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On August 09 2010 10:05 sung_moon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:01 aimaimaim wrote:
fanboys will be fanboys ..
Blame canata for not doing what he did .. many years in the scene, he should have done something better ..
blame bisu for his predictable BO ..
<3 hyuk for putting up a great last fight .. what he needs is decision making .. and moar scourge .. scourge for wut? flashes vessels were chilling behind 9078139 turrets but meh. once he did snipe vessels when flash was pushing out, the vessels were the least of hyuk's worries canata for the "worst proxy of the year" award maybe?
lol still that game could have gone a different way if he had scourge with his army of mutas ..
KT just read SKT like a book in game 1 - 3 .. they read best but still he was too much for Forgg lol
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I was disappointed, I wanted to see an ACE match.
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On August 09 2010 09:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:
[I love how you live in this fantasy land where bisu didn't have reinforcements. Bisu had 2 rounds of reinforcements by the time he GG'd. Stats reinforcements were 4 zealots and 4 templars (8 gatess)
I clearly stated in my post that was the initial battle .
After the first battle Bisu retreated and have reinforcements but at that point there was nothing he could do, Stats had a massive horde of units closing in.
Stats reinforcements were 4 zealots and 4 templars (8 gatess)
I loled at that, he had a control group of zeals as reinforcement for the initial battle, then 2 control groups of whatever it is for the next battle, then after that your "4 zealots and 4 templars".
The deciding battle is the initial battle, not the 2nd, 3rd... or whatever.
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On August 09 2010 10:18 kmdarkmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 09:59 TwoToneTerran wrote:
[I love how you live in this fantasy land where bisu didn't have reinforcements. Bisu had 2 rounds of reinforcements by the time he GG'd. Stats reinforcements were 4 zealots and 4 templars (8 gatess) I clearly stated in my post that was the initial battle . After the first battle Bisu retreated and have reinforcements but at that point there was nothing he could do, Stats had a massive horde of units closing in.
Stats reinforcements were 4 zealots and 4 templars (8 gatess) I loled at that, he had a control group of zeals as reinforcement for the initial battle, then 2 control groups of whatever it is for the next battle, then after that your "4 zealots and 4 templars". The deciding battle is the initial battle, not the 2nd, 3rd... or whatever.
Okay so in your magical world Stats gets 3 production rounds in a fight and Bisu gets none? In that case I guess Bisu is just really bad at macro.
Incoming units means nothing if both players are macroing correctly. The only difference is if there was a previous advantage that allowed one player to obtain more funded unit producing structures, which stats had because of his early 2nd and 3rd.
edit -- basically I'm saying, both players engaged in pretty similar style: Both stormed fast and had their zealots push in after their goons/archons took a few shots (as is typical in big PvP engagements). Stats used all his storms on goons -- 5 of them. Bisu used all his on zealots and archons, which is a lot, 22 zeals and 4 archons by my count. While at the end of the fight Bisu technically came out ahead in pure supply exchange, Stats had casted all the storms he intended to with the killed templars, and lost no archons and, like, 2 goons by the time Bisu was in full retreat. A lot more zealots died because he was intentionally running them through storm and goon fire. Zealots are meatshields, that's what they do, so Stats (who over the course of the whole fight had 28 zealots if you count the first reinforcing gorup, had about 12 by the end. He lost a little over half his zealots, 2/9 goons and no archons.
Bisu, while he did get out with 10 of his original 18 goons (that I counted), and a dt and templar, he lost his 6 zeals and archon and nearly all of his goons were in the red health as the follow up showed -- most of his goons died to 1 zealot and 1 archon hit on the follow up.
Basically, Bisu's storms took out more psi by concentrating on zealots, but Stat's did more damage to the stronger units in the dragoons. They both played perfectly fine, Stats just had a much bigger army. It did look smaller than it should be by comparison but his latest production round was mostly templar whereas bisu made zealots and DTs to rush to the fight and get a few token weakened zealot kills.
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On August 09 2010 10:08 aimaimaim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:05 sung_moon wrote:On August 09 2010 10:01 aimaimaim wrote:
fanboys will be fanboys ..
Blame canata for not doing what he did .. many years in the scene, he should have done something better ..
blame bisu for his predictable BO ..
<3 hyuk for putting up a great last fight .. what he needs is decision making .. and moar scourge .. scourge for wut? flashes vessels were chilling behind 9078139 turrets but meh. once he did snipe vessels when flash was pushing out, the vessels were the least of hyuk's worries canata for the "worst proxy of the year" award maybe? lol still that game could have gone a different way if he had scourge with his army of mutas .. KT just read SKT like a book in game 1 - 3 .. they read best but still he was too much for Forgg lol
Uh not really... Forgg playing a macro game against best? I think by the time Best attacked best had 200/200 and forgg had 120?
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On August 09 2010 11:35 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:08 aimaimaim wrote:On August 09 2010 10:05 sung_moon wrote:On August 09 2010 10:01 aimaimaim wrote:
fanboys will be fanboys ..
Blame canata for not doing what he did .. many years in the scene, he should have done something better ..
blame bisu for his predictable BO ..
<3 hyuk for putting up a great last fight .. what he needs is decision making .. and moar scourge .. scourge for wut? flashes vessels were chilling behind 9078139 turrets but meh. once he did snipe vessels when flash was pushing out, the vessels were the least of hyuk's worries canata for the "worst proxy of the year" award maybe? lol still that game could have gone a different way if he had scourge with his army of mutas .. KT just read SKT like a book in game 1 - 3 .. they read best but still he was too much for Forgg lol Uh not really... Forgg playing a macro game against best? I think by the time Best attacked best had 200/200 and forgg had 120?
KT could very well snipe Best with Hoejja or Firefist but they're hardcore gays and wanted to see Best naked body so ...
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On August 09 2010 11:35 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:08 aimaimaim wrote:On August 09 2010 10:05 sung_moon wrote:On August 09 2010 10:01 aimaimaim wrote:
fanboys will be fanboys ..
Blame canata for not doing what he did .. many years in the scene, he should have done something better ..
blame bisu for his predictable BO ..
<3 hyuk for putting up a great last fight .. what he needs is decision making .. and moar scourge .. scourge for wut? flashes vessels were chilling behind 9078139 turrets but meh. once he did snipe vessels when flash was pushing out, the vessels were the least of hyuk's worries canata for the "worst proxy of the year" award maybe? lol still that game could have gone a different way if he had scourge with his army of mutas .. KT just read SKT like a book in game 1 - 3 .. they read best but still he was too much for Forgg lol Uh not really... Forgg playing a macro game against best? I think by the time Best attacked best had 200/200 and forgg had 120?
I blame ForGG for trading his base for probes ..
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On August 09 2010 11:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Okay so in your magical world Stats gets 3 production rounds in a fight and Bisu gets none? In that case I guess Bisu is just really bad at macro.
Hey guy, plz respect those who are in a conversation with you, that behavior only makes your arguments look silly.
In the initial battle, Bisu had almost no reinforcement (1-2 zeals or goons), Stats had one round of reinforcement (that is what I stated in my 2 posts - the initial battle man)
In the follow-up battle, Bisu had 2 rounds of reinforcement, but Stats had another 2,5 control groups of reinforcement, and this battle isn't important at all, Bisu had already lost.
The later things you said in your post is true, except that you didn't count Stats's templar and one archon lost (at the start he had 4 archons, after the battle he had 3, I didn't see it die but where did it go ? ) , and Bisu had > 10 goons at the end. We must take in consideration that Bisu's force is smaller and therefore when you kill more than your opponent that demonstrated your skill - he only had that skill anyways, since his macro and build order sucked during his latest several PvP games.
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On August 08 2010 05:10 d_so wrote:
it's not a BO snipe if your opponent does the same thing every game on that map and refuses to adapt to circumstances.
Well I've been avoiding the thread since it was bound to become an argument, and it did. But I've got to say I'm tremendously disappointed that Bisu didn't mix up his opening builds, especially when the build he used did not actually provide him with an early game advantage in most of the games he played.
"refuses to adapt to circumstances" isn't a valid complaint against his opening though, since Bisu's opening build played out before scouting revealed anything that could have been a sign for Bisu to change things. The real problem was being totally predictable, which I'm not the first to state.
The thing is, if Bisu did what he did with the same builds, then mixed it up for a key game, he'd be a genius because he'd have trained his opponents to expect that build and then totally surprised them with something else. But he didn't. And there were so many builds that would have gained at least a small advantage over the build that was custom-made to counter Bisu's tired opening build.
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On August 09 2010 18:12 kmdarkmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 11:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Okay so in your magical world Stats gets 3 production rounds in a fight and Bisu gets none? In that case I guess Bisu is just really bad at macro.
Hey guy, plz respect those who are in a conversation with you, that behavior only makes your arguments look silly. In the initial battle, Bisu had almost no reinforcement (1-2 zeals or goons), Stats had one round of reinforcement (that is what I stated in my 2 posts - the initial battle man) In the follow-up battle, Bisu had 2 rounds of reinforcement, but Stats had another 2,5 control groups of reinforcement, and this battle isn't important at all, Bisu had already lost. The later things you said in your post is true, except that you didn't count Stats's templar and one archon lost (at the start he had 4 archons, after the battle he had 3, I didn't see it die but where did it go ? ) , and Bisu had > 10 goons at the end. We must take in consideration that Bisu's force is smaller and therefore when you kill more than your opponent that demonstrated your skill - he only had that skill anyways, since his macro and build order sucked during his latest several PvP games.
I'm just wondering where your criticism of stats is. He did everything he should've in that engagement -- use zealots to soak up storms, use archons to counter Bisu's few zealost, and waited to engage with his goons until it was safe and they could dish out damage, whereas he used all of his storms and put a ton of damage on Bisu's units. Coupled with his obviously working macro he did no better or worse than Bisu in that engagement and it showed because he won, given the advantage he had.
Also I think you have a weird concept of control groups. Stats barely made 12 units to reinforce (1 control group), much less 2.5 being 30.
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On August 09 2010 12:57 nayumi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 11:35 saltywet wrote:On August 09 2010 10:08 aimaimaim wrote:On August 09 2010 10:05 sung_moon wrote:On August 09 2010 10:01 aimaimaim wrote:
fanboys will be fanboys ..
Blame canata for not doing what he did .. many years in the scene, he should have done something better ..
blame bisu for his predictable BO ..
<3 hyuk for putting up a great last fight .. what he needs is decision making .. and moar scourge .. scourge for wut? flashes vessels were chilling behind 9078139 turrets but meh. once he did snipe vessels when flash was pushing out, the vessels were the least of hyuk's worries canata for the "worst proxy of the year" award maybe? lol still that game could have gone a different way if he had scourge with his army of mutas .. KT just read SKT like a book in game 1 - 3 .. they read best but still he was too much for Forgg lol Uh not really... Forgg playing a macro game against best? I think by the time Best attacked best had 200/200 and forgg had 120? KT could very well snipe Best with Hoejja or Firefist but they're hardcore gays and wanted to see Best naked body so ...
I think everyone at the finals wanted to see his body.
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On August 10 2010 14:07 TwoToneTerran wrote:
I'm just wondering where your criticism of stats is. He did everything he should've in that engagement -- use zealots to soak up storms, use archons to counter Bisu's few zealost, and waited to engage with his goons until it was safe and they could dish out damage, whereas he used all of his storms and put a ton of damage on Bisu's units.
But there was no criticism of stats in my posts, in this case what he did (more macro, less micro) was more than enough to ensure him the win (which was the right choice) and if Bisu was in Stats's position he would do the same. What I was trying to prove is Bisu's incredible ability to win battles with lesser force (in this case he didn't win because the gap was too much but he did kill more than the opponent and kill important units, which is not bad at all, considering the fact that lesser force = get more hits = more dead). Of course Stats was every way better than Bisu in that match and his win was more than deserved. If Best win against a Protoss B-teamer by running his hordes of units into enemy expos without micro at all I can't say that the B-teamer is better than Best because he micros better lol.
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On August 09 2010 11:35 saltywet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2010 10:08 aimaimaim wrote:On August 09 2010 10:05 sung_moon wrote:On August 09 2010 10:01 aimaimaim wrote:
fanboys will be fanboys ..
Blame canata for not doing what he did .. many years in the scene, he should have done something better ..
blame bisu for his predictable BO ..
<3 hyuk for putting up a great last fight .. what he needs is decision making .. and moar scourge .. scourge for wut? flashes vessels were chilling behind 9078139 turrets but meh. once he did snipe vessels when flash was pushing out, the vessels were the least of hyuk's worries canata for the "worst proxy of the year" award maybe? lol still that game could have gone a different way if he had scourge with his army of mutas .. KT just read SKT like a book in game 1 - 3 .. they read best but still he was too much for Forgg lol Uh not really... Forgg playing a macro game against best? I think by the time Best attacked best had 200/200 and forgg had 120?
I dont think that difference in food can come about in pro level matches with both playing macro style, if forgg was 120 no way best was maxed
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Remember all the hope? Remember all the successive cheers as SKT1 seemed to fulfill all the fanboys dreams? Remember that?
Now keep remembering. Keep thinking. Draw your brain to that special spot, right before the first game on Heartbreak Ridge (oh how apt of a name) began, right before the moment when you saw Violet laughing in Canata's face as he saw the poor SKT Terran flailing about with a poorly executed proxy-rax, right before Bisu's first DT got perfectly deflected by Stats' observer, right before Flash crushed Hyuk like a T-800 on a human skull.
Oh wait. I'm sorry I just spoiled your daydreaming.
But the bigger question is--did you learn? Did you learn your lesson, not to predict with that premature arrogance, that you will win?
I guess not. But for your benefit, for your education, here's a bump.
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Giving Flash double MSL/OSL gold last season + Show Spoiler +right before Hyuk crushed hyuked Flash like a T-800 on a human skull. 
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:S Did you bump a 09 thread with a paste off your blog post.
Mmm... didn't know Zona was that huge an SKT fan, haha.
What's up with the SKT attention today o_o
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EPT
