all the pros talk about a lot, but one that I never got to experience.
So I downloaded the game, and in my first game I noticed, obviously, how much harder the mechanics were (simply moving your army, macrong) but a HUGE issue with how bad I am at it is I don't know SHIT about the maps. And to make it worse, they are all dark. I literally have no idea what is around every corner. Hell, I don't even know where my opponents base is. How did you guys learn these maps? Obviously you played on them for years.. but is there any way I can see them without it being fully dark?
What are some easy builds / openers I can do? For example, in starcraft 2 you could tell me to go 3 gate robo into 2 base colossus. That's pretty simple and I know what I should generally look to do in that game. Judging from what artosis says, I could probably just DT drop every game I play and do pretty well! (not to say I want to play protoss, I would play any race but i'm guessing protoss is the most noob friendly)
What are the most standard unit comps? I know it varies, but for another example Stalker / colossus is a pretty standard unit comp. Roach Hydra.. Tank / Marine / Medivac. Sorry if this is too general - but I literally don't know.
This game is nothing like SC2, there are no unit damage bonuses and there ARE cliff advantages.
Yes, your composition of units does matter, but not to the extent like in sc2. For example, dragoons are known to counter vultures, but if you're good with spidermines, vultures can poop on dragoons all day. This never happens in sc2 because of the damage bonuses like I said before
some things you might want to know:
*Normal attacking units deal full damage to everything (marines, zealots, zerglings)
*Explosive damamge deals full damage to large units, 3/4 damage to medium sized, and 50% to small.
(Hydralisk, Siege tanks, wraiths.. etc)
*Concussive damage deals full damage to small units, 1/2 damage to medium, and 1/4 to large sized units.
(ghosts, vultures, etc)
you can look up alot more information on liquidpedia
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EPT
