On June 25 2010 19:21 ssj114 wrote: I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
rofl, I may be that one unhappy person. I find this post much more reasonable than your first few questions on the front page which i find ridiculous. rofl
Of course Savior would be a bonjwa, to me this is like Time magazine being told that if they don't issue a recall and burn all the issues of the magazine with Hitler on the cover they will face massive consequences.
Obviously it's not the same thing however I do think there are massive distinctions to be made between obvious violations of trust, rule of law and the products of the prior and present.
So we come to, is savior's legacy tainted? Obviously this is a matter of what his legacy is from a personal perspective. For me, no. I watched his games live when he was pouring his soul into the game and it was truly something special. That will never be tainted and I don't see how it could be for anyone that experienced those games in that light.
So it should follow that someone who didn't even know what race savior was 6 months ago will have a difference personal perspective on savior's legacy.
I suppose I just mean that I don't think theres anything really to think about here. You experience life and you form opinions on your experiences. It should be common sense that the present doesn't change the past, only your perspective of it.
Perhaps I'm bias, but as I said, I don't care about savior much. Sure, I watched in disgust (with underlying admiration) as he constantly thrashed one of my favourite players iloveoov 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0. That was the near the beginning of his reign. Following this, he just continued thrashing everyone for the next 12 months or so.
Perhaps he is like Nadal for me. I don't like Nadal much, even though on clay, he is the greatest player of all time, no contest. The things he is able to do on clay is simply amazing. But I just generally dislike him (perhaps his mannerism on court gets to me I don't know). If he is found to be a match fixer later on in his career, I would start questioning the games when he really put effort in and when he didn't. I would start questioning other aspects of integrity, like whether he used performance-enhancing drugs (sure this doesn't really apply in Starcraft but I'm just trying to make a point) etc.
The same goes with savior. Sure, he appeared to be an amazing player at his peak, but who knows what really went on behind the scenes. We'll never know exactly when his integrity started breaking down.
On June 25 2010 19:21 ssj114 wrote: I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
rofl, I may be that one unhappy person. I find this post much more reasonable than your first few questions on the front page which i find ridiculous. rofl
Of course Savior would be a bonjwa, to me this is like Time magazine being told that if they don't issue a recall and burn all the issues of the magazine with Hitler on the cover they will face massive consequences.
Obviously it's not the same thing however I do think there are massive distinctions to be made between obvious violations of trust, rule of law and the products of the prior and present.
So we come to, is savior's legacy tainted? Obviously this is a matter of what his legacy is from a personal perspective. For me, no. I watched his games live when he was pouring his soul into the game and it was truly something special. That will never be tainted and I don't see how it could be for anyone that experienced those games in that light.
So it should follow that someone who didn't even know what race savior was 6 months ago will have a difference personal perspective on savior's legacy.
I suppose I just mean that I don't think theres anything really to think about here. You experience life and you form opinions on your experiences. It should be common sense that the present doesn't change the past, only your perspective of it.
Perhaps I'm bias, but as I said, I don't care about savior much. Sure, I watched in disgust (with underlying admiration) as he constantly thrashed one of my favourite players iloveoov 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0. That was the near the beginning of his reign. Following this, he just continued thrashing everyone for the next 12 months or so.
Perhaps he is like Nadal for me. I don't like Nadal much, even though on clay, he is the greatest player of all time, no contest. The things he is able to do on clay is simply amazing. But I just generally dislike him (perhaps his mannerism on court gets to me I don't know). If he is found to be a match fixer later on in his career, I would start questioning the games when he really put effort in and when he didn't. I would start questioning other aspects of integrity, like whether he used performance-enhancing drugs (sure this doesn't really apply in Starcraft but I'm just trying to make a point) etc.
The same goes with savior. Sure, he appeared to be an amazing player at his peak, but who knows what really went on behind the scenes. We'll never know exactly when his integrity started breaking down.
But he only got loses out of the match-fixing (as far as everyone knows), so all his wins were legit, and his reign was real. You can't really question that.
On June 25 2010 19:21 ssj114 wrote: I don't know about you guys and who you like and dislike in sports. But let's say Michael Jordan was found to be a match-fixer etc in basketball later on in his career. Let's say Tiger Woods...oh...
Let's say Rafael Nadal was a match fixer later on in his career. Let's say Roger Federer and Pete Sampras fixed that 2001 Wimbledon 4th round match (where Federer beat Sampras in 5).
Let's say Lin Dan fixed all the badminton matches he's been involved in in the past 2 years.
Let's say Pele (or Christiano Ronaldo or whoever is your soccer hero) fixed all the soccer matches he (they) was (were) involved in in the last couple of years of his (their) career(s).
Let's say etc etc.
Wouldn't their legacy be forever tainted? Would you ever be able to trust what they did and didn't do? Sure, they may have gone on some amazing winning streaks and done some amazing stuff...but who would really know if the match they were playing in was REAL? What if all matches, or the most important ones, were all fixed?
All I'm saying is that integrity is lost. And we'll never know for sure when that integrity is lost.
Anyway, I'm sure I'll get the odd person being really unhappy with this post, but I'm just making a point. I personally like Roger Federer a lot. If he was found guilty of match fixing (even not important matches), it would severely put a dent in how I "feel" about him. Sure, objectively, his physical play is arguably the best ever, but everything he would have ever done would also arguably be tainted etc. Just some food for thought. Or not for many people out there who are just able to brush it off easily. These people would make good lawyers or simply good at stating opinions.
rofl, I may be that one unhappy person. I find this post much more reasonable than your first few questions on the front page which i find ridiculous. rofl
Of course Savior would be a bonjwa, to me this is like Time magazine being told that if they don't issue a recall and burn all the issues of the magazine with Hitler on the cover they will face massive consequences.
Obviously it's not the same thing however I do think there are massive distinctions to be made between obvious violations of trust, rule of law and the products of the prior and present.
So we come to, is savior's legacy tainted? Obviously this is a matter of what his legacy is from a personal perspective. For me, no. I watched his games live when he was pouring his soul into the game and it was truly something special. That will never be tainted and I don't see how it could be for anyone that experienced those games in that light.
So it should follow that someone who didn't even know what race savior was 6 months ago will have a difference personal perspective on savior's legacy.
I suppose I just mean that I don't think theres anything really to think about here. You experience life and you form opinions on your experiences. It should be common sense that the present doesn't change the past, only your perspective of it.
Perhaps I'm bias, but as I said, I don't care about savior much. Sure, I watched in disgust (with underlying admiration) as he constantly thrashed one of my favourite players iloveoov 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0, 3-0. That was the near the beginning of his reign. Following this, he just continued thrashing everyone for the next 12 months or so.
Perhaps he is like Nadal for me. I don't like Nadal much, even though on clay, he is the greatest player of all time, no contest. The things he is able to do on clay is simply amazing. But I just generally dislike him (perhaps his mannerism on court gets to me I don't know). If he is found to be a match fixer later on in his career, I would start questioning the games when he really put effort in and when he didn't. I would start questioning other aspects of integrity, like whether he used performance-enhancing drugs (sure this doesn't really apply in Starcraft but I'm just trying to make a point) etc.
The same goes with savior. Sure, he appeared to be an amazing player at his peak, but who knows what really went on behind the scenes. We'll never know exactly when his integrity started breaking down.
But he only got loses out of the match-fixing (as far as everyone knows), so all his wins were legit, and his reign was real. You can't really question that.
That's exactly the issue though (I bolded the point I'm trying to make). Sure, it's very likely all his wins were legit, but we'll never know for sure. Given that he's tainted himself as a human being in the very game we all love etc, perhaps we should be questioning it. Of course, those who think he is/was a God would think otherwise.
ssj114 does have a point - if Savior was willing enough to throw games, did he ever bother to buy replays? He wasn't that great (still awesome but still lost fairly regularly) in proleague but fucking amazing in late series matches. Before those late series matches he'd lose fairly often to scrubs and took forever to get into an OSL.
I do wonder if there was a market for selling progamer replays? A lot of players are abnormally good at the whole "mind games" thing. Flash did mention a while ago somebody (Luxury?) was leaking his replays and guys like Boxer are asking for Starcraft 2 to remove the option to save replays of games in order to preserve build orders and timings (which was really confusing in that interview since VODs tell you pretty much everything anyway).
Of course his legacy is forever tainted. Are you kidding me? I lost every ounce of respect I had for him, especially after he lied about it after getting accused. His achievements don't even really matter to me anymore. He will forever be a filthy cheater before a winner. He cheated, he lied, and he deserves nothing from us fans. This isn't even like the Tiger Woods scandal; Woods didn't interfere with the game of golf itself, and even though you could argue that he brought down the sports with him because he was really the icon of it, his mistakes in personal life and the sport did not directly have to do with each other. Ma Jae Yoon, on the other hand...
How can anyone still like this guy? It's disgusting to think how selfish this bastard is. He doesn't give a shit about StarCraft as a sport that we love, he doesn't give a shit about his fans, and most importantly, he doesn't give a shit about his integrity and honor. To buy himself a brand new diamond watch and a pair of shoes, he betrayed everything fans cheer for. It's mind-boggling.
There's no denying that he was a great player. Perhaps one of the best to ever play. But it doesn't matter, man. His integrity is lost. His legacy? I will remember him as that guy who cheated and lied, not the guy who won titles. It's a shame that a guy like him is called a "bonjwa" of StarCraft.
Yeah what the fuck is wrong with people saying he's still a bonjwa, he still changed the game... Probably same bandwagoning people who were filled to the brim with excitement when TL randomly announced its zero tolerance for hackers.
On June 25 2010 05:36 3FFA wrote: I liked savior for a time, but then I kinda had a bad feeling about him. I could tell that he had done something that he didn't want anyone to know and I just didn't even watch more than a few games of him(some where he faced Jaedong and some games where he faced Bisu) and whenever I saw his face I felt really confused. I never understood until this year what it was that hurt him so bad. He did a stupid mistake and was too afraid to take the blame and be a brave progamer instead of the scared, forced, frightened, black-mailed, and now trialed former progamer he has become.
Yes, great hindsight there.
On June 26 2010 10:07 OneOther wrote: Of course his legacy is forever tainted. Are you kidding me? I lost every ounce of respect I had for him, especially after he lied about it after getting accused. His achievements don't even really matter to me anymore. He will forever be a filthy cheater before a winner. He cheated, he lied, and he deserves nothing from us fans. This isn't even like the Tiger Woods scandal; Woods didn't interfere with the game of golf itself, and even though you could argue that he brought down the sports with him because he was really the icon of it, his mistakes in personal life and the sport did not directly have to do with each other. Ma Jae Yoon, on the other hand...
How can anyone still like this guy? It's disgusting to think how selfish this bastard is. He doesn't give a shit about StarCraft as a sport that we love, he doesn't give a shit about his fans, and most importantly, he doesn't give a shit about his integrity and honor. To buy himself a brand new diamond watch and a pair of shoes, he betrayed everything fans cheer for. It's mind-boggling.
There's no denying that he was a great player. Perhaps one of the best to ever play. But it doesn't matter, man. His integrity is lost. His legacy? I will remember him as that guy who cheated and lied, not the guy who won titles. It's a shame that a guy like him is called a "bonjwa" of StarCraft.
Fuck this guy.
WELL said. Don't even know why people still argue. And please, purge everyone who mentions 2009. Holy shit, worst meme ever.
The first games of professional starcraft I ever saw were at Blizzcon 2007. I'm glad I rooted for Nal_Ra in the finals now. I have some sympathy for the players who cheated, considering the shitty conditions they live under, but it doesn't extend to Savior. He should have just retired. Even had he fixed his own matches, I would've been pretty alright iwth it, but forcing others.
On June 26 2010 10:23 OneOther wrote: It makes no sense to me how some people are saying his legacy isn't tainted...I'm pretty speechless lol
Probably because they don't care about the starcraft scene as much as you or other hardcore fans. So they appreciate his skills and don't care that he was ruining the esports scene.
On June 26 2010 10:23 OneOther wrote: It makes no sense to me how some people are saying his legacy isn't tainted...I'm pretty speechless lol
Probably because they don't care about the starcraft scene as much as you or other hardcore fans. So they appreciate his skills and don't care that he was ruining the esports scene.
I mean, I can appreciate his skills as well but saying that his legacy is intact after all this is nonsense
On June 26 2010 10:07 OneOther wrote: Of course his legacy is forever tainted. Are you kidding me? I lost every ounce of respect I had for him, especially after he lied about it after getting accused. His achievements don't even really matter to me anymore. He will forever be a filthy cheater before a winner. He cheated, he lied, and he deserves nothing from us fans. This isn't even like the Tiger Woods scandal; Woods didn't interfere with the game of golf itself, and even though you could argue that he brought down the sports with him because he was really the icon of it, his mistakes in personal life and the sport did not directly have to do with each other. Ma Jae Yoon, on the other hand...
How can anyone still like this guy? It's disgusting to think how selfish this bastard is. He doesn't give a shit about StarCraft as a sport that we love, he doesn't give a shit about his fans, and most importantly, he doesn't give a shit about his integrity and honor. To buy himself a brand new diamond watch and a pair of shoes, he betrayed everything fans cheer for. It's mind-boggling.
There's no denying that he was a great player. Perhaps one of the best to ever play. But it doesn't matter, man. His integrity is lost. His legacy? I will remember him as that guy who cheated and lied, not the guy who won titles. It's a shame that a guy like him is called a "bonjwa" of StarCraft.
Fuck this guy.
Excellent post. For anyone to think that Savior belongs in the same sentence or breath as people who truly cared and fostered esports like BoxeR, Ra, NaDa, etc. is ridiculous. Savior is a piece of shit.
The finals of this MSL is not betting related but its still fixed :O, why has no one reacted on it? :/
Shut the fuck up.
On June 26 2010 10:14 Ack1027 wrote: Yeah what the fuck is wrong with people saying he's still a bonjwa, he still changed the game... Probably same bandwagoning people who were filled to the brim with excitement when TL randomly announced its zero tolerance for hackers.
MJY should be forgotten, fast.
It's hard to forget him since the basic foundations of ZvT is still fundamentally the same as when he devised it. Like it or not his legacy in the game has forever been embedded in the way Zerg players play. We don't need to respect the man or not to recognize his influence on the game even when he no longer plays. You don't judge an artist's work on the character of the artist. Heidegger was one of the greatest philosophers of the recent past regardless of how much of an anti-Semite he was or how much he supported the Nazis. Are we going to decry Stravinsky's art due to his unabashed support of fascism?
Okay, we can say that sAviOr was a great player who revolutionized the race of Zerg. Nobody can take that away from him. But more importantly, like I said, he is a selfish prick who harmed the e-Sports scene in an unprecedented way, betrayed his fans/the beloved game by cheating, lied to everyone who cares about him that he was innocent, and sold his integrity for what it's worth. All for a couple thousand bucks and a new pair of shoes. You also can't change that.
EPT
