Match-Fixing Trial updates (24/06/2010) - Page 6

koreasilver

9109 Posts

June 26 2010 04:06 GMT

#101

And I'm not trying to. The thing is, there's just so much knee-jerk reactions coming from tons and tons of people here against Savior because of this. The title of "bonjwa" came from the prowess he had over the game, not over his moral character. He's a fuckup and he was rightly banned from the game but that still doesn't change that he was one of the most important players in the history of the game. He is arguably only second to iloveoov when it comes to the development of the game.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

June 26 2010 04:16 GMT

#102

Yes, he is. Nobody said he wasn't. My point is, he will always be remembered as a cheater/liar and someone who cared about nothing except himself, but also happened to be a great, influential player. Not a great player who cheated. That's his legacy.

koreasilver

9109 Posts

June 26 2010 04:25 GMT

#103

Really? That's just your own view then. Savior as the player will come before me when I think about BW the game. And I am sure there will be many others who will remember Savior primarily as the artist, not the asshole.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

June 26 2010 04:32 GMT

#104

Uh, no, it's not my own view and the order doesn't really matter. That's how he's perceived in Korea, based on Netizen reactions and what they are saying. And also for a lot of people who care about the game and its future. What are you even arguing for? I agreed with what you were saying from the beginning and you just repeated yourself for the last three posts that he was a great/influential player. Okay. I even said that in my very first post.

koreasilver

9109 Posts

June 26 2010 04:40 GMT

#105

The order does matter. When I think of BW the game then the personal character of each player comes second to how they play the game. When we talk about how strategy developed in the game we're going to discuss players in how they played the game, not what they did in their personal lives. When we discuss how much of a change Jaedong brought to ZvZ throughout his career we're going to be talking about his gameplay, not how good his dancing is or whether or not he's a cheapskate or not. Regardless of the severity of Savior's misgivings I'm going to continue looking back at his games from the viewpoint of the advancement of the game in strategy and tactics, not his immorality. Netizens are the kings of knee-jerk reactions anyway, and it still doesn't change that it's the view of individuals in the end. I've seen a lot of people still put Savior the player before Savior the match fixer when it comes to how they view his past on this site as well. It is your own view regardless of how the majority of any community reacts. To put it as if your view is the objective and the truth and not of an opinion is disingenuous at best.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

June 26 2010 05:04 GMT

#106

The order doesn't matter. People can put varying emphasis on what he did in terms of harming the game and the scene. That's fine. It comes down to what individuals care about more. I am willing to give him credit for what he did as a player - I repeat, he was a great player - but I view players as more than just robots who click buttons. The fact that he doesn't care about his fans, the game, and his integrity is a big deal to me. And it should be for all fans. I am okay with you putting his achievements/skills higher than what he did. It will still always be a part of him, and that's just who he is. From the very beginning, I was arguing against people who were saying that his legacy isn't tainted. Thanks for proving my point. The "order" may be dependent on what you value more but ultimately this will haunt him forever.

Also, don't fucking act like we are talking about some stupid, irrelevant personal life stuff. We are talking about how he treated his fans and the game that they love. No, I don't give a shit how many chicks he hooks up with at clubs or what he does in his free time. But I happen to care when this selfish dick betrays everything for a pair of shoes. Stop trying to separate the two. sAviOr the StarCraft player was a revolutionary player but also the StarCraft player who said fuck you to his fans and the game that made him so successful. This isn't some personal life bullshit.

This will be my last post in this thread. I have said everything I wanted to here.

Husmusen

Sweden92 Posts

June 26 2010 05:12 GMT

#107

I cant even go 3hatch muta anymore coz im so disgusted with him

Navi

5286 Posts

June 26 2010 05:32 GMT

#108

On June 26 2010 14:04 OneOther wrote:
The order doesn't matter. People can put varying emphasis on what he did in terms of harming the game and the scene. That's fine. It comes down to what individuals care about more. I am willing to give him credit for what he did as a player - I repeat, he was a great player - but I view players as more than just robots who click buttons. The fact that he doesn't care about his fans, the game, and his integrity is a big deal to me. And it should be for all fans. I am okay with you putting his achievements/skills higher than what he did. It will still always be a part of him, and that's just who he is. From the very beginning, I was arguing against people who were saying that his legacy isn't tainted. Thanks for proving my point. The "order" may be dependent on what you value more but ultimately this will haunt him forever.

Also, don't fucking act like we are talking about some stupid, irrelevant personal life stuff. We are talking about how he treated his fans and the game that they love. No, I don't give a shit how many chicks he hooks up with at clubs or what he does in his free time. But I happen to care when this selfish dick betrays everything for a pair of shoes. Stop trying to separate the two. sAviOr the StarCraft player was a revolutionary player but also the StarCraft player who said fuck you to his fans and the game that made him so successful. This isn't some personal life bullshit.

This will be my last post in this thread. I have said everything I wanted to here.

i think koreasilver is taking offense to your use of opinion as fact; his legacy IS, etc. etc., when it boils down to his "legacy" meaning different things to different people. for instance, you mention how you "view players as more than just robots who click buttons" while some other fan may appreciate their mechanics far more than the progamers as television personalities. i personally agree that his image is ruined and personally believe that his actions, in total, actually take away from his achievements in the game (because of its negative effects on esports), but it just felt like you were arguing over silver's head.

i know you won't respond to this, but just to throw it out there

chongu

Malaysia2585 Posts

June 26 2010 05:36 GMT

#109

so, Is sAviOr getting any jail time? or other penalties?

pieisamazing

United States1234 Posts

June 26 2010 06:33 GMT

#110

On June 26 2010 13:16 OneOther wrote:
Yes, he is. Nobody said he wasn't. My point is, he will always be remembered as a cheater/liar and someone who cared about nothing except himself, but also happened to be a great, influential player. Not a great player who cheated. That's his legacy.

Savior is baller.

Edit: Also, stop trying to pass off your opinions as fact. I will always remember Savior as a great player and a genius, and so will many, many other people.

TryThis

Canada1522 Posts

June 26 2010 06:47 GMT

#111

this thread is so sad. although it is for sure the end of the man whole inspired so many to sit down with mouse in hand. I still see him like i used too, or do my best to keep it that way. sure he fucked up, but all said and done he is still one of the greatest to play the game. Don't let one mistake ruin all that he did for progaming.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

June 26 2010 06:52 GMT

#112

On June 26 2010 15:33 pieisamazing wrote:

Show nested quote +

Savior is baller.

Edit: Also, stop trying to pass off your opinions as fact. I will always remember Savior as a great player and a genius, and so will many, many other people.

Lol damn you really have to make me break my promise. First, you don't even understand what my argument was to begin with and you jump in to tell me what I shouldn't do. Look, the only reason I posted in this thread to begin with was that some people claimed his legacy took no damage at all. I argued against that and said people will put different emphasis on his cheating/lying, but what he did will be remembered further down the road. Some people probably don't care, others care a lot. It doesn't matter, it's still a huge part of sAvior's career as a progamer. Getting banned from the league after lying to the public about his cheating won't all of sudden be forgotten from our community. Maybe some individuals like you will forget it, if you don't care at all about the god damn game and the scene, but not from his history as a StarCraft player. Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it. Legacy isn't formed by one fan. Stop trying to teach me please. Thanks.

EDIT: For the last time, I am not taking away anything from what he did as a player. He was a revolutionary, great player who had a lot of influence on the game's development. When people argue that this whole fiasco doesn't affect his legacy at all, now, that's ridiculous.

BlackMagister

United States5834 Posts

June 26 2010 07:04 GMT

#113

I definitely agree with OneOther, big Sparkyz fan and the reason I became a fan was the twins and then eventually started to like Type-B and gogo but the fact they tainted their career for some money overshadows their achievements. Of course they didn't accomplish as much as Savior but they still had fans like me who not only admired their play but personality and dedication to Starcraft.

koreasilver

9109 Posts

June 26 2010 07:27 GMT

#114

We're both neither saying that his influence on the game or the scandal doesn't effect the other or anything, but rather arguing about whether Savior the player precedes Savior the person or vice-versa. Just like I care more about Heidegger's work itself above who Heidegger was, I care more about Savior's work itself more than the actual person. Doesn't mean that I don't think the two were assholes, but whether or not they were has no place when it comes to their work itself. Does Heidegger's early philosophy become reduced in value because of his political alignment that he held in his life? Most definitely not. Heidegger's legacy is enormous. I choose to keep the work of a person detached from the person themselves when I judge it. And so do many people in various academical streams.

You choose to put more emphasis on the person more than their work so obviously we'll take it differently. To me, when it comes to the game Savior the person doesn't mean much at all compared to his work. The legacy of Savior the person is obviously tainted for good, I mean, he's banned from playing ever again after all. However, the legacy of Savior's work doesn't get tainted by any of it. The work is still work and it goes beyond the person. To judge someone's work based on who they are is fallacious.

Just because you decide to use selective memory and forget what he did, that doesn't change anything about how the community as a whole views it.

Isn't the presence of dissenting views in this forum not an indication that not everyone thinks the way you do? Once again, your opinion and the opinion of others, regardless of majority or not, does not make something objective. You have your opinion and I have mine because we interpret things differently.

Grobyc

Canada18410 Posts

June 26 2010 07:31 GMT

#115

bleh ._.

Lightwip

United States5497 Posts

June 26 2010 07:33 GMT

#116

So, it turned out how we thought it would. Can't say I'm happy about that

BlackMagister

United States5834 Posts

June 26 2010 07:39 GMT

#117

On June 26 2010 16:27 koreasilver wrote:
You choose to put more emphasis on the person more than their work so obviously we'll take it differently. To me, when it comes to the game Savior the person doesn't mean much at all compared to his work. The legacy of Savior the person is obviously tainted for good, I mean, he's banned from playing ever again after all. However, the legacy of Savior's work doesn't get tainted by any of it. The work is still work and it goes beyond the person. To judge someone's work based on who they are is fallacious.

Yeah but that's the thing. It's not like Savior and these other players beat up a child, had sex with a married woman or is a racist, what they did wrong was in the very area they became famous for. The separation between the person and their work more applies to someone like Tiger Woods than Savior. Yes the games where he defined Zerg and his title wins probably weren't secret betting matches but he destroyed the honor of his career by throwing any of his games.

OneOther

United States10774 Posts

June 26 2010 07:45 GMT

#118

That's not what I was arguing. Yes, it was my opinion that this overshadows what he accomplished as a player and the effect he had on the gaming scene, but if you read my first post, you will see that I was simply saying that his legacy is forever tainted and there's no other way around it. For some people, it's a really big deal, for others, not as much. I don't want to separate him as a player and a person, because I expect players to be more than just robots. I respect their dedication and love for the game. The fact that he threw that away affects the way I see him as a player. Your examples of artists are a bit different - sAvior directly harmed the very thing that made him successful and the fans love. That's why the "order" that we are talking about doesn't really matter. I don't necessarily separate him as a player and a person. Why? Because it's not some irrelevant personal life that we are talking about.

koreasilver

9109 Posts

June 26 2010 07:45 GMT

#119

Does that change anything of the work that he was influential for though? No, not at all. You can apply this to any kind of artist who's later output was just outright bad, insulting, totally lacking of self-respect, etc. It ruined their careers and destroyed respect that people had for them as a person but it still doesn't change that the work that they produced that had a significant impact still retains those merits despite of what that person had done and become later. I do not believe it is much different for Savior. I don't have any respect left for him as a person but my respect for his earlier work remains intact with no difference from before this whole scandal. His self-harm was a malicious act against his own work and really wasn't an actual work product. It was a personal action.

I simply believe that an individual's work goes beyond the individual and the individual's beliefs and actions.

TheYango

United States47024 Posts

June 26 2010 07:53 GMT

#120

On June 26 2010 16:27 koreasilver wrote:

Show nested quote +

And "how the community as a whole views it" is the aggregate of those opinions. The fact that Savior's match fixing didn't damage *your* opinion of him doesn't change the fact that because there are others who had their opinions changed, overall, Savior's legacy as a player is damaged.

On June 26 2010 16:45 koreasilver wrote:
Does that change anything of the work that he was influential for though? No, not at all. You can apply this to any kind of artist who's later output was just outright bad, insulting, totally lacking of self-respect, etc. It ruined their careers and destroyed respect that people had for them as a person but it still doesn't change that the work that they produced that had a significant impact still retains those merits despite of what that person had done and become later. I do not believe it is much different for Savior. I don't have any respect left for him as a person but my respect for his earlier work remains intact with no difference from before this whole scandal. His self-harm was a malicious act against his own work and really wasn't an actual work product. It was a personal action.

I simply believe that an individual's work goes beyond the individual and the individual's beliefs and actions.

I think part of this boils down to a discussion of progamers-as-entertainers or progamers-as-intellectuals. It is true that Savior advanced the level of play, and developed the theory of the game. But from the standpoint of viewing progamers as entertainers, that has no inherent value. Savior's "legacy" in that regard is the entertaining play he brought to the table and how he entered the hearts and minds of his fans. And in that sense, giving a big "fuck you" to his fans by trading their regard for money is damaging to his legacy. Because the legacy of an entertainer is ultimately built on the opinions of those who he entertained.

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