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Lemme just get right into it. I've been focusing largely on my ZvP, which has for once been a bit easy. See, I can't host games, as I'm still working on getting a wired connection to my computer, and as a result, rather than hosting and being able to practice the matchup of my choice on the map of my choice, I'm forced to just play whatever game I can get in before it fills up. I've recently realized how detrimental this is to my practice quality.
Anyway, that's not too big of a problem when I'm trying to focus on ZvP, since, ya know, it's not hard to find a protoss on ICCup.
Somewhat related, playing against D+ players has really solidified my game compared to when I was playing primarily D level players. Though I'm probably done for this season, as I have some things to deal with over the next week (chores, find a summer job, look into some apartments, as well as an intense craving for Final Fantasy Tactics, Resident Evil 4, and Metroid Prime 3, and also some entrepreneurial projects I'm working on). So I'm ending this season with 2379 and a 48-83 record. I'm really excited to mass game for the first week of the new season though, and get a chance to play against way better players. The best I got this season was some Korean who get to B before transferring his stats. Hoping to top that this season. It's like fishing, really.
That said, I'll just get into the analysis before I get too long-winded.
1v1 analysis:
Zerg(30 games)
( 7)ZvZ: 3- 4 42.8%
(13)ZvP: 6- 7 46.1%
(10)ZvT: 4- 6 40.0%
13-17 43.3%
This Season:
Zerg(131 games)
(32)ZvZ: 13-19 40.6%
(60)ZvP: 21-39 35.0%
(39)ZvT: 14-25 35.9%
48-83 36.6%
ZvZ: I think I just gotta get a bit faster/better/more accurate in ZvZ, I think I've got several builds down well and just need practice.
ZvP: So I've re-revamped my ZvP. My old game plan was a version of 4hatch hydra that I described in my last report. Comments (which I thank you for) suggested that 4hatch hydra is basically just inferior to it's 5hatch brother. I've switched over to it, but as I'm just getting the hang of it, it's pretty sloppy as of yet. I need to practice it more, though it has worked pretty well once. It seems like, if the build is properly executed, it forces the protoss to do everything at once, and if the protoss player slips up, you just run him over. That's what happened the one game I won; I peeked my forces into his nat, saw he had gotten DTs instead of HTs (so no psi storm) and it was over (I had ovie speed already).
Other than that, I haven't really gotten too much chance to practice my 5hatch hydra skills, because the protosses I've been playing against lately have been doing 1 base builds quite a bit lately. Weird, but I'm happy with it. I've never lost against a 1 base build ZvP, unless it was a 9/10 gate. IMO, FE is the strongest PvZ build, period, unless there's some special, non-standard map quality that would make it otherwise.
I was having a lot of trouble dealing with the 9/10 gate, but I studied how to deal with it quite a bit, and I feel much more confident when I meet it in the future, many thanks to this. So I guess, just need to practice and solidify my play here too.
Oh, another thing I wanted to mention about ZvP is an idea I got watching a proleague game. Blocking the ramp seems like a great idea for Zerg. When 12hatching, just send a drone a bit earlier and block the ramp. If the probe never shows (almost never gonna happen), just make the hatch and you lost like 16 to 24 minerals I guess. But if the probe does show up, the fact that you're blocking your ramp is gonna make that protoss think/do a couple things: first, he's probably gonna play safe and start cannons asap, second, when you have enough minerals for your 12hatch, you "accidentally" let the probe in, and he's got to scout your pool timing, and thus allow you to place your 12hatch freely. See, the only reason probes can get all faggy and block your 12hatch normally is because they've already scouted your pool timing, or they arrive just in time to see your drone go for a 12hatch, and can infer that you're 12hatching and don't have an early pool. If you just block your ramp for a bit, you don't give any of this information to your protoss opponent. He has to either play safe or risk losing to a 5 or 9 pool stupidly. Of course, as the Zerg player, you may want to mix in an occasional pool first build and block your ramp. All bark and no bite only works once.
ZvT: So, ZvT mech, what can I say. Destination is worse than Python now. For a while, I started just going 2hatch muta standard since it's safer against mech, but I honestly don't like that idea.
My latest build that I've been having success against bio terran is something I mentioned in a past report, and got the idea from F91. I recently wrote it up:
+ Show Spoiler +ZvT practice: F91 3hatch Lurker 1.0
Dan Moldaschel
-9 scout
-12 hatch
-11 pool
-3 drones
-13 hatch
-transfer 3 drones, make 6 lings and gas
-16 overlord
-drone whore, making creep colonies only as needed,
using a ling scout to know when to morph sunks
-lair with first 100 gas
-evo a second after lair starts
-carapace when evo is done
-den a few seconds after carapace starts. The reasoning
behind this is that you're going to get a stronger mineral
economy than a standard 3hatch muta, so as to pump mass
lings for midgame, which fare well along with a few lurkers
and the +1 carapace (lings go from 6 shots to 8). Anyway,
since you wouldn't have enough gas to start lurker tech when
lair finishes anyway, you may as well start the den a bit late.
-nat gas when lair finishes
-should start lurker tech asap when den is done, should occur
around 5:05 to 5:15
-ling speed next
-make another hatch for production, and expo as soon as possible
-your first move out group should be 3-5 lurkers, and 18-24
lings, with +1 carapace just finished. Your goal is map control
to secure your expo. Don't engage his marine force unless it's
a pushover (which it might be if he hasn't reinforced. +1
carapace goes a long way against 0/0 marines).
-when +1 finishes, start +2, second evo for melee 1 optional,
and get a queens nest and spire. The rest of your gas goes into
lurkers
-hive asap, defilers, etc.
The +1carapace lurkerling is surprisingly strong against mnm in the time window before he has +1atk (or armor I guess), and the goal is to push him back to his base, and mass and delay until defilers own it up. Lings go from 6 shots to 8, and lurkers go from 25 shots to 32.
Of course, 2hatch muta is fun too.
Questions:
ZvZ:
None here.
ZvP:
1. What do you think of blocking the ramp as I described in ZvP?
ZvT:
1. Against mech, when am I supposed to take my 3rd gas? 4th gas? Should I go mass muta, mass hydra, or a mix? I suppose I should listen to Day[9]'s mech talk again. Thing is, I always thought mass muta was superior, but I've always had more success (what little there was) with mass hydra. And mixing never worked, I think because my control was/is too weak. Actually, it's probably more my macro than my micro.
As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome.
Fantasy Proleague bonus!
Here I'm just gonna give my thoughts on Fantasy proleague, my team, and what I'm thinking about next season's picks.
My team:
Jaedong
Stork
Skyhigh
Luxury
Xellos
by.hero
KTF
So, pretty shitty team actually. For one, Luxury slumped hard like a huge failure. I paid 5 points, and he's been worth 1.5. Huge loss. That said, he'll probably only be 1 or 2 points to buy next round, but his play so far has been so atrocious I don't think I can even do that (he's 1-8, with a 6 game losing streak, including losses in ZvZ, his strongest matchup)
Xellos was originally Oversky in my team. But I switched, not knowing Xellos was going to be in basic training for the first 5 of 7 weeks or whatever, so I kinda got screwed there. That said, even without playing any games (he did actually play one game, but lost) he was a positive investment through team wins alone, costing 1 and netting 1.09. Of course, not as positive as other 1-pointers have been.
by.hero was one of my dark horses, along with Skyhigh. He didn't pan out unfortunatly, costing 1 and netting .88.
Skyhigh did pan out, a bit I guess, costing 5 and netting 5.47. I think I expected him to net quite a few points this round, but I should have realized that that's very unlikely to happen since CJ has such a deep lineup. Skyhigh isn't going to net that many points unless he gets Jaedong good, because there's so many other good players on CJ to compete with for play slots (Effort, Kwanro, Savior, Iris, Skyhigh, Much, etc. probably forgetting a couple)
Stork I was really worried about early, but he's turned out to be my best investment. Costing 4 and netting 6.42, the reason he stuck out when I made my team is because he was so cheap at 4 points. That said, if he costs 6 or more next round, he'll probably be too expensive to purchase. Similar to Skyhigh, he's got a lot of competition for slots, especially with Jangbi. That's why I was worried early on, when Jangbi was getting sent out more than Stork.
Finally Jaedong. I guess I don't know what to say. He cost a massive 10, and only netted 8.5. Still a lot of points, but he had a series of 3 weeks where he earned 0, 4, and 4 points, which put him behind. Also, there just weren't enough ace matches for Hwaseung, so JD couldn't get the big pionts he needed to cover his cost. Next round, he's likely to cost 8 or 9. Either way, I'm probably gonna pick him again. Unlike CJ and Samsung, Hwaseung doesn't have nearly as deep a lineup, especially with Zerg, so JD is practically guaranteed to play every single match. Also, he's the best player in the world. Good combination.
KTF. They were a steal last round, and appropriately priced this round I'd say. KTF was my way of having Flash on my team without spending 10 points. I think a lot of people underestimated the importance and value of teams. Every team has outscored its cost except Woongjin. Hwaseung broke even. I think, unless the scoring for teams changes next round, it'll be vitally important to invest in a quality team, preferably with a deep lineup, as they're just worth so many points. But I'm guessing the teams will be appropriately priced next round, so that's all moot.
My anti-team:
Iris
Canata
Notice
I tried to choose only players with relatively deep competition on for slots on their teams, and that strategy worked out. Unfortunatly, there was a small backfire in the fact that I underestimated how quickly the "team win" points from teams with "deep lineups" would accumulate.
Iris is on CJ with Skyhigh, so I was really counting on Skyhigh to take the Terran throne for CJ, and he did. As a result, Iris cost 6 and only netted 2.84, with 7 of his 13 points from team wins.
Canata cost 3 and netted 2.63. I never have thought much of Canata, but the fact that he's on SKT really hurt, as he got 8 of his 12 points from team wins alone. Of course, I chose him because he has to compete with Fantasy, Oov, Midas, and Boxer (I wish) for the terran slot on SKT.
Notice has to compete with Hwasin on STX, so I wasn't expecting to see too much of him. Unfortunately, Hwasin went into a mini-slump, and gave Notice a chance to earn. Fortunately, he went 1-3, netting 1.53 compared to his cost of 4.
MEGA BLOG!!!
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ive noticed alot of protosses doing 1base builds recently myself..
goodjob though~
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Be wary, bad protoss send probe and idle it in your nat completely undoing this 
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as a terran player, when I scout 3hatch lurkling as opposed to a spire, I make a factory before my 3rd barracks, and build 2 bunkers at my natural to stop any form of early all-in lurker push. Also, I use 5-6 marines and a medic to walk to the 2-3 spots on any map that a zerg may use to elevator his lurkers and kill the overlord. (this works really well actually).
So basically, if your goal is to 3 hatch lurker me, and contain me until defiler (roughly 13-14minutes) then odds are you will be forced back to your natural WAY before that. The typical TvZ timing push (2 control groups of marines/fb , 5-6 medics, 3 tanks, 1 vessel) comes around the 9 minute mark. This push will force your lurker army all the way back to your natural, unless you decide to attack on the spot and risk losing the game (depending on micro/unit numbers)
Most terrans as soon as they push with their units, will also fly a dropship to your 3rd, hoping to distract you with either his main forces assaulting you so the drop kill the hatchery very easily, or he distracts you with the drop, and when you are looking away and dealing with that, he pushes with his army to your natural.
Basically, 3 hatch lurk ling is a good opening, but if you are thinking about containing them until defiler, then you gotta either be killing his vessels, or his tanks, or both. A good terran however, wont let his tanks die that easily, and probably wont even seige them until he is close to the middle or your natural (tanks outrange lurker without seige, making them super mobile vs lurkling)
also as a sidenote:
it varies quite a bit when a terran player decides to start his +1 attack. Idra prefers getting his factory first, for the faster vessel, but alot of terrans choose +1 first. Using the typical +1attack before factory opening, you are not really left with a big window of +1 carapace before +1 attack comes into play. Not nearly long enough to do any substantial amount of damage (unless you are risking running into dual bunkers and whatever else defense he made
Just my point of view on that.
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bad block the probe gets by anyways, and if he 2 gated not only does the ramp block do nothing, the 2 gate will cause major problems.
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On May 26 2009 07:24 eXigent. wrote:
as a terran player, when I scout 3hatch lurkling as opposed to a spire, I make a factory before my 3rd barracks, and build 2 bunkers at my natural to stop any form of early all-in lurker push. Also, I use 5-6 marines and a medic to walk to the 2-3 spots on any map that a zerg may use to elevator his lurkers and kill the overlord. (this works really well actually).
So basically, if your goal is to 3 hatch lurker me, and contain me until defiler (roughly 13-14minutes) then odds are you will be forced back to your natural WAY before that. The typical TvZ timing push (2 control groups of marines/fb , 5-6 medics, 3 tanks, 1 vessel) comes around the 9 minute mark. This push will force your lurker army all the way back to your natural, unless you decide to attack on the spot and risk losing the game (depending on micro/unit numbers)
Most terrans as soon as they push with their units, will also fly a dropship to your 3rd, hoping to distract you with either his main forces assaulting you so the drop kill the hatchery very easily, or he distracts you with the drop, and when you are looking away and dealing with that, he pushes with his army to your natural.
Basically, 3 hatch lurk ling is a good opening, but if you are thinking about containing them until defiler, then you gotta either be killing his vessels, or his tanks, or both. A good terran however, wont let his tanks die that easily, and probably wont even seige them until he is close to the middle or your natural (tanks outrange lurker without seige, making them super mobile vs lurkling)
also as a sidenote:
it varies quite a bit when a terran player decides to start his +1 attack. Idra prefers getting his factory first, for the faster vessel, but alot of terrans choose +1 first. Using the typical +1attack before factory opening, you are not really left with a big window of +1 carapace before +1 attack comes into play. Not nearly long enough to do any substantial amount of damage (unless you are risking running into dual bunkers and whatever else defense he made
Just my point of view on that.
I checked a couple replays, and my +1 carapace finishes around 7:10. What times do you get for your +1atk? Also, consume finished around 12:30.
Thanks for the input. I guess the map control I was talking about was mainly in that, if the Terran hase a small/medium size mnm force containing me, it's I may be able to get the upper hand against that with my +1carapace lurkerling and thus reduce the strength of his later push. If the Terran doesn't contain me, he's just letting me expand earlier. Once he rolls out with tanks/vessel, it's just the standard burrow-siege-unburrow-run back-burrow game. I guess what you're saying is that, if the terran is good, that game won't delay him much, and I'll be foreed to engage at some point before defilers. That's fine, and that's expected in every ZvT. If the terran didn't force Zerg to fight before defilers, they'd never win.
@newguy: The drone only has to block for a short time, and blocking isn't all that hard. If he manages to micro his way through, it'll occur at about the time I was going to let him through anyway.
If he 2gates and I 12hatch and block ramp, that does cause major problems, but that has nothing to do with blocking my ramp. Also, I think blocking the ramp with overpool or 9pool is a good idea too, as you'll be placing your hatch around the time you morph your lings.
Really, you only need to block the ramp for a few seconds usually. The fact that you blocked your ramp forces him to either cannon first without scouting your pool timing (bad) or check your pool timing asap, which allows you to place your hatch unobstructed.
The more I think about it, the only downside is that blocking the ramp causes you to be mining less minerals for a short time, but having a later nat hatch causes the same problem (later/less larvae, and later access to more mineral patches).
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On May 26 2009 08:03 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 07:24 eXigent. wrote:
as a terran player, when I scout 3hatch lurkling as opposed to a spire, I make a factory before my 3rd barracks, and build 2 bunkers at my natural to stop any form of early all-in lurker push. Also, I use 5-6 marines and a medic to walk to the 2-3 spots on any map that a zerg may use to elevator his lurkers and kill the overlord. (this works really well actually).
So basically, if your goal is to 3 hatch lurker me, and contain me until defiler (roughly 13-14minutes) then odds are you will be forced back to your natural WAY before that. The typical TvZ timing push (2 control groups of marines/fb , 5-6 medics, 3 tanks, 1 vessel) comes around the 9 minute mark. This push will force your lurker army all the way back to your natural, unless you decide to attack on the spot and risk losing the game (depending on micro/unit numbers)
Most terrans as soon as they push with their units, will also fly a dropship to your 3rd, hoping to distract you with either his main forces assaulting you so the drop kill the hatchery very easily, or he distracts you with the drop, and when you are looking away and dealing with that, he pushes with his army to your natural.
Basically, 3 hatch lurk ling is a good opening, but if you are thinking about containing them until defiler, then you gotta either be killing his vessels, or his tanks, or both. A good terran however, wont let his tanks die that easily, and probably wont even seige them until he is close to the middle or your natural (tanks outrange lurker without seige, making them super mobile vs lurkling)
also as a sidenote:
it varies quite a bit when a terran player decides to start his +1 attack. Idra prefers getting his factory first, for the faster vessel, but alot of terrans choose +1 first. Using the typical +1attack before factory opening, you are not really left with a big window of +1 carapace before +1 attack comes into play. Not nearly long enough to do any substantial amount of damage (unless you are risking running into dual bunkers and whatever else defense he made
Just my point of view on that. I checked a couple replays, and my +1 carapace finishes around 7:10. What times do you get for your +1atk? Also, consume finished around 12:30. Thanks for the input. I guess the map control I was talking about was mainly in that, if the Terran hase a small/medium size mnm force containing me, it's I may be able to get the upper hand against that with my +1carapace lurkerling and thus reduce the strength of his later push. If the Terran doesn't contain me, he's just letting me expand earlier. Once he rolls out with tanks/vessel, it's just the standard burrow-siege-unburrow-run back-burrow game. I guess what you're saying is that, if the terran is good, that game won't delay him much, and I'll be foreed to engage at some point before defilers. That's fine, and that's expected in every ZvT. If the terran didn't force Zerg to fight before defilers, they'd never win.
+1 attack for weapons is usually done between 7:45-7:55 on average. So it's pretty close.
I see what you are trying to say. You are expecting a small/medium force of marine/medic outside your choke, hoping to stall your advancing lurkers. However, the 1 thing you might be overlooking is the ability of decent terrans to snipe lurkers as you advance to his natural. I read above that you opt for a few lurkers and alot of zerglings. That might make it easier for a terran player to handle as you advance. As an example.
If I see alot of zerglings, I will add 2 firebats for sure. So basically, you will push out and try to chase me back to my natural. Once you start to push I have 2 choices depending on poisitioning. If you have a lurker too close to the front I will target it with the marines, and let the FB's do damage to the closest lings, and then run back. Or, if you push close, and start to burrow, I will run back a step or 2 and just hold position for alot of free zergling kills. Typically you are sacraficing 1 or the other as you push. So if you are zergling heavy and only have a few lurkers, then you might be in trouble going against a terran who can get alot of easy zergling kills by stimming / running until lurks burrow / killing stray lings.
I think going out with at least 7-8 lurkers would be ideal, but anything less than 5 makes them pretty easy targets.
Now, your 2nd response was that you will do the typical burrow - seige - unburrow - back up - burrow. I find some flaws in that, because most terrans don't seige their tanks when they do the inital 9minute push. There is no real need to seige unless you *have* to. I find it easier to keep the 3-4 tanks unseiged as I initially push, and force you to unburrow and run pretty much to your natural. This is important, because I always try to have a dropship ready (I make it right after the first vessel) so as I push and remove map control (terran has map control at the 9minute mark when he pushes) I also take out your 3rd gas. If its really defended, then the dropship goes to the edge of your main base. I would fake a frontal attack, which makes you focus on my units, and then stim and run in the dropped marines to your mineral line.
basically, what im trying to state here, is that when terran pushes out at 9minutes with his blob, he removes map control from you. At much higher levels of play, where macro is more insane, it would be less of an advantage, but at the D+ levels, it's pretty noticable.
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On May 26 2009 09:12 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 08:03 Dromar wrote:On May 26 2009 07:24 eXigent. wrote:
as a terran player, when I scout 3hatch lurkling as opposed to a spire, I make a factory before my 3rd barracks, and build 2 bunkers at my natural to stop any form of early all-in lurker push. Also, I use 5-6 marines and a medic to walk to the 2-3 spots on any map that a zerg may use to elevator his lurkers and kill the overlord. (this works really well actually).
So basically, if your goal is to 3 hatch lurker me, and contain me until defiler (roughly 13-14minutes) then odds are you will be forced back to your natural WAY before that. The typical TvZ timing push (2 control groups of marines/fb , 5-6 medics, 3 tanks, 1 vessel) comes around the 9 minute mark. This push will force your lurker army all the way back to your natural, unless you decide to attack on the spot and risk losing the game (depending on micro/unit numbers)
Most terrans as soon as they push with their units, will also fly a dropship to your 3rd, hoping to distract you with either his main forces assaulting you so the drop kill the hatchery very easily, or he distracts you with the drop, and when you are looking away and dealing with that, he pushes with his army to your natural.
Basically, 3 hatch lurk ling is a good opening, but if you are thinking about containing them until defiler, then you gotta either be killing his vessels, or his tanks, or both. A good terran however, wont let his tanks die that easily, and probably wont even seige them until he is close to the middle or your natural (tanks outrange lurker without seige, making them super mobile vs lurkling)
also as a sidenote:
it varies quite a bit when a terran player decides to start his +1 attack. Idra prefers getting his factory first, for the faster vessel, but alot of terrans choose +1 first. Using the typical +1attack before factory opening, you are not really left with a big window of +1 carapace before +1 attack comes into play. Not nearly long enough to do any substantial amount of damage (unless you are risking running into dual bunkers and whatever else defense he made
Just my point of view on that. I checked a couple replays, and my +1 carapace finishes around 7:10. What times do you get for your +1atk? Also, consume finished around 12:30. Thanks for the input. I guess the map control I was talking about was mainly in that, if the Terran hase a small/medium size mnm force containing me, it's I may be able to get the upper hand against that with my +1carapace lurkerling and thus reduce the strength of his later push. If the Terran doesn't contain me, he's just letting me expand earlier. Once he rolls out with tanks/vessel, it's just the standard burrow-siege-unburrow-run back-burrow game. I guess what you're saying is that, if the terran is good, that game won't delay him much, and I'll be foreed to engage at some point before defilers. That's fine, and that's expected in every ZvT. If the terran didn't force Zerg to fight before defilers, they'd never win. +1 attack for weapons is usually done between 7:45-7:55 on average. So it's pretty close. I see what you are trying to say. You are expecting a small/medium force of marine/medic outside your choke, hoping to stall your advancing lurkers. However, the 1 thing you might be overlooking is the ability of decent terrans to snipe lurkers as you advance to his natural. I read above that you opt for a few lurkers and alot of zerglings. That might make it easier for a terran player to handle as you advance. As an example. If I see alot of zerglings, I will add 2 firebats for sure. So basically, you will push out and try to chase me back to my natural. Once you start to push I have 2 choices depending on poisitioning. If you have a lurker too close to the front I will target it with the marines, and let the FB's do damage to the closest lings, and then run back. Or, if you push close, and start to burrow, I will run back a step or 2 and just hold position for alot of free zergling kills. Typically you are sacraficing 1 or the other as you push. So if you are zergling heavy and only have a few lurkers, then you might be in trouble going against a terran who can get alot of easy zergling kills by stimming / running until lurks burrow / killing stray lings. I think going out with at least 7-8 lurkers would be ideal, but anything less than 5 makes them pretty easy targets. Now, your 2nd response was that you will do the typical burrow - seige - unburrow - back up - burrow. I find some flaws in that, because most terrans don't seige their tanks when they do the inital 9minute push. There is no real need to seige unless you *have* to. I find it easier to keep the 3-4 tanks unseiged as I initially push, and force you to unburrow and run pretty much to your natural. This is important, because I always try to have a dropship ready (I make it right after the first vessel) so as I push and remove map control (terran has map control at the 9minute mark when he pushes) I also take out your 3rd gas. If its really defended, then the dropship goes to the edge of your main base. I would fake a frontal attack, which makes you focus on my units, and then stim and run in the dropped marines to your mineral line. basically, what im trying to state here, is that when terran pushes out at 9minutes with his blob, he removes map control from you. At much higher levels of play, where macro is more insane, it would be less of an advantage, but at the D+ levels, it's pretty noticable.
Ok I see. So what's your point? It seems like you're saying "If Terran does everything right, he'll steamroll you." Are you saying this doesn't happen if Zerg opens mutas? Because mutas aren't stopping the 9 minute push either. What do you suggest?
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Savior defiler timing has the defiler mound finish at 11:00, that's queen's nest with lurker aspect at 50%, with den after 9 muta, with main gas at 16. If you open lurker first, your defiler should be a lot faster all other things constant.
I prefer 12hatch vs 2gate, I don't like the idea of pumping pure lings off of 1hatch to fight zlots, opening 9pool or overpool feels harder to me vs 2gate.
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On May 26 2009 10:13 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Savior defiler timing has the defiler mound finish at 11:00, that's queen's nest with lurker aspect at 50%, with den after 9 muta, with main gas at 16. If you open lurker first, your defiler should be a lot faster all other things constant.
I prefer 12hatch vs 2gate, I don't like the idea of pumping pure lings off of 1hatch to fight zlots, opening 9pool or overpool feels harder to me vs 2gate.
I guess I never really thought about getting defiler tech faster. I thought I was getting it too fast honestly. Now that I think of it, I could probably get it faster, but the fact is it really can't be too much faster, as my 3rd gas won't have kicked in yet.
and yeah I prefer getting the larva asap against 2gate too, you pretty much need to really. I was just saying I've had trouble defending 2gate with 12hatch in the past. Really it's no better if I open early pool, I just lose later because I can't keep up production.
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On May 26 2009 09:25 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 09:12 eXigent. wrote:On May 26 2009 08:03 Dromar wrote:On May 26 2009 07:24 eXigent. wrote:
as a terran player, when I scout 3hatch lurkling as opposed to a spire, I make a factory before my 3rd barracks, and build 2 bunkers at my natural to stop any form of early all-in lurker push. Also, I use 5-6 marines and a medic to walk to the 2-3 spots on any map that a zerg may use to elevator his lurkers and kill the overlord. (this works really well actually).
So basically, if your goal is to 3 hatch lurker me, and contain me until defiler (roughly 13-14minutes) then odds are you will be forced back to your natural WAY before that. The typical TvZ timing push (2 control groups of marines/fb , 5-6 medics, 3 tanks, 1 vessel) comes around the 9 minute mark. This push will force your lurker army all the way back to your natural, unless you decide to attack on the spot and risk losing the game (depending on micro/unit numbers)
Most terrans as soon as they push with their units, will also fly a dropship to your 3rd, hoping to distract you with either his main forces assaulting you so the drop kill the hatchery very easily, or he distracts you with the drop, and when you are looking away and dealing with that, he pushes with his army to your natural.
Basically, 3 hatch lurk ling is a good opening, but if you are thinking about containing them until defiler, then you gotta either be killing his vessels, or his tanks, or both. A good terran however, wont let his tanks die that easily, and probably wont even seige them until he is close to the middle or your natural (tanks outrange lurker without seige, making them super mobile vs lurkling)
also as a sidenote:
it varies quite a bit when a terran player decides to start his +1 attack. Idra prefers getting his factory first, for the faster vessel, but alot of terrans choose +1 first. Using the typical +1attack before factory opening, you are not really left with a big window of +1 carapace before +1 attack comes into play. Not nearly long enough to do any substantial amount of damage (unless you are risking running into dual bunkers and whatever else defense he made
Just my point of view on that. I checked a couple replays, and my +1 carapace finishes around 7:10. What times do you get for your +1atk? Also, consume finished around 12:30. Thanks for the input. I guess the map control I was talking about was mainly in that, if the Terran hase a small/medium size mnm force containing me, it's I may be able to get the upper hand against that with my +1carapace lurkerling and thus reduce the strength of his later push. If the Terran doesn't contain me, he's just letting me expand earlier. Once he rolls out with tanks/vessel, it's just the standard burrow-siege-unburrow-run back-burrow game. I guess what you're saying is that, if the terran is good, that game won't delay him much, and I'll be foreed to engage at some point before defilers. That's fine, and that's expected in every ZvT. If the terran didn't force Zerg to fight before defilers, they'd never win. +1 attack for weapons is usually done between 7:45-7:55 on average. So it's pretty close. I see what you are trying to say. You are expecting a small/medium force of marine/medic outside your choke, hoping to stall your advancing lurkers. However, the 1 thing you might be overlooking is the ability of decent terrans to snipe lurkers as you advance to his natural. I read above that you opt for a few lurkers and alot of zerglings. That might make it easier for a terran player to handle as you advance. As an example. If I see alot of zerglings, I will add 2 firebats for sure. So basically, you will push out and try to chase me back to my natural. Once you start to push I have 2 choices depending on poisitioning. If you have a lurker too close to the front I will target it with the marines, and let the FB's do damage to the closest lings, and then run back. Or, if you push close, and start to burrow, I will run back a step or 2 and just hold position for alot of free zergling kills. Typically you are sacraficing 1 or the other as you push. So if you are zergling heavy and only have a few lurkers, then you might be in trouble going against a terran who can get alot of easy zergling kills by stimming / running until lurks burrow / killing stray lings. I think going out with at least 7-8 lurkers would be ideal, but anything less than 5 makes them pretty easy targets. Now, your 2nd response was that you will do the typical burrow - seige - unburrow - back up - burrow. I find some flaws in that, because most terrans don't seige their tanks when they do the inital 9minute push. There is no real need to seige unless you *have* to. I find it easier to keep the 3-4 tanks unseiged as I initially push, and force you to unburrow and run pretty much to your natural. This is important, because I always try to have a dropship ready (I make it right after the first vessel) so as I push and remove map control (terran has map control at the 9minute mark when he pushes) I also take out your 3rd gas. If its really defended, then the dropship goes to the edge of your main base. I would fake a frontal attack, which makes you focus on my units, and then stim and run in the dropped marines to your mineral line. basically, what im trying to state here, is that when terran pushes out at 9minutes with his blob, he removes map control from you. At much higher levels of play, where macro is more insane, it would be less of an advantage, but at the D+ levels, it's pretty noticable. Ok I see. So what's your point? It seems like you're saying "If Terran does everything right, he'll steamroll you." Are you saying this doesn't happen if Zerg opens mutas? Because mutas aren't stopping the 9 minute push either. What do you suggest?
Im just contesting your statement about map control. Yes , a muta opening will certainly delay the 9 minute push due to good muta harassment. A lurker build is more of a contain, unless you see a nice time to push. A muta opening harasses his marine count / medic count / tank count / scv count. Mutas also delay tech buildings and force you to turret your main and your natural.
I don't think a lurker build is as great as a muta build (imo), but it's still certainly effective. I just read your post and saw that your facts were a bit off concerning some things. thats all 
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I thought lurkers aren't that good vs mech... Against mech I basically do a ZvP build, mass hydras w/ mutas to pick off tanks. Occasional drops, and tech to ultraling. I get tons of map control, which means more minerals to make more hydras.
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On May 26 2009 10:21 eXigent. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2009 09:25 Dromar wrote:On May 26 2009 09:12 eXigent. wrote:On May 26 2009 08:03 Dromar wrote:On May 26 2009 07:24 eXigent. wrote:
as a terran player, when I scout 3hatch lurkling as opposed to a spire, I make a factory before my 3rd barracks, and build 2 bunkers at my natural to stop any form of early all-in lurker push. Also, I use 5-6 marines and a medic to walk to the 2-3 spots on any map that a zerg may use to elevator his lurkers and kill the overlord. (this works really well actually).
So basically, if your goal is to 3 hatch lurker me, and contain me until defiler (roughly 13-14minutes) then odds are you will be forced back to your natural WAY before that. The typical TvZ timing push (2 control groups of marines/fb , 5-6 medics, 3 tanks, 1 vessel) comes around the 9 minute mark. This push will force your lurker army all the way back to your natural, unless you decide to attack on the spot and risk losing the game (depending on micro/unit numbers)
Most terrans as soon as they push with their units, will also fly a dropship to your 3rd, hoping to distract you with either his main forces assaulting you so the drop kill the hatchery very easily, or he distracts you with the drop, and when you are looking away and dealing with that, he pushes with his army to your natural.
Basically, 3 hatch lurk ling is a good opening, but if you are thinking about containing them until defiler, then you gotta either be killing his vessels, or his tanks, or both. A good terran however, wont let his tanks die that easily, and probably wont even seige them until he is close to the middle or your natural (tanks outrange lurker without seige, making them super mobile vs lurkling)
also as a sidenote:
it varies quite a bit when a terran player decides to start his +1 attack. Idra prefers getting his factory first, for the faster vessel, but alot of terrans choose +1 first. Using the typical +1attack before factory opening, you are not really left with a big window of +1 carapace before +1 attack comes into play. Not nearly long enough to do any substantial amount of damage (unless you are risking running into dual bunkers and whatever else defense he made
Just my point of view on that. I checked a couple replays, and my +1 carapace finishes around 7:10. What times do you get for your +1atk? Also, consume finished around 12:30. Thanks for the input. I guess the map control I was talking about was mainly in that, if the Terran hase a small/medium size mnm force containing me, it's I may be able to get the upper hand against that with my +1carapace lurkerling and thus reduce the strength of his later push. If the Terran doesn't contain me, he's just letting me expand earlier. Once he rolls out with tanks/vessel, it's just the standard burrow-siege-unburrow-run back-burrow game. I guess what you're saying is that, if the terran is good, that game won't delay him much, and I'll be foreed to engage at some point before defilers. That's fine, and that's expected in every ZvT. If the terran didn't force Zerg to fight before defilers, they'd never win. +1 attack for weapons is usually done between 7:45-7:55 on average. So it's pretty close. I see what you are trying to say. You are expecting a small/medium force of marine/medic outside your choke, hoping to stall your advancing lurkers. However, the 1 thing you might be overlooking is the ability of decent terrans to snipe lurkers as you advance to his natural. I read above that you opt for a few lurkers and alot of zerglings. That might make it easier for a terran player to handle as you advance. As an example. If I see alot of zerglings, I will add 2 firebats for sure. So basically, you will push out and try to chase me back to my natural. Once you start to push I have 2 choices depending on poisitioning. If you have a lurker too close to the front I will target it with the marines, and let the FB's do damage to the closest lings, and then run back. Or, if you push close, and start to burrow, I will run back a step or 2 and just hold position for alot of free zergling kills. Typically you are sacraficing 1 or the other as you push. So if you are zergling heavy and only have a few lurkers, then you might be in trouble going against a terran who can get alot of easy zergling kills by stimming / running until lurks burrow / killing stray lings. I think going out with at least 7-8 lurkers would be ideal, but anything less than 5 makes them pretty easy targets. Now, your 2nd response was that you will do the typical burrow - seige - unburrow - back up - burrow. I find some flaws in that, because most terrans don't seige their tanks when they do the inital 9minute push. There is no real need to seige unless you *have* to. I find it easier to keep the 3-4 tanks unseiged as I initially push, and force you to unburrow and run pretty much to your natural. This is important, because I always try to have a dropship ready (I make it right after the first vessel) so as I push and remove map control (terran has map control at the 9minute mark when he pushes) I also take out your 3rd gas. If its really defended, then the dropship goes to the edge of your main base. I would fake a frontal attack, which makes you focus on my units, and then stim and run in the dropped marines to your mineral line. basically, what im trying to state here, is that when terran pushes out at 9minutes with his blob, he removes map control from you. At much higher levels of play, where macro is more insane, it would be less of an advantage, but at the D+ levels, it's pretty noticable. Ok I see. So what's your point? It seems like you're saying "If Terran does everything right, he'll steamroll you." Are you saying this doesn't happen if Zerg opens mutas? Because mutas aren't stopping the 9 minute push either. What do you suggest? Im just contesting your statement about map control. Yes , a muta opening will certainly delay the 9 minute push due to good muta harassment. A lurker build is more of a contain, unless you see a nice time to push. A muta opening harasses his marine count / medic count / tank count / scv count. Mutas also delay tech buildings and force you to turret your main and your natural. I don't think a lurker build is as great as a muta build (imo), but it's still certainly effective. I just read your post and saw that your facts were a bit off concerning some things. thats all
Okay, good thoughts. I wasn't trying to be argumentative if that's how it seemed, I just wasn't sure where you were going with it. From our conversation, I've rethought the merits of lurker vs muta openings, and I agree, mutas are better against better players. My recent success is probably because I've been able to decimate my opponent's contain, usually losing nothing but maybe a dozen lings, and usually I've been able to properly flank and destroy their tank/vessel push, after which I have superior army/econ/tech, and it's pretty much over. If I sustain greater losses breaking their initial contain, it could easily swing the game in the other direction.
I dunno, I just don't like doing 3hatch muta all the time. Seems like every TvZ build ever used is designed with 3hatch muta in mind. But it's the standard build for a reason I guess; it's really good.
What are your thoughts on 2hatch muta?
@dhe95: The lurker build is meant to be used against bio terran. I never use lurkers (or ultras) against mech.
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Defiler at the time I described is quite viable, though you get queen's nest later if you need more lurkers initially (maybe he went 4rax, or your muta sucked, or you didn't go muta and he's moving out really quickly etc). I'd say LATEST viable time to get queen's nest is after starting your 6-8th lurker (with 3hatch muta opening). Since you'll have the lurkers out sooner, honestly you should be able to queen's nest at 50% lurker aspect and have plenty of gas for lurkers at the same time.
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EPT
