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Calculus help

Blogs > Faronel
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1 2 Next All
Faronel
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States658 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 23:36:17
July 18 2009 23:32 GMT
#1
So I'm in a moment of desperation; I have an assignemnt due next week, but I won't have internet access to hand it in for the next 10 days. so I had to start off my wondrous blog with a math question. I was thinking about using a triangle inequality proof, but I have no clue where to start.

The assignment I'm currently working on has to deal with delta-epsilon proofs of limits. The question is to prove that

If the limit of f(x) as x -> c exists and

limit of [f(x) + g(x)] as x -> c does not exist

then limit of g(x) as x-> c does not exist.



C'est la vie...
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-18 23:53:18
July 18 2009 23:46 GMT
#2
Use the linearity of the limit laws
+ Show Spoiler +
let the limit of f(x) as x->c = L
the limit of [f(x) + g(x)] as x->c does not exist
Assume that the limit of g(x) as x->c = M
Then lim(f) + lim(g) = L+M which belongs to the reals (or complex, depends on which field you are working on)
By the additive limit law lim (f(x)+g(x)) = lim(f)+lim(g) => lim(f)+lim(g) does not exist
but lim(f)+lim(g) = L+M which does exist ... (insert contradiction symbol here)
Hence, the limit of g cannot exist if lim(f+g) does not exist
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
goldrush
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada709 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-19 00:07:40
July 19 2009 00:02 GMT
#3
I am assuming that as this is a proof on the eps-delta definition of the limit, that you'll want a proof using that.

+ Show Spoiler +

proof by contradiction:

say that the limit of g(x) as x -> c did exist

assumptions: the limit of f(x) as x -> c exists
limit of [f(x) + g(x)] as x -> c does not exist

Let eps > 0, the hypothetical limit of g(x) as x -> c as L and the limit of f(x) as x-> c as W.

then there for every epsilon > 0, there exists a delta > 0 such that if | x - c | < delta then | g(x) - L | < eps/2.

and

for every epsilon > 0, there exists a delta > 0 such that if | x - c | < delta then | f(x) - W | < eps/2.

But we know from the triangle inequality that | f(x) - W + g(x) - L | <= | f(x) - W | + | g(x) - L| < eps and so, | [ f(x) + g(x) ] - [ W + L ] | < eps

but then this implies that:

for every epsilon > 0, there exists a delta > 0 such that if | x - c | < delta then | f(x) + g(x) - (W + L) | < eps, or that the limit of f(x) + g(x) is W+L, which is a contradiction from our assumptions.



+ Show Spoiler +

really, really shitty notation and poor proof-writing skills. I blame the summer vacation for doing that, not to mention that I never really learn how to write proofs well. Hell, for all I know I missed something big. But that's a quick outline of my proof.


Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-19 00:07:39
July 19 2009 00:06 GMT
#4
Of course this question is essentially the same as the law Plexa describes (it's a contrapositive).

I don't know if you're allowed to assume the law that lim(x-->c) f = M and lim(x-->c) g = N implies
lim(x-->c) (f+g) = M+N.

If not, the simple proof runs as follows:

Let epsilon>0 be arbitrary. Select some delta_1 such that |f(x)-M|<epsilon/2 when |x-c|<delta_1. Select some delta_2 such that |g(x)-N|<epsilon/2 when |x-c|<delta_2. Now let delta be the minimum of delta_1 and delta_2.

When |x-c|<delta we have that |f(x)+g(x)-(M+N)| <= |f(x)-M|+|g(x)-N|<2*(epsilon/2)=epsilon.

EDIT: I see goldrush posted before me ^^, though he glosses over the important point that you must choose delta=min(delta_1,delta_2)
starleague.mit.edu
goldrush
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Canada709 Posts
July 19 2009 00:08 GMT
#5
Muirhead is right. Whoops!
illu
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada2531 Posts
July 19 2009 00:29 GMT
#6
I think using indirect proof is much easier.

We first assume that we know linearity of limits. If we do not know that, consult any reasonable analysis textbook for a proof.

Now suppose limit of g(x) as x-> c exists; then since the limit of f(x) as x -> c exists, linearity gives that limit of [f(x) + g(x)] as x -> c exists, which is a contradiction. QED
:]
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-19 01:00:06
July 19 2009 00:59 GMT
#7
TL COMMANDMENTS

"This includes non-StarCraft related voting campaigns (vote for my friend in this contest!) or blatant threads asking for homework advice (how do I solve this equation??). TeamLiquid is not your personal army. It is not a substitute for Google or a tool for lazy students. We're here to discuss things and have fun, not for your own selfish needs.

You've been warned." -Manifesto

Oh yeah that little thing that keeps the site running smoothly, and by breaking one of these rules im assuming you didnt know about it which breaks another rule by being ignorant of the TL rules.
:7
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
Muirhead
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States556 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-19 01:05:42
July 19 2009 01:03 GMT
#8
Eh... I think it's cruel to equate asking for anlaysis help with asking for high school algebra help. The way I see it we're all here to help each other out here, and it's not easy to find people who know even moderately advanced math.
starleague.mit.edu
Faronel
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States658 Posts
July 19 2009 01:10 GMT
#9
Thanks plexa, goldrush and muirhead for the rather detailed responses. Yea it is pretty hard to get help this advanced from regular sites like yahoo answers, or just googling answers. TL is a genius.



+ Show Spoiler +
On July 19 2009 09:59 GreEny K wrote:
TL COMMANDMENTS

"This includes non-StarCraft related voting campaigns (vote for my friend in this contest!) or blatant threads asking for homework advice (how do I solve this equation??). TeamLiquid is not your personal army. It is not a substitute for Google or a tool for lazy students. We're here to discuss things and have fun, not for your own selfish needs.

You've been warned." -Manifesto

Oh yeah that little thing that keeps the site running smoothly, and by breaking one of these rules im assuming you didnt know about it which breaks another rule by being ignorant of the TL rules.
:7

What would you suggest hari kari?
C'est la vie...
ilistis
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
United States828 Posts
July 19 2009 01:20 GMT
#10
On July 19 2009 09:59 GreEny K wrote:
TL COMMANDMENTS

"This includes non-StarCraft related voting campaigns (vote for my friend in this contest!) or blatant threads asking for homework advice (how do I solve this equation??). TeamLiquid is not your personal army. It is not a substitute for Google or a tool for lazy students. We're here to discuss things and have fun, not for your own selfish needs.

You've been warned." -Manifesto

Oh yeah that little thing that keeps the site running smoothly, and by breaking one of these rules im assuming you didnt know about it which breaks another rule by being ignorant of the TL rules.
:7


Yet Plexa answered it and he's tl.net staff....
"The man who removes a mountain begins by carrying away small stones."-William Faulkner *_*_*_Kolll FAN_*_*_*
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
July 19 2009 01:22 GMT
#11
PARADOX!
moriya
Profile Joined March 2009
United States54 Posts
July 19 2009 01:38 GMT
#12
Obviously the purpose of this problem is helping u be familair with delta-epsilon system. Murihead's answer is what they expected. Plexa did nothing but cited another law which is based on this kind of derivation.

The situation is just like, the problem is asking u to prove Pythagoras's Theorem, but u cited a more advanced Law of cosines and said, look, how easy it is! c^2=a^2+b^2-2abcos(90)=a^2+b^2!But u did NOT touch the core of problem at all. Never. Do you know why the law of cosines is like that?

Math is teaching u how to think independently but not remembering laws.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-19 02:20:00
July 19 2009 02:08 GMT
#13
Math is teaching you to thinking logically
the any of the limit laws can easily be derived using anything from the sequential criterion for limits to straight up using epsilon-delta machinery.

With that said, the arguments employed are exactly the same in both cases - except one has the complete solution and the other has the sketch solution. The latter, imo, is better for a thread like this. The reason being is that it gives the op the chance to complete the proof the e-d methods since from the outset it looked like he was confused about how to approach the problem.

Nevertheless its a rather trivial problem in analysis any way you look at it
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
July 19 2009 02:16 GMT
#14
On July 19 2009 10:38 moriya wrote:
Obviously the purpose of this problem is helping u be familair with delta-epsilon system. Murihead's answer is what they expected. Plexa did nothing but cited another law which is based on this kind of derivation.

The situation is just like, the problem is asking u to prove Pythagoras's Theorem, but u cited a more advanced Law of cosines and said, look, how easy it is! c^2=a^2+b^2-2abcos(90)=a^2+b^2!But u did NOT touch the core of problem at all. Never. Do you know why the law of cosines is like that?

Math is teaching u how to think independently but not remembering laws.

As long as you know how the limit algebra works the answer is pretty much the same. I mean the "correct" answer from your point of view is the same as the proof of limit addition applied to this case. As long as you remember the law and where it came from it doesnt matter how you prove something. Math is not how to think independantly, be cautious.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
moriya
Profile Joined March 2009
United States54 Posts
July 19 2009 02:17 GMT
#15
ROFL.

Please prove the lim(f/g)=lim(f)/lim(g) using ur logic way but not resorting to any laws.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
July 19 2009 02:28 GMT
#16
On July 19 2009 11:17 moriya wrote:
ROFL.

Please prove the lim(f/g)=lim(f)/lim(g) using ur logic way but not resorting to any laws.

The problem here is that what you have written is not true...
If lim(g) =/= 0 then lim(f/g)=lim(f)/lim(g) be careful!!
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
moriya
Profile Joined March 2009
United States54 Posts
July 19 2009 02:28 GMT
#17
Anyone with basic math knowledge can judge the intelligence level of plexa and murihead's solution.
But some one try to say they are "smart" and even warn others.
It's really annoying.
moriya
Profile Joined March 2009
United States54 Posts
July 19 2009 02:30 GMT
#18
Certainly i am aware of that "trivial" thing, using ur word, just lazy to input them.
But u r so picky, so i add them, please prove that when lim(g)!=0.
On July 19 2009 11:28 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 19 2009 11:17 moriya wrote:
ROFL.

Please prove the lim(f/g)=lim(f)/lim(g) using ur logic way but not resorting to any laws.

The problem here is that what you have written is not true...
If lim(g) =/= 0 then lim(f/g)=lim(f)/lim(g) be careful!!

moriya
Profile Joined March 2009
United States54 Posts
July 19 2009 02:33 GMT
#19
And for the OP, I suggest u also put plexa's proof to ur homework and see what happened.
Malongo
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Chile3472 Posts
July 19 2009 02:35 GMT
#20
On July 19 2009 11:28 moriya wrote:
Anyone with basic math knowledge can judge the intelligence level of plexa and murihead's solution.
But some one try to say they are "smart" and even warn others.
It's really annoying.

Are you trolling? I just showed you that both are the same.
Help me! im still improving my English. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. M. G.
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