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So I'm still just practicing builds, and also spending some time in single player practicing and theory-crafting and testing timings for new builds. I'd say I'm finally learning how to play the game.
I finally made D+, which was my goal for the season. For a while I didn't think I was going to make it, since my computer broke a few weeks ago. Fortunately, I got it fixed just in time to get the last points. My goal for next season is C-, which I think I can definitely make if I have enough time to play.
1v1 analysis:
Zerg(22 games)
( 2)ZvZ: 1-1 50.0%
(11)ZvP: 5-6 45.4%
( 9)ZvT: 2-7 22.2%
8-14 36.3%
overall:
Zerg(87 games)
(17)ZvZ: 7-10 41.1%
(37)ZvP: 14-23 37.8%
(34)ZvT: 11-23 32.3%
32-56 36.3%
ZvZ: Having only played 2 ZvZ games, there hasn't really been much progress in this area. One game I played like shit and lost, because the map was suited for more economic builds and I don't know any. The second game, the player was random, and I forgot or something, and thought I was playing ZvT until my overlord scouted his creep. So I opened 12hatch, and almost had placed a 3rd hatchery when I found out I was playing ZvZ. Fortunately he sucked. One thing I've learned about ZvZ is that if both players get lings at approximately the same time, you can get a huge advantage from microing your initial lings better. Simply putting your 6 lings into an arc formation before you engage, slowly snowballs into ling dominance and opponent's dead drones.
So I've been trying to figure out some different build orders for ZvZ, and also writing down the ones I know currently, and getting timings, etc. I'm not finished, but here's what I've got so far:
+ Show Spoiler +
9pool Lair
-9pool
-drone, gas, drone, overlord,
-6 lings, lair,
-ling pumping
-spire, drone,
-make overlord when spire half done, then save larva
::Forgoing ling speed for an extremely fast lair means
you'll be pressuring a bit with your 9pool lings, but
shortly after, playing defense with lings and pressuring
with tech. Best on ramped maps to help defending with
slow lings. Be sure to keep an eye out for his ling
numbers, because you'll have about a dozen. If he gets
like 18 or more, you may want to build a sunk
General Overpool
-overpool, gas
-drone x 3,
-6 lings,
-ling speed,
-lair***,
-lings until 16 supply (12 lings),
-overlord @16 supply, then drone,
-spire, more lings,
-overlord @ spire half done,
-hot muta action,
***IMPORTANT: Do NOT make more lings after the first 6
until you start lair, else you'll have <150mins @100gas.
::This is like the general ZvZ build. You get decent ling
pressure, decently fast tech, and a decent economy. You're
also safe against 4pool and 5pool sunk rush. Can also be
easily adapted to get fast lair instead of ling speed if
certain builds are scouted.
5pool sunk rush
-5pool,
-drone,
-as soon as drone hatches, send him out to scout if on
a 4-player map, otherwise send him to hide and wait
-6lings, rally to base
-drone or 2 lings,
-coordinate sunk placement and timing with the lings
running in, so that he can't surround and kill it
before your lings get there. Also, so that your lings
can hopefully block his natural response of placing
his own sunk.
-overlord, drone-whore, honestly the game is probably
over by now
::Timings::
0:45 pool starts
1:37 pool finishes, 6lings start
2:25 to 2:40 sunk starts and lings arrive
::Basically this beats any 12hatch open,
and may beat 12pool opens depending on distance and
his micro and yours. Loses to everything else though.
This build really depends on surprise, so if you scout
a player with your drone, try not to let him see it.
You could, for example, sneak up with the drone, and
if you see creep, you know he's there without him
knowing you know. Also, make sure to send the lings
on a path where his overlord won't see them if
possible.
4pool sunk rush
-4pool
-drone
-6lings
-scout as soon as lings start
-(drone or 2 lings)x2
-overlord, drone-whore, honestly the game is probably
over by now
::Timings::
0:39 pool starts
1:29 pool finishes, six lings start, scout
1:45 lings hatch
2:20 to 2:35 sunk starts, lings arrive
12hatch@main
-9overlord,
-12hatch@main,
-11pool,
-10gas,
-drone x4,
-creep colony when pool 75% done (3rd drone hatches).
-(sunk, 2 lings, lair) OR (4 lings, lair), depending
how aggressive opponent was
-whore out 3 more drones if safe, and the rest lings
until 18/18 supply, so you should have 6lings and
sunk to defend with for a bit
-at 18/18, overlord, then ling speed.
-when overlord finishes, DON'T spam lings, get ready
to make spire, then spam lings
-overlord @23/26, then lings until 26
-save larva/min/gas for 4 mutas and another overlord
as soon as spire finishes
::Timings::
1:42 hatch start
2:00 pool start
2:05 extractor start
2:35 extractor finish
2:53 pool finish
3:00 hatch finish AND lair start
4:04 lair finish AND spire start
4:40 ling speed finish
5:20 spire finish - 4 mutas
::Honestly I'm not sure if this build is any good,
but basically what it does is this: it risks an
econo-whore opening, in exchange for the ability to
mass ling AND get a really fast lair at good timing.
Also the econo-whore opening is a "safish" one, with
preplanned sunk. Still, on small maps I think this
build gets owned, and on bigger maps I think there
are probably better builds.
ZvP: I've pretty much been doing 3hatch muta into 5hatch hydra, and it's been working pretty well so far. Though I do occasionally get the urge to just upgrade ling speed and do a mass ling attack occasionally. Unfortunately, it always fails miserably, probably because my timing is terrible because I just decided to do it arbitrarily. As long as I don't do that though, I'm doing okay. Just getting better at dealing with Protoss.
ZvT: So I got owned in ZvT, mostly because I was trying out a new build idea, and I played several rematches with the same player who only did 1base strats that totally owned me. I think I need to go back to 3hatch muta for a while, then maybe I'll try something else again. I'm becoming more interested in 2hatch builds lately. Also, I need to learn to beat mech, but I don't play against it often enough to actually get better against it.
Questions:
ZvZ:
1. Any comments/suggestions regarding the spoilered ZvZ build list above?
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
ZvT:
1. Is 2hatch muta a strong counter to mech builds?
2. Should I be building early den and hydras to deal with vulture harass, or should I be trying to block the vulture(s) and make them die to a sunk?
As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome.
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ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.
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On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.
says the protoss rofl.
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On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.
I understand your point, but I think it's something I need to know how to do.
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On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all. says the protoss rofl.
That is all an all-in build is at lower levels... I play at a C+ B- level
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On March 02 2009 16:57 Dromar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all. I understand your point, but I think it's something I need to know how to do.
Learn it later, it is viable but if you get accustomed to using it what does it accomplish past the early game?
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On March 02 2009 16:58 Aurious wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all. says the protoss rofl. That is all an all-in build is at lower levels... I play at a C+ B- level
Gosu level
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On March 02 2009 16:58 Aurious wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 16:57 Dromar wrote:On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all. I understand your point, but I think it's something I need to know how to do. Learn it later, it is viable but if you get accustomed to using it what does it accomplish past the early game?
Well I believe the idea is to punish a protoss who plays too greedily and skimps on defense in order to econo-whore and faster tech. Of course I'm not sure...
But you do have a valid point. At D+ I could just force myself to micro/macro/multitask better.
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you can play vs mech builds fine with a 3 hatch build. make sure to get your hydra den while your spire is building though for the wraiths. your spire wont pop in time to defend them. but vs vultures you can place some sunkens at your nat and get lings to clog up your ramp so they cant run up your ramp and are stuck at your natural getting hit by the sunkens.
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On March 02 2009 17:01 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 16:58 Aurious wrote:On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all. says the protoss rofl. That is all an all-in build is at lower levels... I play at a C+ B- level Gosu level
Never said it was amazing, just when learning at those levels it's easier to become better training mid-late game management and it will lead to a better build understanding.
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Yeah dont be learning all in builds if you're trying to get better. Just do solid macro builds.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
You don't need to learn 3 hatch all in lings. 3 hatch all in lings is weak against protoss players who know how to wall in properly. You could survive 3 hatch all in lings with 2 cannons 2 zeolots and probes.
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On March 02 2009 17:59 T.O.P. wrote:
You don't need to learn 3 hatch all in lings. 3 hatch all in lings is weak against protoss players who know how to wall in properly. You could survive 3 hatch all in lings with 2 cannons 2 zeolots and probes.
exactly i do 3 hatch mass ling only again players who make horible walls if you do 3 hatch allin vs good wall is basicly useless. anyway it can work vs good walls to if toss is not expecting them and not placing zeals properly
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On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all. says the protoss rofl.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88725
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On March 02 2009 21:27 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?
Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all. says the protoss rofl. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88725
incredibly irrelevant, that thread is about live reports and this is in the BLOGS section. what do you expect?
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hmm i hit the c- rank by end of season.
i was terran...best matchup tvp and tvz lol but never played tvt!
but korean times are REALLY hard to play..i kept losing-_- and i always win in american time >_<
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3 hatch allin lings:
9 pool speed
Camp any and all scouting probes with 6-8 speed lings
2nd hatch @ expo after 6-8 lings
Keep pumping non stop lings while making an additional hatchery when you have the money
Hide the extra lings away from the probable scouting path
Dont pump lings if you see he has placed a 3rd cannon, transition to a different build, use your 6-8 lings to limit his scouting and to your advantage.
@ about 22-26 supply, move in - you should be up against 2 cannons and 2 zealots. If you hid your lings well, he should be slow @ pulling probes. It is more important to surround cannons at first.
Succeeding is entirely based upon his placement, if he pulls probes fast enough, and if you get reinforcements there fast enough.
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I'd honestly advise against using builds like 3 hatch all-ins or any 4/5 pool builds. Yeah, they can get you some cheap wins, but you don't really learn or gain anything in the long run. That's only if you're trying to improve of course, otherwise, if you just want to have fun, and enjoy winning, by all means.
I'm a D+ Zerg if you want to ZvZ sometime. Conquest101 on ICC, or I'm usually in the IRC channel in the evenings.
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@yenta: thanx for the build, but now that I see it's got such a shitty economy even at the begginning (9pool speed is about as bad as it gets economically), I don't think that's going to be a build I'll be doing. ZvP I open either 12hatch or 9pool into 3hatch (no gas until after 3rd hatch down).
@conquest101: I wouldn't mind practicing my ZvZ; I'll keep that in mind. What builds do you generally use in ZvZ?
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I overpool like 80% of my games. Depending on what I feel like doing (and whether I scout them first try with overlord), I sometimes speed first, sometimes lair first. On some maps, I'll 12 hatch though.
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EPT
