• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:59
CEST 05:59
KST 12:59
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
Rollback Netcode in Brood War845.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 202622Weekly Cups Results (Sep 28-Oct 4)0SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)78
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.17 Patch Notes - October 7, 2026 ESL Pro Tour for SC2 discontinued [Old] StarCraft 3 Reportedly in Development StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR?
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) ISSL (IntoTheTV x SOOP SC2 League): Premier RSL 2026 Offline Finals LCQ Sign-Ups $3,500 WardiTV Not-Summer Championship ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 547 Temple Of Terror Mutation # 546 Catch the Train Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion ASL FINALS HYPE VIDEO 2X Visiting korea this week BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues ASL 22 Finals [ASL22] Semifinal A [ASL22] Semifinal B
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25!
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Link Between Gaming and …
TrAiDoS
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 13858 users

Spirit of Argument

Blogs > Shiverfish
Post a Reply
Shiverfish
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Canada95 Posts
August 09 2009 04:23 GMT
#1
Free speech is a privilege many of us value highly as a fundamental right. People are allowed to voice their opinions on almost anything they wish, so long as it does not violate some boundaries of other rights. Everyone has their own views on topics. Differences in opinion lead to disagreement and debate, a natural attempt to convince the opposing party that one’s own stance is the correct one.

Debates on internet forums have become a major medium for discussion. The ultimate goal is to convince all sides that your own views are true, or at the very least, to educate the opposition of their faulty logic. But what is the true incidence of success and satisfaction derived from such debates? In almost all cases, each side is steadfastly locked on their opinion, and unwilling to change their position. It seems participating in such an argument is a trial in patience and stamina, until one side grows tired of the argument and realizes the futility of the exercise.

I shall give a background of my own attitudes towards conflict. I grew up in an environment where my parents never got along. They were constantly fighting and bickering over every small thing. As a child, I considered myself still too young to interfere with adult business, and stayed out of their arguments. As my brothers grew older, they began to have some rebellious tendencies of typical teenage nature, which was another source of conflict in the household. I was rarely involved. Instead I turned to my computer games and ignored all the screaming and yelling. Many nights I would lie on my bed, trying to sleep through another raucous shouting match, apparently not interested in the issue and never bothering to get in the way. I was most annoyed that the majority of issues were small, trivial matters that escalated quickly into broken glass and holes in the walls I would find the next morning. I blame these experiences as having a large impact on my personality today.

Since I had gotten into the habit of staying out of the conflict, I never became an avid participant in arguments or debates. I would judge from a distance and draw my own conclusions on who was right or wrong. I have a strong tendency to avoid confrontational conflict, often at my own expense.

Inspired by the “true cause of extinction” thread on global warming, the chance of convincing the opposition to one’s own viewpoint is dismal and absolutely. Surely no one truly expects the other side to cave in, on an internet forum no less. Why even bother with trying so hard?

One major problem inherent in such a debate is the use of supporting facts to back up the respective arguments. Take the claim that “the overwhelming consensus of the science community is in support of man-made global warming”. Firstly, who exactly are the people who qualify as the science experts on the matter? Perhaps the geologists and climatologists or whatever other discipline that studies these areas. But it seems to me these fields are more about collecting data on various factors and analyzing trends and forecasting patterns. A distinction should be made between researchers and scientists. Pure science should be backed by the results and observations of replicable experiments. The venerable fields of physics, chemistry, and to a lesser extent biology, have their origins in the scientific method and have produced some very elegant conclusions.

However, when applying this knowledge to a very complex system of natural weather systems, results are less replicable and innumerable variables come into play. Applied science in geology and climatology or whatever else is still relatively new. The statistics people gather are directly from the field of nature and not easily reproducible in a lab. Hence any conclusions drawn from such research can be easily skewed by interpreters to suit whatever agenda they already have in mind.

Global warming is a special issue because of it is heavily influenced by political and media directives. Experts who speak against man-made global warming (ie. deny its impact) are quickly discredited and face immense pressures from the community. But as history has shown, the majority is not always correct.

Thus it can be said that the only time I would bother pointing out my arguments is when I feel that the audience can be influenced by my words. Arguing when you know the opposition will not budge is pointless and wasteful. In fact, this is the logic I often adopt: my opposition is wrong in their beliefs. They are at a disadvantage, while I hold the correct viewpoint. If I use my efforts to enlighten them on their position, I lose my competitive advantage. Thus I can benefit from exploiting their ignorance, leaving them in the dark while forging ahead myself.

This of course is not applicable when the issue affects a public good, such as the environment. Then debate must take place, but sometimes, an infinite amount of persuasion still fails to change the minds of those locked in their beliefs. Ultimately it is up to the leader’s decisions that make the difference in what is accomplished.

Kinda weird I'm writing an essay here for no reason. Whatever, maybe the next one will be more interesting.

***
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
August 09 2009 04:31 GMT
#2
Thus it can be said that the only time I would bother pointing out my arguments is when I feel that the audience can be influenced by my words. Arguing when you know the opposition will not budge is pointless and wasteful. In fact, this is the logic I often adopt: my opposition is wrong in their beliefs. They are at a disadvantage, while I hold the correct viewpoint. If I use my efforts to enlighten them on their position, I lose my competitive advantage. Thus I can benefit from exploiting their ignorance, leaving them in the dark while forging ahead myself.


That's a nice paragraph that sums up my views as well - trying to enlighten an ignorant person is a waste of your personal effort, better spent on something that will benefit you.

Nice essay too. I certainly wouldn't argue against global warming, because it actually can be replicated in a controlled experiment - airtight greenhouse with variable levels of CO2 would be a relative accurate replication of the effects of GH gases on global average temperatures.
Because what's important in the end isn't replicating the experiment with 100% accuracy, but rather reducing CO2 levels.
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
August 09 2009 04:56 GMT
#3
I'm going to have to disagree slightly. The goal of debates (especially on the internet) are not to convince the opposition that your view is the correct one, and I don't think it should be. I feel that these arguments/discussions serve the purpose of educating, correcting and enlightening the people who read/listen to them. In a more casual or intimate setting that goal may be different, but in this context it is much more an exchange of ideas than an exercise in persuasion.
Soli Deo gloria.
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
August 09 2009 07:46 GMT
#4
I disagree with your argument.

While it makes sense that, at least ideally, you should only make an argument when you are certain that your targets will be convinced, you typically cannot know if they are block-heads after you have made your argument. Although it is undeniable that in certain circumstances you may know your targets well, but that knowledge is most likely gained through previous attempts of arguing with them. Therefore, in a way your point of view is self-defeating.

Secondly I wholeheartedly believe that reading others' counterargument benefits you as well. Through arguing with others, especially ones that do not share your point of view, will often educate you in two ways. For one you can learn your mistakes and flaws that others may point out, and secondly you also learn how others think.

Of course, nothing is good when you have too much of it. An excessive amount of repetitive arguing will certainly do no good. Once in a while, however, I think it is beneficial to talk about a hot topic with friendly manner.
:]
Medzo
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States627 Posts
August 09 2009 08:56 GMT
#5
Pride can change the way you remember things, it can make you act like someone you're not, and most of all it can make you argue against anything. Most people just want to feel like they have something important to say, or are important, so they argue for or against something (ANYTHING). One of the best ways to influence someone is to tell them they are right and then add in whatever. Once you get passed their guard for self-worth and a person is no longer threatened they are more agreeable.

I think one of the biggest problems with arguing (besides the sometimes complete ignorance) is definitions. People will sometimes argue for hours and not even really be talking about the same thing.

I think knowing these two things is important. Because if you know and apply the above to facts you can avoid an arguement, which to me has been infinately more better than being good at arguing because I agree with the notion that the only time arguing with someone might be useful is if you're trying to influence a 3rd party.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 1m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 244
ProTech142
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 3373
GuemChi 2025
Sharp 235
Aegong 42
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm189
Counter-Strike
taco 710
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King97
Other Games
summit1g6728
JimRising 679
WinterStarcraft537
C9.Mang0289
PiGStarcraft269
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV137
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Letter1413
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo885
• Rush277
• Stunt202
Other Games
• Shiphtur615
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Weekly
7h 1m
PiGosaur Cup
20h 1m
Kung Fu Cup
1d 7h
The PondCast
2 days
Online Event
3 days
Korean StarCraft League
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Rush vs Soulkey
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
BSL Open Qualifier
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
IPSL
5 days
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
WardiTV Weekly
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-10-12
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
HCC Season 3
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.