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ZvP is imbalanced - Page 31

Forum Index > BW General
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Avidkeystamper
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States8556 Posts
October 20 2009 01:05 GMT
#601
I see pros manner pylon the zerg if the opportunity of a 12 hatch and already delaying with the probe presents itself. It's highly situational, but saying that "There is no practical reason to even entertain the notion of doing it." isn't true.
Jaedong
DM20
Profile Joined September 2008
Canada544 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-20 01:39:04
October 20 2009 01:37 GMT
#602
Would arbiters ever be viable in pvz?

PVZ tech gets you all the prereqs fast, and an arbiter camped over a nexus like a corsair would cloak all toss' probes and templar helping against the muta harras.

Or would that be to much wasted gas early on?
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
October 20 2009 01:50 GMT
#603
On October 20 2009 10:37 DM20 wrote:
Would arbiters ever be viable in pvz?

PVZ tech gets you all the prereqs fast, and an arbiter camped over a nexus like a corsair would cloak all toss' probes and templar helping against the muta harras.

Or would that be to much wasted gas early on?

Scourge, man.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
baubo
Profile Joined September 2008
China3370 Posts
October 20 2009 01:53 GMT
#604
On October 20 2009 08:13 zulu_nation8 wrote:
its a waste if you actually build the pylon and not cancel it, its a waste for anything but vs 12 hatch.


Is a manner pylon even worth it against 12 hatch? Early game protoss BO is based on the zerg opening anyway. Zerg can just go pool first, and force toss to go forge->Nex->cannons before teching. OTOH, 14 Nex > 12 Hatch.

On October 20 2009 10:37 DM20 wrote:
Would arbiters ever be viable in pvz?

PVZ tech gets you all the prereqs fast, and an arbiter camped over a nexus like a corsair would cloak all toss' probes and templar helping against the muta harras.

Or would that be to much wasted gas early on?


Defending templars at your base is useless because the zerg can always wait until you push out before sniping. And the gas consumption is WAY too high. Not to mention arbiters are slow as hell to make.

You can basically get DA + mass corsairs for the same price.
Meh
Elite00fm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States548 Posts
October 20 2009 02:03 GMT
#605
I don't see why this is a thread, statistically ZvP is more balanced than PvT and TvZ.
da_head
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3350 Posts
October 20 2009 02:05 GMT
#606
On October 20 2009 11:03 Elite00fm wrote:
I don't see why this is a thread, statistically ZvP is more balanced than PvT and TvZ.

have u even read this thread at all? honestly
When they see MC Probe, all the ladies disrobe.
BanZu
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States3329 Posts
October 20 2009 02:12 GMT
#607
On October 20 2009 11:03 Elite00fm wrote:
I don't see why this is a thread, statistically ZvP is more balanced than PvT and TvZ.

Looool, since when?
Sun Tzu once said, "Defiler becomes useless at the presences of a vessel."
selboN
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2523 Posts
October 20 2009 02:14 GMT
#608
On October 20 2009 09:51 Zato-1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 09:21 selboN wrote:
On October 20 2009 09:01 Jayme wrote:
On October 20 2009 08:12 selboN wrote:
No it's not. Doing it every game out of sheer habit is a waste. But if the zerg late pools, pylon that nat, follow the drone to third. Don't let them put down a hatchery, it is not a waste. You just don't like it because you're zerg. ^_^


Uh I play PvZ and ZvP and i'm telling you straight up that manner pylon on a zerg is an absolute waste. There is no practical reason to even entertain the notion of doing it.

Are you by any chance bad? I'm not saying do it every time. I'm saying do it when the opportunity presents itself.

Yeah, you show 'em! Manner pylons are great in PvZ. I mean, in order to render them completely useless, Zerg would need a cheap, low-tech unit capable of taking down pylons really fast, while simultaneously by its very existence be a threat to the Protoss bases, forcing them to spend minerals on defenses. Additionally, this unit's name would have to start with 'zerg' and rhyme with 'ling'.

Now where on earth would Zergs get that kind of unit?

Good see D- players still sportin' their opinion. Keep it up!
"That's what happens when you're using a mouse made out of glass!" -Tasteless (Referring to ZergBong)
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
October 20 2009 02:21 GMT
#609
On October 20 2009 11:12 BanZu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 11:03 Elite00fm wrote:
I don't see why this is a thread, statistically ZvP is more balanced than PvT and TvZ.

Looool, since when?


since ever
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
October 20 2009 02:28 GMT
#610
On October 20 2009 11:21 fusionsdf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 11:12 BanZu wrote:
On October 20 2009 11:03 Elite00fm wrote:
I don't see why this is a thread, statistically ZvP is more balanced than PvT and TvZ.

Looool, since when?


since ever

maybe since ever

but not since March!
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Elite00fm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States548 Posts
October 20 2009 02:29 GMT
#611
On October 20 2009 11:05 da_head wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 11:03 Elite00fm wrote:
I don't see why this is a thread, statistically ZvP is more balanced than PvT and TvZ.

have u even read this thread at all? honestly


Not entirely. The thread is a joke, you can't just grab a few maps, look at recent results and say "lol imbalanced." If OP actually wants to prove something then what he should do is actually analyze winrates for zvp for the past 6 months or w/e, then compare this figure to TvZ and PvT to see if the win rate discrepancy is significantly (statistically speaking) higher than the other non mirror MUs. If it is in fact imbalanced then the OP should then search for variables that would skew the data (for example, let's say JaeDong accounted for 20% of all zerg wins or something, this doesn't mean zvp is imba, it just means jaedong is ridiculously good lol. Or if for an unusually long period of time certain coaches sent out very new, weak protoss players, a number significantly higher than zergs, who all lost an extremely high % of their games. There are many outside variables that would have to be checked for in order for ZvP to be acually declared "imbalanced").
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
October 20 2009 02:32 GMT
#612
motbob if i tell you to flip a coin 10 times but in those 10 times, 7 were heads, 3 were tails, would you call coin flipping imbalanced?
selboN
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States2523 Posts
October 20 2009 02:59 GMT
#613
On October 20 2009 11:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:
motbob if i tell you to flip a coin 10 times but in those 10 times, 7 were heads, 3 were tails, would you call coin flipping imbalanced?

depends who pocket it came out of ;-)
"That's what happens when you're using a mouse made out of glass!" -Tasteless (Referring to ZergBong)
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
October 20 2009 03:07 GMT
#614
On October 20 2009 11:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:
motbob if i tell you to flip a coin 10 times but in those 10 times, 7 were heads, 3 were tails, would you call coin flipping imbalanced?

What if I were to flip the same coin 100 times, with 70 heads?
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Elite00fm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States548 Posts
October 20 2009 03:11 GMT
#615
On October 20 2009 12:07 motbob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 11:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:
motbob if i tell you to flip a coin 10 times but in those 10 times, 7 were heads, 3 were tails, would you call coin flipping imbalanced?

What if I were to flip the same coin 100 times, with 70 heads?


man heads runs good
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
October 20 2009 03:15 GMT
#616
On October 20 2009 12:07 motbob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 11:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:
motbob if i tell you to flip a coin 10 times but in those 10 times, 7 were heads, 3 were tails, would you call coin flipping imbalanced?

What if I were to flip the same coin 100 times, with 70 heads?


you should clearly make a thread about coin flipping imbalance then
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-20 03:24:55
October 20 2009 03:17 GMT
#617
On October 20 2009 12:15 zulu_nation8 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 12:07 motbob wrote:
On October 20 2009 11:32 zulu_nation8 wrote:
motbob if i tell you to flip a coin 10 times but in those 10 times, 7 were heads, 3 were tails, would you call coin flipping imbalanced?

What if I were to flip the same coin 100 times, with 70 heads?


you should clearly make a thread about coin flipping imbalance then

What the hell? Who brought up coin-flipping in the first place? Don't just dismiss the line of reasoning you started.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-10-20 03:33:11
October 20 2009 03:30 GMT
#618
how am i dismissing the line of reasoning? I'm saying 1, your sample size is bad, 2, when something that looks very much like variance occurs in a set of data you ignore everything and jump to the conclusion that something is "imbalanced." If what you actually wanted to bring to attention at first is indeed variance then you should be using words like trends, shift, or whatever, and not "imbalance."
motbob
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States12546 Posts
October 20 2009 03:42 GMT
#619
On October 20 2009 12:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
how am i dismissing the line of reasoning? I'm saying 1, your sample size is bad, 2, when something that looks very much like variance occurs in a set of data you ignore everything and jump to the conclusion that something is "imbalanced." If what you actually wanted to bring to attention at first is indeed variance then you should be using words like trends, shift, or whatever, and not "imbalance."

Is this what all of your hostility in this thread comes from? The fact that I used one word instead of another? Fine. I wish I hadn't named this thread what I did.

My sample size is most definitely big enough for this difference in zerg winrate to be statistically significant. Unfortunately, I've only been able to calculate winrate on individual maps, as TLPD doesn't allow you to sort by matchup when you're looking at all the matches in the database.
ModeratorGood content always wins.
Elite00fm
Profile Joined January 2008
United States548 Posts
October 20 2009 03:45 GMT
#620
On October 20 2009 12:42 motbob wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2009 12:30 zulu_nation8 wrote:
how am i dismissing the line of reasoning? I'm saying 1, your sample size is bad, 2, when something that looks very much like variance occurs in a set of data you ignore everything and jump to the conclusion that something is "imbalanced." If what you actually wanted to bring to attention at first is indeed variance then you should be using words like trends, shift, or whatever, and not "imbalance."

Is this what all of your hostility in this thread comes from? The fact that I used one word instead of another? Fine. I wish I hadn't named this thread what I did.

My sample size is most definitely big enough for this difference in zerg winrate to be statistically significant. Unfortunately, I've only been able to calculate winrate on individual maps, as TLPD doesn't allow you to sort by matchup when you're looking at all the matches in the database.


show me your calculations that show the difference to be statistically significant
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