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for progamers with ELO peaks of 2250+ leading up to their ELO peak, but not including games after their ELO peak being played the same day.
 BoxeR 39-7 (84.78%) 3/6/01-9/6/01
 Nal_rA 22-5 (81.48%) 2/16/03-8/16/03
iloveoov 43-12 (78.18%) 1/1/04-7/1/04
 sAviOr 32-9 (78.05%) 8/9/06-2/9/07
Leta 37-11 (77.08%) 7/22/08-1/22/09
Bisu 72-22 (76.60%) 9/1/08-3/1/09
Flash 49-15 (76.56%) 4/28/09-10/28/09
Midas 28-9 (75.68%) 2/15/04-8/15/04
EffOrt 43-14 (75.44%) 1/26/09-7/26/09
JangBi 48-16 (75.00%) 8/25/08-2/25/09
NaDa 53-18 (74.65%) 8/27/02-2/27/03
Jaedong 73-25 (74.49%) 1/2/09-7/2/09
ChoJJa 50-20 (71.43%) 5/20/03-11/20/03
Calm 38-16 (70.37%) 4/16/09-10/16/09
YellOw 34-15 (69.39%) 10/4/01-4/4/02
Stork 45-20 (69.23%) 4/26/08-10/26/08
fantasy 38-17 (69.09%) 2/14/09-8/14/09
GoRush 42-19 (68.85%) 10/8/04-4/8/05
XellOs 26-12 (68.42%) 1/15/04-7/15/04
Hwasin 38-18 (67.86%) 4/14/07-10/14/07
fOrGG 38-18 (67.86%) 2/8/08-8/8/08
BeSt 37-18 (67.27%) 7/4/08-1/4/09
July 34-17 (66.67%) 8/25/04-2/25/05
Luxury 29-15 (65.91%) 12/27/07-6/27/08
Reach 19-10 (65.52%) 1/21/05-7/21/05
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Great. Could you also do 1 year and 3 month periods?
edit: Maybe 6 months before peak and 6 months after? Just a thought. Really interesting this stuff
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Jaedongs and Bisus are sooo much more impressing than everyone else.
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On November 14 2009 16:39 Oystein wrote:
Jaedongs and Bisus are sooo much more impressing than everyone else.
Agreed, and don't forget Flash is still going. He's likely to break the magical 2400 mark within the next 6 months.
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Katowice25012 Posts
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On November 14 2009 16:51 heyoka wrote:
85% is really high
Indeed.
BOXERRR <3
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United States2186 Posts
On November 14 2009 16:39 Oystein wrote:
Jaedongs and Bisus are sooo much more impressing than everyone else.
A lot less impressive from anything but a pure numbers standpoint.
All of the top guys were plowing through leagues against the best possible competition while Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu were busy stomping nobodies in proleague.
Same reason why there are a lot of weaker modern players on that list and virtually none from the past.
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motbob
United States12546 Posts
Well, those certainly are statistics
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
Nal_Ra? This is surprising
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
On November 14 2009 17:12 Godimus wrote:
iloveoov's tvz winning streak is sickening
27-0 
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On November 14 2009 16:57 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 16:39 Oystein wrote:
Jaedongs and Bisus are sooo much more impressing than everyone else. A lot less impressive from anything but a pure numbers standpoint. All of the top guys were plowing through leagues against the best possible competition while Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu were busy stomping nobodies in proleague. Same reason why there are a lot of weaker modern players on that list and virtually none from the past.
Its the numbers that make it impressive, not only where they facing the strongest competition in the individual leagues like the others, they where also stomping people in PL on a daily basis. I mean they average more than a game every second day, while the others have had pretty much nothing beside series vs people to prepare for, these 2 have spread there workload over a HUGE amount of games with everyone gunning to take them down. Withstanding a 75+ winrate over 100ish games vs all races is just SICK.
Also I am confident both Bisu and Jaedong will break well into the 80s if we shorten their best streaks to similar amount of games as the others on the top.
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just look at how many more games jd and bisu have to play in 6 months compared to boxer
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Flash's includes the month of offseason, heh.
It's also incredibly unfair to characterize all of recent players' wins as 'against bad players', and older players wins as 'always against the best players'.
1 - Even Boxer's era had it's share of sub-50% players
2 - The skill gap between the best and worst players in the Korean pro scene is much, much smaller than it ever has been
3 - Both Bisu and Jaedong were playing in and won at least one starleague during their 6 month periods (how else would they be playing ~100 games in 6 months?)
Overall, pretty much 100% agreed with Oystein.
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Yeah I'd like to see this done for longer periods, and see who has been consistently better.
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Russian Federation1208 Posts
In fact, Midas deserve more than he've achieved. He is very unlucky. With his skills he hasn't won a single league...
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On November 14 2009 21:27 Bifur wrote:
In fact, Midas deserve more than he've achieved. He is very unlucky. With his skills he hasn't won a single league...
Its not called luck when you voluntary pick Savior to play, and then when you have the chance to win dont scan and lose to a single lurker.
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Midas wtfpwned everyone put before him ....
.... till he met Savior ...
poor kid ... he's like Zhou Yu in Three Kingdoms
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Jaedong played an obscene amount of games in those 12 months
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9070 Posts
I dont see a point of making such a ranking, Boxer played half of the games Bisu and Jeadong did in their respective 6 months periods
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United States43215 Posts
12 months:
(T)iloveoov 72-19 (79.12%)
(Z)sAviOr 53-17 (75.71%)
Sick.
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Boxers was in 2001 lol
Everyone sucked back then except Boxer and Grrr pretty much
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its like babe ruth for boxer no one was good or gosu as him at the time lol
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That's not when he hit his elo peak, though, which is what these statistics lead up to.
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On November 15 2009 01:40 Foucault wrote:
Boxers was in 2001 lol
Everyone sucked back then except Boxer and Grrr pretty much
Everyone sucked back then because no one had led the development yet. NOthing is more difficult then leadign the development. Coyping other people afterwards and get good that way is a lot easier.
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On November 15 2009 01:51 DarkShadowz wrote:
Everyone sucked back then because no one had led the development yet. NOthing is more difficult then leadign the development. Coyping other people afterwards and get good that way is a lot easier.
x2
Boxer fighting forever (:
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On November 15 2009 01:44 Godimus wrote:
its like babe ruth for boxer no one was good or gosu as him at the time lol
lol i hate to agree with you but the game has evolved so much now that modern games of sc are far more mechanical and less cheese friendly than they were in 2001.
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oh my god that's crazy.
what a beast
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Damn, Jaedong is playing a game every other day, at least. That's crazy. Also, I never realized how dominate boxer was in his prime. Respect.
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Sheer number of games played in 6 months, the difference is pretty big.
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Wow 12 months, Savior and Iloveoov are impressive
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boxer's is so ridic because nobody else knew how to play starcraft at the time
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Bisu 72-22 (76.60%) 9/1/08-3/1/09
Jaedong 73-25 (74.49%) 1/2/09-7/2/09
THAT IS RIDICULOUS MAN
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Jaedong 119-44 (73.01%)
163 games in 1 year. wow.
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On November 14 2009 17:18 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 16:57 Ver wrote:On November 14 2009 16:39 Oystein wrote:
Jaedongs and Bisus are sooo much more impressing than everyone else. A lot less impressive from anything but a pure numbers standpoint. All of the top guys were plowing through leagues against the best possible competition while Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu were busy stomping nobodies in proleague. Same reason why there are a lot of weaker modern players on that list and virtually none from the past. Its the numbers that make it impressive, not only where they facing the strongest competition in the individual leagues like the others, they where also stomping people in PL on a daily basis. I mean they average more than a game every second day, while the others have had pretty much nothing beside series vs people to prepare for, these 2 have spread there workload over a HUGE amount of games with everyone gunning to take them down. Withstanding a 75+ winrate over 100ish games vs all races is just SICK. Also I am confident both Bisu and Jaedong will break well into the 80s if we shorten their best streaks to similar amount of games as the others on the top.
Their stats certainly are impressive, but I'd have to call you delusional if you think Boxer, Oov or NaDa would fail to deliver 75+% wins against the equivalent of today's average proleague competition. Especially if you given them the advantage of winner's league format tournaments.
The point Ver is making is that back then, almost all the games counted were Ro16 or later and the bonjwas were consistently playing most of their games deep in individual leagues. The field of competition is already narrowed down considerably at that point.
The only counter-argument is that the skill gap between S-class and A-class progamers has decreased, but is that a facet of changes in the metagame, or is it simply proof of how ridiculously talented the bonjwas were?
By the way, you're statement "Also I am confident both Bisu and Jaedong will break well into the 80s if we shorten their best streaks to similar amount of games as the others on the top" was completely disproved by the 3 month stats posted just a few posts down from this post you made. Only Flash broke the 80's and that includes time spent in the offseason, so he only played 21 games during that time period.
On November 14 2009 17:35 QibingZero wrote:
Flash's includes the month of offseason, heh.
It's also incredibly unfair to characterize all of recent players' wins as 'against bad players', and older players wins as 'always against the best players'.
1 - Even Boxer's era had it's share of sub-50% players
2 - The skill gap between the best and worst players in the Korean pro scene is much, much smaller than it ever has been
3 - Both Bisu and Jaedong were playing in and won at least one starleague during their 6 month periods (how else would they be playing ~100 games in 6 months?)
Overall, pretty much 100% agreed with Oystein.
1 - The difference is that a sub-50% player in Boxer's era was sub-50% after already qualifying for tournaments. The first ever ODT wasn't until 2002. In Boxer's time, the only games factored in were Ro16 or better of any given tournament.
Many of the sub-50% players of today have never once qualified for the Ro16 of a tournament.
2 - Yes. As I said, this is the only valid point to argue. The skill gap has decreased. But again, is that truly a facet of the metagame, or is it merely that nobody stands out like the bonjwas used to as the sole dominating force in e-Sports?
3 - It's true that Bisu and JD and Flash have been good about qualifying for leagues and even winning them. JD is probably the most accomplished Zerg of all time (though I wholeheartedly view Savior as having been more dominant) and Bisu is most likely the best Protoss of all time, probably better than Ra or Garimto. The only contender is Giyom, but it's hard to make comparisons there because Giyom was playing in a time before the professional league was really established and many of his big tournament wins aren't in TLPD or recorded by KeSPA.
But having played 100 games in 6 months is actually not proof of having won a tournament during that time, or even necessarily having gone deep in one. Consider that Flash and JD and Bisu would have played probably 40 or 50 or even 60 proleague games during that time frame.
I tried to explain this before: stats today cannot easily be compared with stats from the previous generations. With the heightened emphasis on PL and the longer tournaments (Ro32, Ro36, and whatnot), it's possible to achieve fantastic looking stats without even getting close to winning a tournament. Out of the 12 people who have entered the 2300+ ELO club, 3 of them have never even won a tournament and one of them has never even made a finals. Would you really say that Jangbi and Best are better than Reach and Kingdom?
And lately, we've had Flash on a tear, beating out all of the past bonjwas in ELO when his only recent accomplishment is winning GOM? How can you say that's superior to someone who qualifies for 4 or 5 Starleauge finals in a row?! And then you have the fact that right now there are two people over 2300 ELO. What? And one of them didn't even make a finals last season? How could this happen?
That's not to say "Flash sucks" or anything, because his current form is absolutely god-like. Only his TvP shows anything remotely resembling a weakness and it's hard to believe that anyone human could stand up to him. But was it not the same for the bonjwas?
The metagame changes of Starcraft have not just been in terms of build orders and strategy. When Boxer was bonjwa, proleague did not even exist. Now it is the single most presitigious event in professional gaming.
More games are played today, but don't hold that against the past bonjwas. Anybody who has been following Starcraft for a long time knows that progamers are very streaky. Give a player more opponents to face while he's hot and you're going to give him a bunch of wins; give him more opponents when he's slumping and he's going to walk away with a string of losses. The most impressive thing about Flash and JD should not be the raw number of games played, but that they maintained those win percentages over such long periods of time. Because time is the enemy of any dominant gamer.
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Very interesting statistics.
I think it might be better to look at a certain number of games rather than a length of time. Bisu and Jaedong for instance played ~twice the number of games as Boxer. I must say though, it's nice seeing him at the top of a list like this even after all this time.
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On November 14 2009 22:55 L_P_Monix wrote:
Jaedong played an obscene amount of games in those 12 months
Goddamn yea. That's a win like every three days.
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On November 15 2009 04:53 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 17:35 QibingZero wrote:
Flash's includes the month of offseason, heh.
It's also incredibly unfair to characterize all of recent players' wins as 'against bad players', and older players wins as 'always against the best players'.
1 - Even Boxer's era had it's share of sub-50% players
2 - The skill gap between the best and worst players in the Korean pro scene is much, much smaller than it ever has been
3 - Both Bisu and Jaedong were playing in and won at least one starleague during their 6 month periods (how else would they be playing ~100 games in 6 months?)
Overall, pretty much 100% agreed with Oystein. 1 - The difference is that a sub-50% player in Boxer's era was sub-50% after already qualifying for tournaments. The first ever ODT wasn't until 2002. In Boxer's time, the only games factored in were Ro16 or better of any given tournament. Many of the sub-50% players of today have never once qualified for the Ro16 of a tournament. 2 - Yes. As I said, this is the only valid point to argue. The skill gap has decreased. But again, is that truly a facet of the metagame, or is it merely that nobody stands out like the bonjwas used to as the sole dominating force in e-Sports? 3 - It's true that Bisu and JD and Flash have been good about qualifying for leagues and even winning them. JD is probably the most accomplished Zerg of all time (though I wholeheartedly view Savior as having been more dominant) and Bisu is most likely the best Protoss of all time, probably better than Ra or Garimto. The only contender is Giyom, but it's hard to make comparisons there because Giyom was playing in a time before the professional league was really established and many of his big tournament wins aren't in TLPD or recorded by KeSPA. But having played 100 games in 6 months is actually not proof of having won a tournament during that time, or even necessarily having gone deep in one. Consider that Flash and JD and Bisu would have played probably 40 or 50 or even 60 proleague games during that time frame.
You're neglecting the fact that there were a lot less progamers in 2001 than there are now. There were a lot less players attempting to qualify for every starleague, and more importantly, there were a lot less good players attempting to do so. Nowadays you can be upset by some guy who has been on the b team in a practice house for a year or two (who is actually a very good player). Anyone who could have kept that kind of practice regimen against good players for that long in 2001-ish would have been contending against Boxer himself.
And yes, there is a limit to how good you can be at Starcraft, and today's players are actually approaching it. I still want to believe it's impossible to play a "perfect game" once you're worrying about 4-5 bases and battles at the same time, but sometimes these guys are just everywhere at once, doing everything that can be done - even that late into the game. The point here is that the closer you get to this apex of skill, the more difficult it becomes to be better than everyone else out there. This is only amplified when you have players who don't even have enough time to prepare for the mental and strategical aspect of the game (see Jaedong vs Calm, Avalon MSL). That's why it's still just as impressive to me when newer players dominate with equivalent or better winning percentages than the players who came before them.
Also, I wasn't just throwing that out there. Bisu and Jaedong did actually win starleagues during the 6 month periods described above.
As for the ELO stuff, it's an interesting stat but very difficult to use as a basis any real judgments. The usage of it in this thread is fine though - the OP uses it to find out when each player was at their 'peak' of dominance.
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On November 15 2009 04:53 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 17:18 Oystein wrote:On November 14 2009 16:57 Ver wrote:On November 14 2009 16:39 Oystein wrote:
Jaedongs and Bisus are sooo much more impressing than everyone else. A lot less impressive from anything but a pure numbers standpoint. All of the top guys were plowing through leagues against the best possible competition while Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu were busy stomping nobodies in proleague. Same reason why there are a lot of weaker modern players on that list and virtually none from the past. Its the numbers that make it impressive, not only where they facing the strongest competition in the individual leagues like the others, they where also stomping people in PL on a daily basis. I mean they average more than a game every second day, while the others have had pretty much nothing beside series vs people to prepare for, these 2 have spread there workload over a HUGE amount of games with everyone gunning to take them down. Withstanding a 75+ winrate over 100ish games vs all races is just SICK. Also I am confident both Bisu and Jaedong will break well into the 80s if we shorten their best streaks to similar amount of games as the others on the top. Their stats certainly are impressive, but I'd have to call you delusional if you think Boxer, Oov or NaDa would fail to deliver 75+% wins against the equivalent of today's average proleague competition. Especially if you given them the advantage of winner's league format tournaments. The point Ver is making is that back then, almost all the games counted were Ro16 or later and the bonjwas were consistently playing most of their games deep in individual leagues. The field of competition is already narrowed down considerably at that point. The only counter-argument is that the skill gap between S-class and A-class progamers has decreased, but is that a facet of changes in the metagame, or is it simply proof of how ridiculously talented the bonjwas were? By the way, you're statement "Also I am confident both Bisu and Jaedong will break well into the 80s if we shorten their best streaks to similar amount of games as the others on the top" was completely disproved by the 3 month stats posted just a few posts down from this post you made. Only Flash broke the 80's and that includes time spent in the offseason, so he only played 21 games during that time period. Show nested quote +On November 14 2009 17:35 QibingZero wrote:
Flash's includes the month of offseason, heh.
It's also incredibly unfair to characterize all of recent players' wins as 'against bad players', and older players wins as 'always against the best players'.
1 - Even Boxer's era had it's share of sub-50% players
2 - The skill gap between the best and worst players in the Korean pro scene is much, much smaller than it ever has been
3 - Both Bisu and Jaedong were playing in and won at least one starleague during their 6 month periods (how else would they be playing ~100 games in 6 months?)
Overall, pretty much 100% agreed with Oystein. 1 - The difference is that a sub-50% player in Boxer's era was sub-50% after already qualifying for tournaments. The first ever ODT wasn't until 2002. In Boxer's time, the only games factored in were Ro16 or better of any given tournament. Many of the sub-50% players of today have never once qualified for the Ro16 of a tournament. 2 - Yes. As I said, this is the only valid point to argue. The skill gap has decreased. But again, is that truly a facet of the metagame, or is it merely that nobody stands out like the bonjwas used to as the sole dominating force in e-Sports? 3 - It's true that Bisu and JD and Flash have been good about qualifying for leagues and even winning them. JD is probably the most accomplished Zerg of all time (though I wholeheartedly view Savior as having been more dominant) and Bisu is most likely the best Protoss of all time, probably better than Ra or Garimto. The only contender is Giyom, but it's hard to make comparisons there because Giyom was playing in a time before the professional league was really established and many of his big tournament wins aren't in TLPD or recorded by KeSPA. But having played 100 games in 6 months is actually not proof of having won a tournament during that time, or even necessarily having gone deep in one. Consider that Flash and JD and Bisu would have played probably 40 or 50 or even 60 proleague games during that time frame. I tried to explain this before: stats today cannot easily be compared with stats from the previous generations. With the heightened emphasis on PL and the longer tournaments (Ro32, Ro36, and whatnot), it's possible to achieve fantastic looking stats without even getting close to winning a tournament. Out of the 12 people who have entered the 2300+ ELO club, 3 of them have never even won a tournament and one of them has never even made a finals. Would you really say that Jangbi and Best are better than Reach and Kingdom? And lately, we've had Flash on a tear, beating out all of the past bonjwas in ELO when his only recent accomplishment is winning GOM? How can you say that's superior to someone who qualifies for 4 or 5 Starleauge finals in a row?! And then you have the fact that right now there are two people over 2300 ELO. What? And one of them didn't even make a finals last season? How could this happen? That's not to say "Flash sucks" or anything, because his current form is absolutely god-like. Only his TvP shows anything remotely resembling a weakness and it's hard to believe that anyone human could stand up to him. But was it not the same for the bonjwas? The metagame changes of Starcraft have not just been in terms of build orders and strategy. When Boxer was bonjwa, proleague did not even exist. Now it is the single most presitigious event in professional gaming. More games are played today, but don't hold that against the past bonjwas. Anybody who has been following Starcraft for a long time knows that progamers are very streaky. Give a player more opponents to face while he's hot and you're going to give him a bunch of wins; give him more opponents when he's slumping and he's going to walk away with a string of losses. The most impressive thing about Flash and JD should not be the raw number of games played, but that they maintained those win percentages over such long periods of time. Because time is the enemy of any dominant gamer.
Those 3month stats are only leading up to their ELO peaks. I said if you shorten their best streaks they can make similar winrates, I was not talking about streaks up to their ELO peaks. If you look at their best streaks over 30-40 games both break into the 80s over 30+ games, Bisu spots a 81% 42 game streak while Jaedong has a 80% winrate over 30 games. Both could possibly have better streaks also, I just looked briefly at their match lists and found those streaks.
The old guys would probably maintain a good proleague record, but we don`t know for certain how they would do if they had to play 3-4 games a week on average. Just assuming that they would still win 75%+ of their games with the workload of today are a bit of a stretch (Tho possible of course, but we will never know). Btw they had winners league format back in the days of oov, he all killed several teams in similar fashion.
As much as I love the old days of progaming, your argument that they had to face harder opponents because of most games being ro16 and up is flawed. Back then there was WAY less players and progaming was just beginning to take form and the average player back then was pretty awful compared to the few pioneers who was miles ahead of everyone else. The sub50s of the old days was WAY worse compared to the better players, than todays sub50s are. By the time of Savior the average pro had already caught up a lot, you had several people able to push him to the edge, in fact he came so close vs Midas he was a scan away from losing in the OSL.
While PL today gives plenty of games, it also put the players under a huge work load burden. People these days are running 10-15 games weeks occasionally and sometimes 7-8 games on a SINGLE day, not to mention that everyone is gunning for the top players with well prepared builds. While in the days of Boxer he would have a week to prepare new builds before ever game, I for one really wonder how he would have done with a similar kind of work load as today`s stars have.
Also people still stand out from the rest these days, the difference is that they aint alone like the old bonwjas. Again leading back to the point that its easy to stand out when something is not yet developed professionally and people had no clue how to play the game (Both mechanically and strategical in the days of Boxer). It would be like complaining that football players these days don`t score 1k goals in their careers like old greats like Pele or Gert Mueller. Its just way harder to stand out when everyone is getting closer to the skill ceiling of the game, the room for being ahead of the rest are just diminishing as we are closing in on a "perfect" play. Tho I in no way want to take anything away from the old bonjwas because they were simply great and legends of this game.
They both DID win a Starleague leading up to those ELO peaks. In fact bisu won a GOM also during those 6 months.
Anyway I don`t think the achievements of the old bonjwas was worse or anything, in fact I think Oov is by far the greatest player to ever play this game (Shown by his 1year stats also) and non of the new ones can compare to the old bonjwas in that department. However I do think the stats/amount of games of Bisu/Jaedong overshadows them by a fair amount.
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Whoa, I never knew Nal_Ra was that good, at least for a period of time
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The only WL that I know for sure Oov competed in was the Tsucan Team League (in which Oov played a whole 3 games).
These arguments being made about B-teamers beating S-class players today because of the heightened level of competition fail to take into account that even in the past it was always true that the best gamers could "unexpectedly" drop games to nobodies. The reality is that with less understood about Starcraft, it was more possible to devise a strategy that would take could take down a titan. These days, you have to have the mechanics to back it up and you have to train hard in secret to master the timing if you want to do the same.
We've all seen games of Boxer and NaDa toying with opponents on mechanics alone, but the truth is that there wasn't any greater difference between them and the other top gamers than between Flash/Bisu/JD and other top gamers of today.How many times have we seen those three tear through competition on superior mechanics alone? In fact, the reason why JD's ZvZ isn't doing as well anymore is only because the other Zergs are only now finally starting to catch back up.
And yes, it's true that there are many more progamers now than ever, but it was also far more possible for a non-progamer to fight a progamer on equal footing back then. In fact it wasn't until after the LYH era that Korean Starcraft became so superior to the foreign amatuer scene, or that the professional scene became so superior to the amatuer scene in general. Many of the people who went on to become top progamers later entered the spotlight by taking down giants, in some cases with practiced ease (like NaDa over ChRh).
And something that bothers me is that both of you mention the "lack of competition" (my words, not yours, but I said it in quotes because it's not something I'd agree with) back then, yet then you (Oystein) indicate that it's uncertain that the old bonjwas could have performed well against the equivalent of today's average proleague opponent, the equivalent being someone who is lucky to qualify for a starleague every now and again (under the old tournament format of offline prelims leading straight into a Ro16)?
And you point out that people didn't really know the mechanics or the strategies, but who do you think invented them? Was that not one of the reasons why those players stood out? That they were ahead of their time mechanically and strategically? JD, Stork and Bisu even said in their recent interview that without the old greats they wouldn't exist. Should we fault them for being ahead of their time?
And it's true that not many people thought of progaming as a potential career option back then, but I assure you that there were tons of people trying to qualify for these tournaments. Even I tried to qualify for KBK (and got nowhere). And sure, if you zipped me back in a time machine, I'd do extremely well, maybe even win, but I got to where I am today by watching Boxer and NaDa and Oov and Savior invent Starcraft in front of my eyes.
I wouldn't at all say, QiblingZero, that there was nobody practicing day in and day out. If you put someone with the talents and mentality of a B-teamer under intensive training back then, there's no guarantee they would stand out. Because there were other players also working very hard, and some of them like Boxer and NaDa were vastly superior at developing the strategy of the game.
And the reference about the stats is backwards -- modern gamers can more easily appear to have better stats. Why? Two reasons:
1.) Progamers are streaky. That's the reality.
2.) If you make a change in the metagame, it takes TIME for your opponents to figure out the counter.
The beauty of Flash and Bisu and JD is that they've actually maintained their stats.
But if you forced them to play in old style tournaments (Ro16 only, maybe and ODT/OCL prelim type thing), either one would stand out or nobody would. Remember that Boxer had his fair share of rivals like Yellow and ChRh and JinNam and Garimto and Reach, all of whom did well but were all overshadowed by Boxer during the LYH era (and of course they did achieve great things and Boxer didn't win everything, but he made the medals stand in virtually every tournament he entered and they didn't). Would you really say that those gamers were shit compared to JD/Flash/Bisu/Stork?
No! You wouldn't! But in today's format, all of them would be able to stand out at the same time. And that's why the stats are so different!
And yes, I agree that it's very taxing to be playing so many games, though it's much more of a psychological burden than anything else. Changes in metagame still takes weeks or months to fully unfold, just like it always has been, even though so many more games are played today. Metagame trends do have a much bigger and more noticeable impact on the game, mainly because other gamers are more capable of copying the S-class players who develop popularize most of the trends.
At the end of the day, the 12 month win percentages are what I tune in to the most. Obviously I want to see a certain minimum number of games, but the skill of someone who maintains 70+% wins for a full 12 months should not be ignored.
And I didn't mean to say that Bisu and JD hadn't won tournaments, but that it would be possible to achieve those kind of stats without winning. These days, just making a finals will drive you up to near 2300 ELO, something that took consistent strong performances to do in the past.
The metagame is completely different and even the players who thrive are different. Flash and JD and Bisu must have a tremendous amount of mental fortitude to do so well when they are under so much pressure on a daily basis. But I find the dominance of the bonjwas to be much more impressive. They completely owned the game, made it theirs, and despite all the talent that did in fact exist during their respective eras, they stood out as the undisputed kings.
In my view, the new format is the life and death of Starcraft. It's better for keeping team stability, but the eras of the bonjwas were more spectacular and the tournament structure helped this. Even in sports, there are always greats in every generation who shine brilliantly. People might remember the glory days of Kareem Abdul Jabar and Wilt Chamberlain, but then you had Magic Johnson and Larry Byrd and then Michael Jordan, and now Kobe and Lebron James (Lebron in particular is just fantastic to watch). You may have had Jesse Owens redefining speed on dirt tracks, but now you've got Usain Bolt shattering all conceptions about human limits. Starcraft needs a standout, and under the old tournament rules, we'd either more clearly see one, or we'd quite clearly see that the new kings truly are all equals.
Alright, I'm tired and rambling now, but I hope my point can be understood. It's not that I'm trying to shit on these great players, but what the bonjwas did was much more impressive in terms of standing out over other talents, in terms of the evolution of the game (though the game may be nearing its limit by now -- but people have been saying that for years, all the way back since Boxer!!!), and in terms of the feeling that you were watching something spectacular.
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In case anyone cares:
On October 26 2009 01:02 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 00:40 tree.hugger wrote:ELO Movement of late- Three new members of the 2300 club; JangBi, fantasy, EffOrt. - Flash is at his ELO peak (2340) and has just past Boxer in vZ peak (2256), earning him the fourth highest vZ of all time. - Bisu has just passed Flash for the second highest vP rating (2262) of all time. Only sAviOr remains. Not sure what I think about this. I can't argue with the numbers, and nobody else is going to get close to 2300 for some time, but it's always cool when a player get's to 2300 and you see it happen, not months after the fact. I think it's JangBi that bothers me most about the list, simply because he's slumping so hard right now, and because EffOrt and fantasy have both proved their metal in decisive PL encounters against some of the best in the game en route to their ELO peaks, whereas JangBi has never really won a high stakes game, and got his ELO peak right before losing to fake yellow and letting Khan lose in winners league. Looking at the list, it looks fine to me. He's only 8 points higher than Kong though with far less league silvers and special match accomplishmenets. Considering that most of JangBi's games were in proleague though compared to mostly tournaments and special matches back then it seems OK. We gotta remember that ELO is slowly inflating a bit over time anyway. It's already up about ~27 points from when the first TLPD data entries were put in around '00/'01 I believe from when I did an analysis in April. If you take this into account we end up with something like: Modern: (P)Bisu 2360 pts
(Z)Jaedong 2358 pts
(T)iloveoov 2344 pts
(T)Flash 2340 pts
(T)NaDa 2319 pts
(Z)sAviOr 2309 pts
(T)BoxeR 2303 pts
(P)JangBi 2302 pts
(T)fantasy 2302 pts
(Z)EffOrt 2301 pts(Z)YellOw 2294 pts (P)Stork 2286 pts (Z)GoRush 2285 pts (Z)Calm 2283 pts ----------------------------- Adjusted (-27 for modern players -- '08/'09 peaks -- because of ELO inflation) (T)iloveoov 2344 pts
(P)Bisu 2333 pts
(Z)Jaedong 2331 pts
(T)NaDa 2319 pts
(T)Flash 2313 pts
(Z)sAviOr 2309 pts
(T)BoxeR 2303 pts(Z)YellOw 2294 pts (Z)GoRush 2285 pts (P)JangBi 2275 pts (T)fantasy 2275 pts (Z)EffOrt 2374 pts (Z)ChoJJa 2271 pts (T)XellOs 2270 pts (T)Midas 2268 pts (T)Hwasin 2266 pts (Z)July 2266 pts (P)Stork 2259 pts (Z)Calm 2256 pts (Z)MuMyung 2253 pts BeSt 2250 pts The result is that there's only the 4 bonjwa's + JD, Bisu, Flash over 2300, and no real other modern player even sniffing close (2275 with fantasy, jangbi, and 2274 with effort close by). Kong and Gorush would even be stronger than these 3 modern players were as well. So basically, if you adjust for inflation the "2300" club makes sense still.
Though it's not entirely accurate because not everyone one of the bonjwas played 00/01.
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On November 16 2009 10:54 TwoStep wrote:In case anyone cares: Show nested quote +On October 26 2009 01:02 eshlow wrote:On October 26 2009 00:40 tree.hugger wrote:ELO Movement of late- Three new members of the 2300 club; JangBi, fantasy, EffOrt. - Flash is at his ELO peak (2340) and has just past Boxer in vZ peak (2256), earning him the fourth highest vZ of all time. - Bisu has just passed Flash for the second highest vP rating (2262) of all time. Only sAviOr remains. Not sure what I think about this. I can't argue with the numbers, and nobody else is going to get close to 2300 for some time, but it's always cool when a player get's to 2300 and you see it happen, not months after the fact. I think it's JangBi that bothers me most about the list, simply because he's slumping so hard right now, and because EffOrt and fantasy have both proved their metal in decisive PL encounters against some of the best in the game en route to their ELO peaks, whereas JangBi has never really won a high stakes game, and got his ELO peak right before losing to fake yellow and letting Khan lose in winners league. Looking at the list, it looks fine to me. He's only 8 points higher than Kong though with far less league silvers and special match accomplishmenets. Considering that most of JangBi's games were in proleague though compared to mostly tournaments and special matches back then it seems OK. We gotta remember that ELO is slowly inflating a bit over time anyway. It's already up about ~27 points from when the first TLPD data entries were put in around '00/'01 I believe from when I did an analysis in April. If you take this into account we end up with something like: Modern: (P)Bisu 2360 pts
(Z)Jaedong 2358 pts
(T)iloveoov 2344 pts
(T)Flash 2340 pts
(T)NaDa 2319 pts
(Z)sAviOr 2309 pts
(T)BoxeR 2303 pts
(P)JangBi 2302 pts
(T)fantasy 2302 pts
(Z)EffOrt 2301 pts(Z)YellOw 2294 pts (P)Stork 2286 pts (Z)GoRush 2285 pts (Z)Calm 2283 pts ----------------------------- Adjusted (-27 for modern players -- '08/'09 peaks -- because of ELO inflation) (T)iloveoov 2344 pts
(P)Bisu 2333 pts
(Z)Jaedong 2331 pts
(T)NaDa 2319 pts
(T)Flash 2313 pts
(Z)sAviOr 2309 pts
(T)BoxeR 2303 pts(Z)YellOw 2294 pts (Z)GoRush 2285 pts (P)JangBi 2275 pts (T)fantasy 2275 pts (Z)EffOrt 2374 pts (Z)ChoJJa 2271 pts (T)XellOs 2270 pts (T)Midas 2268 pts (T)Hwasin 2266 pts (Z)July 2266 pts (P)Stork 2259 pts (Z)Calm 2256 pts (Z)MuMyung 2253 pts BeSt 2250 pts The result is that there's only the 4 bonjwa's + JD, Bisu, Flash over 2300, and no real other modern player even sniffing close (2275 with fantasy, jangbi, and 2274 with effort close by). Kong and Gorush would even be stronger than these 3 modern players were as well. So basically, if you adjust for inflation the "2300" club makes sense still. Though it's not entirely accurate because not everyone one of the bonjwas played 00/01.
There are more flaws in this approach of just subtracting 27 points than just that. Tournament structure is different and ELO awards streakiness.
Look at it this way: let's suppose you win on average 70% of the time against any gamer. Let's ignore differences in skill of opponents and shit like that. Well, it's not like you always win 7 out of every 10 games; the reality is that there's a certain random chance of streaking because the probability of winning a game is, under this model, an i.i.d. random variable. So, the more games I play, the higher the probability that I will achieve a "hot streak." Not necessarily all consecutive wins, but let's say 85% or better wins over a good span of games (at least 40 games). Doing this will give me a really high ELO rating.
Now, I made a number of assumptions in this that obviously aren't true, but due to the constant evolution of the metagame, progamers tend to win and lose in streaks. If you modeled the wins and losses of progamers, it should appear to be behaving as a psuedo random number generator, rather than a truly random phenomenon, with a high tendency towards streakiness.
But my point I've been making is that those streaks are based on the time it takes for everyone else to "figure you out." So the more games you pack together, the more chaotically one would expect streakiness to occur.
This is how situations like Lucifer come about. What? Who's that? With only 55 total games counting towards ELO, he streaked 12 wins for an ELO peak over 2200, despite having a lifetime record of 28-27 (as of now). I had a huge debate with another forum goer at the time about why Best was the better player. Looking back now, it seems almost laughable that there ever even was a debate.
Just arbitrarily subtracting points from modern winners doesn't really cut it.
By the way, the detailed ELO page seems to keep changing the stats. Right now it says Savior peaked at 2321 and Boxer at 2298. The other day it said Boxer peaked at 2301.
Anyway, the biggest problem I have with it is that players like Effort and Fantasy have higher peaks than Boxer. ELO is supposed to show who is better relative to their respective eras. Would anyone say Effort and Fantasy are more dominant than Boxer was? That idea is laughable! Effort hasn't even made a single finals yet! TBH, I'm a fan of both Effort and Fantasy. They are my favorite S-class gamers right now. And I'll confess that I never became a fan of Boxer until long after his era was over (What can I say? I didn't like Terran at that time.). But Boxer's dominance was obviously more superior than either of these two.
The system of progaming has changed and ELO can't keep track of those changes, which is a huge short-coming as a tool for comparing respective dominance.
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Boxer destroyed EVERYONE in 2001!!!
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Wow... thanks for the updated stats for 12 months...
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Damn, JD and Bisu with 75%+ winning %s with roughly 100 games in that span. That's just simply a sick stat.
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On November 14 2009 22:55 L_P_Monix wrote:
Jaedong played an obscene amount of games in those 12 months
I guess thats what happens when you are on a one man team.
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On November 15 2009 04:40 UGC4 wrote:
Jaedong 119-44 (73.01%)
163 games in 1 year. wow.
If you had that rec on iccup, youd be Olympic rofl, and he did this vs progamers, what a BALLER
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United States6335 Posts
Nal_rA
Thats what I'm talking about. Much respect.
Really nice statistics to find. TYVM.
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EPT
