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I can think of 2 instances in which a Terran has won a Bo5 vs Protoss (post Flash's dominance in Bacchus/GSI/Intel Classic Season 1). They are as follows:
Fantasy > Bisu @ Batoo OSL
Never_V_ > Kal @ Arena MSL
Yet there are several Protoss victories over Terran that instantly come to mind:
Jangbi > NaDa @ Lost Saga MSL
Stork > Never_V_ @ Lost Saga MSL
Bisu > Skyhigh @ Intel Classic Season 2
Bisu > firebathero @ Clubday MSL
free > NaDa @ Clubday MSL
Stork > Fantasy @ Incruit OSL
I was curious what people attribute this to? (The six dragons phenomenon? Mismatch in skill-level of the players etc.)
As a sidenote... I was wondering why so so so many of the skilled Terran players have significant statistical weaknesses vs. Protoss (BoxeR, Casy, Hwasin, firebathero, UpMagic, Xellos and Never_V_ to an extent.)
Can we trace this to the dominant Protoss players at the time, maps, metagame, Terran players "choking" or what?
Also curious as to where you see TvP going from here, and will Terrans continue to struggle against Protoss in Starleagues? What Terrans/playstyles are fending off Protoss in the pro scene?
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SkyHigh > BeSt just prior to the Bisu > SkyHigh you mentioned
edit: or was that not Bo5?
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Bo3, sKyHigh went 2-1 in that series.
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Most of the protoss wins involve skill mismatches imo. Bisu, Stork, and Jangbi are in the top 6 in Kespa rankings.
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fantasy > bisu?
never had great tvp i just dont know what happened to it after he lost to stork. When did free and nada play each other in a bo5?
Never and stork i wouldnt count too much because its more of like a stork has never's thing.
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IT MUST BE PROTOSS IMBA!!!!!!111!!
no, seriously, I think the maps during Lost Saga MSL (I think, the one Bisu won) seriously favored Protoss
also, the sample size is kinda small, I think with a larger sample size you wouldn't see such lopsidedness. In any case I don't feel like protoss has been super-dominant aside from GOM S2 and Lost Saga MSL, and that was because of the maps imo
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On May 08 2009 12:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
fantasy > bisu?
OSL semis?
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Mismatch in skill-level
this, and sometimes maps too. But for me it seems that the better player always won.
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Yeah, it's just historically most of the Protoss had a killer PvT while the Terrans had not so sightly TvPs. So it's natural that they would lose most of the series.
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Great terrans are judged on their TvZ rather than their TvP. Consider Terrans whose strongest match-up has been TvP and the number of Championships they've won are rather small (Mind, Midas, and Sea all come to mind).
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i would say sea's tvp is his worst mu
and i disagree with your statement i always feel the terrans who had good tvp were the ones who won titles/series. Because the terrans with weak tvp would always meet a decent toss and get knocked out. Boxer lost so many final opportunities because he would always meet a toss on the way. Flash is the only recent terran with titles and he got it facing tosses such as stork and bisu.
Even forgg when he won arena msl his tvp was really strong allowing him to beat kal in a bo5.
Its way more common seeing terrans with bad tvp like hwasin, fbh, and recently forgg. But you rarely see a terran with bad tvz. Even the ones who were considered tvz as their worst mu were decent at it. Mind, Fantasy and flash vs z were their weaknesses yet they always took games off good zergs while you never someone like casy beat a s class toss.
I think right now having a good tvp is more important than tvz.
I think the reason a lot of terrans who lost to protoss lose because they play way too predictable. They just copy each other and use cookie cutter builds. None of them have that unique style that separates them from other terrans. They either play way too turtlely that toss takes the whole map or they play with too much emphasize on harass that they miss the big picture and never reach that critical mass needed.
For example jangbi vs nada. Honestly i thought nada was going to get raped 3-0 but he took it to the 5th game. Nada even though he lost hes very good at series. He almost beated a superior player by playing unpredictable and preparing smart builds. While sea and hwasin literally do the same build and same strat game that they never win series. They get read like an open book. Fantasy is a good example of a terran who imo will make it big. He knows how to win series and take the momentum like july. He takes games off better players like ggplay, bisu, and luxury. Even when he was behind 2-0 vs stork he immediately tied the series to 2-2. Its the reason why skt1 terrans are so successful in series. They arent the ones following the trends but the ones who make trends. Who constactly experiment finding better efficient ways to play.
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On May 08 2009 13:09 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
i would say sea's tvp is his worst mu
and i disagree with your statement i always feel the terrans who had good tvp were the ones who won titles/series. Because the terrans with weak tvp would always meet a decent toss and get knocked out. Boxer lost so many final opportunities because he would always meet a toss on the way. Flash is the only recent terran with titles and he got it facing tosses such as stork and bisu.
Even forgg when he won arena msl his tvp was really strong allowing him to beat kal in a bo5.
Its way more common seeing terrans with bad tvp like hwasin, fbh, and recently forgg. But you rarely see a terran with bad tvz. Even the ones who were considered tvz as their worst mu were decent at it. Mind, Fantasy and flash vs z were their weaknesses yet they always took games off good zergs while you never someone like casy beat a s class toss.
I think right now having a good tvp is more important than tvz.
I think the reason a lot of terrans who lost to protoss lose because they play way too predictable. They just copy each other and use cookie cutter builds. None of them have that unique style that separates them from other terrans. They either play way too turtlely that toss takes the whole map or they play with too much emphasize on harass that they miss the big picture and never reach that critical mass needed.
For example jangbi vs nada. Honestly i thought nada was going to get raped 3-0 but he took it to the 5th game. Nada even though he won hes very good at series. He almost beated a superior player by playing unpredictable and preparing smart builds. While sea and hwasin literally do the same build and same strat game that they never win series. They get read like an open book. Fantasy is a good example of a terran who imo will make it big. He knows how to win series and take the momentum like july. He takes games off better players like ggplay, bisu, and luxury. Even when he was behind 2-0 vs stork he immediately tied the series to 2-2. Its the reason why skt1 terrans are so successful in series. They arent the ones following the trends but the ones who make trends. Who constactly experiment finding better efficient ways to play.
Best post so far. I appreciate the contribution.
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On May 08 2009 12:08 Sunyveil wrote:
IT MUST BE PROTOSS IMBA!!!!!!111!!
no, seriously, I think the maps during Lost Saga MSL (I think, the one Bisu won) seriously favored Protoss
also, the sample size is kinda small, I think with a larger sample size you wouldn't see such lopsidedness. In any case I don't feel like protoss has been super-dominant aside from GOM S2 and Lost Saga MSL, and that was because of the maps imo
this
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It's always been like this. Really good tvzers are dime a dozen, really good tvpers are rare as fuck.
Just as before bisu every single mediocre zerg had great zvp and sucked zvt. (Well they still suck zvt)
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EPT
