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That's pretty fucking tight. However, I fail to see how this would benefit human society.
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United States24700 Posts
From the article:
Wolfgang Wahlster of the German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence, and a chief German government scientific adviser on ICT, thinks that the reductionist strategy of the project is flawed - that it won't see the forest for the trees.
"Imagine you could follow in one of the most advanced Pentium chips today what each and every transistor is doing right now," he told BBC News.
"Then I ask, 'What is happening? Is Word running? Are you doing a Google search?' You couldn't answer. Looking at this level you cannot figure it out.
"This is very interesting research and I'm not criticising it, but it doesn't help us in computer science in having the intelligent behaviour of humans replicated."
This sums up my thoughts better than I could have articulated them.
edit: Try, if their assumptions are right, then this would hugely benefit society! But, I'm skeptical...
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wouldn't a sufficiently accurate simulation capture the emergent properties of the brain?
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On April 23 2009 11:38 Try wrote:
That's pretty fucking tight. However, I fail to see how this would benefit human society.
Have you ever seen any SciFi movies with artificial intelligence?
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On April 23 2009 11:43 ahrara_ wrote:
wouldn't a sufficiently accurate simulation capture the emergent properties of the brain?
not to say it wouldn't, but if the simulation isn't organic then why would it ?
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On April 23 2009 11:44 deathgod6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 11:38 Try wrote:
That's pretty fucking tight. However, I fail to see how this would benefit human society. Have you ever seen any SciFi movies with artificial intelligence?
like The Matrix franchise? Or the Terminator franchise?
+ Show Spoiler +
I, for one, welcome my body heat-harvesting machine overlords
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On April 23 2009 11:50 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 11:43 ahrara_ wrote:
wouldn't a sufficiently accurate simulation capture the emergent properties of the brain? not to say it wouldn't, but if the simulation isn't organic then why would it ?
uh, because you can simulate organic behavior?
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On April 23 2009 11:38 Try wrote:
That's pretty fucking tight. However, I fail to see how this would benefit human society.
i fail to see how you fail to see how this doesn't benefit humanity. fuk society
anyways that crazy if money really is the only issue in creating a brain
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On April 23 2009 11:51 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 11:50 travis wrote:On April 23 2009 11:43 ahrara_ wrote:
wouldn't a sufficiently accurate simulation capture the emergent properties of the brain? not to say it wouldn't, but if the simulation isn't organic then why would it ? uh, because you can simulate organic behavior?
maybe I misinterpreted you.
by "emergent properties", did you mean consciousness or properties of consciousness?
or did you mean something else?
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On April 23 2009 11:38 Try wrote:
That's pretty fucking tight. However, I fail to see how this would benefit human society.
WHAT!?!?!?! Seriously? No offense man , but wtf. This would give us the ability to create HIGHLY intelligent robots(i.e. slaves), and would allow us to create super-human brains eventually that could solve problems for us.Not to mention , give us insight to the question of what a human is and how our brains work.This is just the tip of the iceberg btw. It could go as far as prosthetic brains or even 100% understanding of the universe.
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United States24700 Posts
On April 23 2009 12:02 Bebop Berserker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 11:38 Try wrote:
That's pretty fucking tight. However, I fail to see how this would benefit human society. WHAT!?!?!?! Seriously? No offense man , but wtf. This would give us the ability to create HIGHLY intelligent robots(i.e. slaves), and would allow us to create super-human brains eventually that could solve problems for us.Not to mention , give us insight to the question of what a human is and how our brains work.This is just the tip of the iceberg btw. It could go as far as prosthetic brains or even 100% understanding of the universe.
That aside, the article specifically mentioned some more short-term practical applications such as modeling the effects of drugs on the brain.
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I remember an article about how some dude somehow took part of a rat's brain and grew it (?) and put it inside of an airplane. The brain could control the plane, and it eventually learned how to fly, etc.
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If they were to recreate my brain, molecule by molecule, would the finished product have my memories?
Not sure if anybody knows the answer yet, but just curious.
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On April 23 2009 11:55 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 11:51 ahrara_ wrote:On April 23 2009 11:50 travis wrote:On April 23 2009 11:43 ahrara_ wrote:
wouldn't a sufficiently accurate simulation capture the emergent properties of the brain? not to say it wouldn't, but if the simulation isn't organic then why would it ? uh, because you can simulate organic behavior? maybe I misinterpreted you. by "emergent properties", did you mean consciousness or properties of consciousness? or did you mean something else?
i meant behavior that emerges in the synthesis of a bunch of components, but is not apparent in the individual components. for example, individual brain cells are incapable of higher thought, but when you throw a bunch of them together, they began exhibiting new kinds of behavior as a collective.
i wasn't talking about any existentialist/spiritual stuff.
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I sound stupid but I really don't get the article
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On April 23 2009 12:06 Lemonwalrus wrote:
If they were to recreate my brain, molecule by molecule, would the finished product have my memories?
Not sure if anybody knows the answer yet, but just curious.
as long as whatever properties of those molecules that may impact memory are accurately simulated. i don't see why not, unless you believe that consciousness takes some kind of higher, intangible form. but if you believe that, science is not the field for you.
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On April 23 2009 12:09 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 12:06 Lemonwalrus wrote:
If they were to recreate my brain, molecule by molecule, would the finished product have my memories?
Not sure if anybody knows the answer yet, but just curious. as long as whatever properties of those molecules that may impact memory are accurately simulated. i don't see why not, unless you believe that consciousness takes some kind of higher, intangible form. but if you believe that, science is not the field for you.
If you have ever read any post I have made in a science thread on TL you should know that I don't believe that. 
Edit: I'm a bio major, the question would probably be better worded as "Does the position of the molecules store the data within the brain (i guess kinda like 0's and 1's in computer code) or is it some other system that I am unaware of that they would have a hard time replicating?"
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United States24700 Posts
On April 23 2009 12:11 Lemonwalrus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 12:09 ahrara_ wrote:On April 23 2009 12:06 Lemonwalrus wrote:
If they were to recreate my brain, molecule by molecule, would the finished product have my memories?
Not sure if anybody knows the answer yet, but just curious. as long as whatever properties of those molecules that may impact memory are accurately simulated. i don't see why not, unless you believe that consciousness takes some kind of higher, intangible form. but if you believe that, science is not the field for you. If you have ever read any post I have made in a science thread on TL you should know that I don't believe that.
I think he was speaking more generally/theoretically rather than implying that those were your views specifically.
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Ha, interesting stuff. Lemonwalrus, I don't think anyone knows the answer to your question. In fact, the whole point of doing these kinds of experiments are to try to answer your question.
Anyways, the article makes it seem like the technology is there. Now it's just an ethical issue. Do you really want to create a 'brain', with no sensory organs living in complete darkness? Imagine that, a brain... no eyes, no touch, nothing... just thought and eventual madness no doubt. And how would we even know the brain was conscious it couldn't express itself. Personally, I think consciousness can be mapped, I just think it's a bit more complex than just recreating a brain.
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On April 23 2009 12:06 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 11:55 travis wrote:On April 23 2009 11:51 ahrara_ wrote:On April 23 2009 11:50 travis wrote:On April 23 2009 11:43 ahrara_ wrote:
wouldn't a sufficiently accurate simulation capture the emergent properties of the brain? not to say it wouldn't, but if the simulation isn't organic then why would it ? uh, because you can simulate organic behavior? maybe I misinterpreted you. by "emergent properties", did you mean consciousness or properties of consciousness? or did you mean something else? i meant behavior that emerges in the synthesis of a bunch of components, but is not apparent in the individual components. for example, individual brain cells are incapable of higher thought, but when you throw a bunch of them together, they began exhibiting new kinds of behavior as a collective. i wasn't talking about any existentialist/spiritual stuff.
ah, my bad.
well anyways from what I understand the project is hoping for some sort of consciousness to emerge, eventually.
I still am not even sure I understand the project. The simulation is entirely software based? Like, it's just information?
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United States24700 Posts
I really don't hope for a consciousness. That is a very dark domain. I merely hope for a highly accurate digital model of animal/human bodies for the advancement of science/medicine.
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Anyways, we see this kind of holistic stuff all the time - the sum of the parts are greater than the individual components. You see it in networks, in biological systems, in consciousness. I think it's within our grasp to promote true consciousness arising independently in a system. However, I also think that will probably lead to some epic shit in the future. Maybe I read too much sci -fi 
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On April 23 2009 11:44 deathgod6 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 11:38 Try wrote:
That's pretty fucking tight. However, I fail to see how this would benefit human society. Have you ever seen any SciFi movies with artificial intelligence?
You mean like the Matrix, Battlestar Galactica, Terminator, 2001: A space odyssey... yeah I think I'll stick to natural intelligence.
+ Show Spoiler +I don't really think any of the things in those movies could happen. It will be quite impossible to create an artificial brain for a very very long time if ever.
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I have another question too. The brain isn't solely digital right? It is analog as well?
Are they not worried about that?
well I guess if the program was complex enough to match the molecular structure of an entire brain it could simulate analog signals as well?
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On April 23 2009 12:07 SayaSP wrote:
Make it play starcraft
We already have enough mindless "drones" and macro bots. See what I did there?
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On April 23 2009 12:24 travis wrote:
I have another question too. The brain isn't solely digital right? It is analog as well?
Are they not worried about that?
well I guess if the program was complex enough to match the molecular structure of an entire brain it could simulate analog signals as well?
Yeah, the brain is (i believe) analog, and we would have to find a way to simulate it on our digital computers.
Check out Ray Kurzweil's The Singularity is Near if you're interested in the science of AI
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I would love to see a simulation of an entire human brain...just to throw something else out there for the current mind/body philosophers to eat up and spew out another generation's worth of books and essays. The possibilities that could arise...hmm.
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On April 23 2009 16:17 shmay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2009 12:24 travis wrote:
I have another question too. The brain isn't solely digital right? It is analog as well?
Are they not worried about that?
well I guess if the program was complex enough to match the molecular structure of an entire brain it could simulate analog signals as well? Yeah, the brain is (i believe) analog, and we would have to find a way to simulate it on our digital computers. Check out Ray Kurzweil's The Singularity is Near if you're interested in the science of AI
read it
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EPT
