EPTMatch-Fixing Trial updates (24/06/2010) - Page 6
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
Also, don't fucking act like we are talking about some stupid, irrelevant personal life stuff. We are talking about how he treated his fans and the game that they love. No, I don't give a shit how many chicks he hooks up with at clubs or what he does in his free time. But I happen to care when this selfish dick betrays everything for a pair of shoes. Stop trying to separate the two. sAviOr the StarCraft player was a revolutionary player but also the StarCraft player who said fuck you to his fans and the game that made him so successful. This isn't some personal life bullshit. This will be my last post in this thread. I have said everything I wanted to here. | ||
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Husmusen
Sweden92 Posts
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Navi
5286 Posts
On June 26 2010 14:04 OneOther wrote: The order doesn't matter. People can put varying emphasis on what he did in terms of harming the game and the scene. That's fine. It comes down to what individuals care about more. I am willing to give him credit for what he did as a player - I repeat, he was a great player - but I view players as more than just robots who click buttons. The fact that he doesn't care about his fans, the game, and his integrity is a big deal to me. And it should be for all fans. I am okay with you putting his achievements/skills higher than what he did. It will still always be a part of him, and that's just who he is. From the very beginning, I was arguing against people who were saying that his legacy isn't tainted. Thanks for proving my point. The "order" may be dependent on what you value more but ultimately this will haunt him forever. Also, don't fucking act like we are talking about some stupid, irrelevant personal life stuff. We are talking about how he treated his fans and the game that they love. No, I don't give a shit how many chicks he hooks up with at clubs or what he does in his free time. But I happen to care when this selfish dick betrays everything for a pair of shoes. Stop trying to separate the two. sAviOr the StarCraft player was a revolutionary player but also the StarCraft player who said fuck you to his fans and the game that made him so successful. This isn't some personal life bullshit. This will be my last post in this thread. I have said everything I wanted to here. i think koreasilver is taking offense to your use of opinion as fact; his legacy IS, etc. etc., when it boils down to his "legacy" meaning different things to different people. for instance, you mention how you "view players as more than just robots who click buttons" while some other fan may appreciate their mechanics far more than the progamers as television personalities. i personally agree that his image is ruined and personally believe that his actions, in total, actually take away from his achievements in the game (because of its negative effects on esports), but it just felt like you were arguing over silver's head. i know you won't respond to this, but just to throw it out there  | ||
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chongu
Malaysia2589 Posts
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pieisamazing
United States1234 Posts
On June 26 2010 13:16 OneOther wrote: Yes, he is. Nobody said he wasn't. My point is, he will always be remembered as a cheater/liar and someone who cared about nothing except himself, but also happened to be a great, influential player. Not a great player who cheated. That's his legacy. Savior is baller. Edit: Also, stop trying to pass off your opinions as fact. I will always remember Savior as a great player and a genius, and so will many, many other people. | ||
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TryThis
Canada1522 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On June 26 2010 15:33 pieisamazing wrote: Savior is baller. Edit: Also, stop trying to pass off your opinions as fact. I will always remember Savior as a great player and a genius, and so will many, many other people. Lol damn you really have to make me break my promise. First, you don't even understand what my argument was to begin with and you jump in to tell me what I shouldn't do. Look, the only reason I posted in this thread to begin with was that some people claimed his legacy took no damage at all. I argued against that and said people will put different emphasis on his cheating/lying, but what he did will be remembered further down the road. Some people probably don't care, others care a lot. It doesn't matter, it's still a huge part of sAvior's career as a progamer. Getting banned from the league after lying to the public about his cheating won't all of sudden be forgotten from our community. Maybe some individuals like you will forget it, if you don't care at all about the god damn game and the scene, but not from his history as a StarCraft player. Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it. Legacy isn't formed by one fan. Stop trying to teach me please. Thanks. EDIT: For the last time, I am not taking away anything from what he did as a player. He was a revolutionary, great player who had a lot of influence on the game's development. When people argue that this whole fiasco doesn't affect his legacy at all, now, that's ridiculous. | ||
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
You choose to put more emphasis on the person more than their work so obviously we'll take it differently. To me, when it comes to the game Savior the person doesn't mean much at all compared to his work. The legacy of Savior the person is obviously tainted for good, I mean, he's banned from playing ever again after all. However, the legacy of Savior's work doesn't get tainted by any of it. The work is still work and it goes beyond the person. To judge someone's work based on who they are is fallacious. Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it. Isn't the presence of dissenting views in this forum not an indication that not everyone thinks the way you do? Once again, your opinion and the opinion of others, regardless of majority or not, does not make something objective. You have your opinion and I have mine because we interpret things differently. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
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BlackMagister
United States5834 Posts
On June 26 2010 16:27 koreasilver wrote: You choose to put more emphasis on the person more than their work so obviously we'll take it differently. To me, when it comes to the game Savior the person doesn't mean much at all compared to his work. The legacy of Savior the person is obviously tainted for good, I mean, he's banned from playing ever again after all. However, the legacy of Savior's work doesn't get tainted by any of it. The work is still work and it goes beyond the person. To judge someone's work based on who they are is fallacious. Yeah but that's the thing. It's not like Savior and these other players beat up a child, had sex with a married woman or is a racist, what they did wrong was in the very area they became famous for. The separation between the person and their work more applies to someone like Tiger Woods than Savior. Yes the games where he defined Zerg and his title wins probably weren't secret betting matches but he destroyed the honor of his career by throwing any of his games. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
I simply believe that an individual's work goes beyond the individual and the individual's beliefs and actions. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On June 26 2010 16:27 koreasilver wrote: Isn't the presence of dissenting views in this forum not an indication that not everyone thinks the way you do? Once again, your opinion and the opinion of others, regardless of majority or not, does not make something objective. You have your opinion and I have mine because we interpret things differently. And "how the community as a whole views it" is the aggregate of those opinions. The fact that Savior's match fixing didn't damage *your* opinion of him doesn't change the fact that because there are others who had their opinions changed, overall, Savior's legacy as a player is damaged. On June 26 2010 16:45 koreasilver wrote: Does that change anything of the work that he was influential for though? No, not at all. You can apply this to any kind of artist who's later output was just outright bad, insulting, totally lacking of self-respect, etc. It ruined their careers and destroyed respect that people had for them as a person but it still doesn't change that the work that they produced that had a significant impact still retains those merits despite of what that person had done and become later. I do not believe it is much different for Savior. I don't have any respect left for him as a person but my respect for his earlier work remains intact with no difference from before this whole scandal. His self-harm was a malicious act against his own work and really wasn't an actual work product. It was a personal action. I simply believe that an individual's work goes beyond the individual and the individual's beliefs and actions. I think part of this boils down to a discussion of progamers-as-entertainers or progamers-as-intellectuals. It is true that Savior advanced the level of play, and developed the theory of the game. But from the standpoint of viewing progamers as entertainers, that has no inherent value. Savior's "legacy" in that regard is the entertaining play he brought to the table and how he entered the hearts and minds of his fans. And in that sense, giving a big "fuck you" to his fans by trading their regard for money is damaging to his legacy. Because the legacy of an entertainer is ultimately built on the opinions of those who he entertained. | ||
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