• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 01:29
CEST 07:29
KST 14:29
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!29Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week4Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles2GSTL Returns in 2026!45Weekly Cups (Aug 3-9): Protoss get shut out7
StarCraft 2
General
How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Starcraft2 player guess game is Coming~! Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey!
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Announcement IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) WORTEX 2026 - Hungarian SC2 Finals Budapest
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 540 Dodge This The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome Mutation # 538 Media Blackout
Brood War
General
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! [ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call Farewell Beloved Starcraft (Youtube Videos) BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro24 Group F [ASL22] Ro24 Group E [ASL22] Ro24 Group D Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Replay Review Process - What do you do? Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Dating: How's your luck? Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The Creator Fan Club MarineLorD Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Young Players Exit Esports E…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Hello guys!
LIN1s
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6608 users

Spirit of Argument

Blogs > Shiverfish
Post a Reply
Shiverfish
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Canada95 Posts
August 09 2009 04:23 GMT
#1
Free speech is a privilege many of us value highly as a fundamental right. People are allowed to voice their opinions on almost anything they wish, so long as it does not violate some boundaries of other rights. Everyone has their own views on topics. Differences in opinion lead to disagreement and debate, a natural attempt to convince the opposing party that one’s own stance is the correct one.

Debates on internet forums have become a major medium for discussion. The ultimate goal is to convince all sides that your own views are true, or at the very least, to educate the opposition of their faulty logic. But what is the true incidence of success and satisfaction derived from such debates? In almost all cases, each side is steadfastly locked on their opinion, and unwilling to change their position. It seems participating in such an argument is a trial in patience and stamina, until one side grows tired of the argument and realizes the futility of the exercise.

I shall give a background of my own attitudes towards conflict. I grew up in an environment where my parents never got along. They were constantly fighting and bickering over every small thing. As a child, I considered myself still too young to interfere with adult business, and stayed out of their arguments. As my brothers grew older, they began to have some rebellious tendencies of typical teenage nature, which was another source of conflict in the household. I was rarely involved. Instead I turned to my computer games and ignored all the screaming and yelling. Many nights I would lie on my bed, trying to sleep through another raucous shouting match, apparently not interested in the issue and never bothering to get in the way. I was most annoyed that the majority of issues were small, trivial matters that escalated quickly into broken glass and holes in the walls I would find the next morning. I blame these experiences as having a large impact on my personality today.

Since I had gotten into the habit of staying out of the conflict, I never became an avid participant in arguments or debates. I would judge from a distance and draw my own conclusions on who was right or wrong. I have a strong tendency to avoid confrontational conflict, often at my own expense.

Inspired by the “true cause of extinction” thread on global warming, the chance of convincing the opposition to one’s own viewpoint is dismal and absolutely. Surely no one truly expects the other side to cave in, on an internet forum no less. Why even bother with trying so hard?

One major problem inherent in such a debate is the use of supporting facts to back up the respective arguments. Take the claim that “the overwhelming consensus of the science community is in support of man-made global warming”. Firstly, who exactly are the people who qualify as the science experts on the matter? Perhaps the geologists and climatologists or whatever other discipline that studies these areas. But it seems to me these fields are more about collecting data on various factors and analyzing trends and forecasting patterns. A distinction should be made between researchers and scientists. Pure science should be backed by the results and observations of replicable experiments. The venerable fields of physics, chemistry, and to a lesser extent biology, have their origins in the scientific method and have produced some very elegant conclusions.

However, when applying this knowledge to a very complex system of natural weather systems, results are less replicable and innumerable variables come into play. Applied science in geology and climatology or whatever else is still relatively new. The statistics people gather are directly from the field of nature and not easily reproducible in a lab. Hence any conclusions drawn from such research can be easily skewed by interpreters to suit whatever agenda they already have in mind.

Global warming is a special issue because of it is heavily influenced by political and media directives. Experts who speak against man-made global warming (ie. deny its impact) are quickly discredited and face immense pressures from the community. But as history has shown, the majority is not always correct.

Thus it can be said that the only time I would bother pointing out my arguments is when I feel that the audience can be influenced by my words. Arguing when you know the opposition will not budge is pointless and wasteful. In fact, this is the logic I often adopt: my opposition is wrong in their beliefs. They are at a disadvantage, while I hold the correct viewpoint. If I use my efforts to enlighten them on their position, I lose my competitive advantage. Thus I can benefit from exploiting their ignorance, leaving them in the dark while forging ahead myself.

This of course is not applicable when the issue affects a public good, such as the environment. Then debate must take place, but sometimes, an infinite amount of persuasion still fails to change the minds of those locked in their beliefs. Ultimately it is up to the leader’s decisions that make the difference in what is accomplished.

Kinda weird I'm writing an essay here for no reason. Whatever, maybe the next one will be more interesting.

***
Sadistx
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
August 09 2009 04:31 GMT
#2
Thus it can be said that the only time I would bother pointing out my arguments is when I feel that the audience can be influenced by my words. Arguing when you know the opposition will not budge is pointless and wasteful. In fact, this is the logic I often adopt: my opposition is wrong in their beliefs. They are at a disadvantage, while I hold the correct viewpoint. If I use my efforts to enlighten them on their position, I lose my competitive advantage. Thus I can benefit from exploiting their ignorance, leaving them in the dark while forging ahead myself.


That's a nice paragraph that sums up my views as well - trying to enlighten an ignorant person is a waste of your personal effort, better spent on something that will benefit you.

Nice essay too. I certainly wouldn't argue against global warming, because it actually can be replicated in a controlled experiment - airtight greenhouse with variable levels of CO2 would be a relative accurate replication of the effects of GH gases on global average temperatures.
Because what's important in the end isn't replicating the experiment with 100% accuracy, but rather reducing CO2 levels.
Chromyne
Profile Joined January 2008
Canada561 Posts
August 09 2009 04:56 GMT
#3
I'm going to have to disagree slightly. The goal of debates (especially on the internet) are not to convince the opposition that your view is the correct one, and I don't think it should be. I feel that these arguments/discussions serve the purpose of educating, correcting and enlightening the people who read/listen to them. In a more casual or intimate setting that goal may be different, but in this context it is much more an exchange of ideas than an exercise in persuasion.
Soli Deo gloria.
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
August 09 2009 07:46 GMT
#4
I disagree with your argument.

While it makes sense that, at least ideally, you should only make an argument when you are certain that your targets will be convinced, you typically cannot know if they are block-heads after you have made your argument. Although it is undeniable that in certain circumstances you may know your targets well, but that knowledge is most likely gained through previous attempts of arguing with them. Therefore, in a way your point of view is self-defeating.

Secondly I wholeheartedly believe that reading others' counterargument benefits you as well. Through arguing with others, especially ones that do not share your point of view, will often educate you in two ways. For one you can learn your mistakes and flaws that others may point out, and secondly you also learn how others think.

Of course, nothing is good when you have too much of it. An excessive amount of repetitive arguing will certainly do no good. Once in a while, however, I think it is beneficial to talk about a hot topic with friendly manner.
:]
Medzo
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States627 Posts
August 09 2009 08:56 GMT
#5
Pride can change the way you remember things, it can make you act like someone you're not, and most of all it can make you argue against anything. Most people just want to feel like they have something important to say, or are important, so they argue for or against something (ANYTHING). One of the best ways to influence someone is to tell them they are right and then add in whatever. Once you get passed their guard for self-worth and a person is no longer threatened they are more agreeable.

I think one of the biggest problems with arguing (besides the sometimes complete ignorance) is definitions. People will sometimes argue for hours and not even really be talking about the same thing.

I think knowing these two things is important. Because if you know and apply the above to facts you can avoid an arguement, which to me has been infinately more better than being good at arguing because I agree with the notion that the only time arguing with someone might be useful is if you're trying to influence a 3rd party.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
2026 GSTL: Main Stage Day 2
CranKy Ducklings120
Discussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
WinterStarcraft518
ProTech128
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 2181
GuemChi 1515
Leta 112
Dewaltoss 61
Bale 23
firebathero 0
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm182
League of Legends
JimRising 686
Counter-Strike
summit1g5513
m0e_tv49
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox686
Mew2King107
Other Games
C9.Mang0168
Livibee123
RuFF_SC283
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV51
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH361
• practicex 21
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota2932
• lizZardDota2132
League of Legends
• Lourlo1155
• Rush1084
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
4h 31m
Replay Cast
18h 31m
Escore
1d 4h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
1d 5h
Korean StarCraft League
1d 20h
GSL
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
WardiTV Weekly
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
[ Show More ]
GSL
5 days
PiGosaur Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 22: Qualifier 1
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
META DYMY #4

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL Season 22: Qualifier 2
RSL Revival: Season 6
Light Tournament 2026
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

BSL 2026 LAN: Kraków
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.