• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 10:45
CET 16:45
KST 00:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview1RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4) BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced
Tourneys
Tenacious Turtle Tussle 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament StarCraft2.fi 15th Anniversary Cup RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night
Brood War
General
[BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Let's talk about Metropolis Foreign Brood War
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Group D - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
How Sleep Deprivation Affect…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 904 users

ICCup report 7

Blogs > Dromar
Post a Reply
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
March 02 2009 07:35 GMT
#1
So I'm still just practicing builds, and also spending some time in single player practicing and theory-crafting and testing timings for new builds. I'd say I'm finally learning how to play the game.

I finally made D+, which was my goal for the season. For a while I didn't think I was going to make it, since my computer broke a few weeks ago. Fortunately, I got it fixed just in time to get the last points. My goal for next season is C-, which I think I can definitely make if I have enough time to play.

1v1 analysis:

Zerg(22 games)
( 2)ZvZ: 1-1 50.0%
(11)ZvP: 5-6 45.4%
( 9)ZvT: 2-7 22.2%

8-14 36.3%

overall:
Zerg(87 games)
(17)ZvZ: 7-10 41.1%
(37)ZvP: 14-23 37.8%
(34)ZvT: 11-23 32.3%

32-56 36.3%

ZvZ: Having only played 2 ZvZ games, there hasn't really been much progress in this area. One game I played like shit and lost, because the map was suited for more economic builds and I don't know any. The second game, the player was random, and I forgot or something, and thought I was playing ZvT until my overlord scouted his creep. So I opened 12hatch, and almost had placed a 3rd hatchery when I found out I was playing ZvZ. Fortunately he sucked. One thing I've learned about ZvZ is that if both players get lings at approximately the same time, you can get a huge advantage from microing your initial lings better. Simply putting your 6 lings into an arc formation before you engage, slowly snowballs into ling dominance and opponent's dead drones.
So I've been trying to figure out some different build orders for ZvZ, and also writing down the ones I know currently, and getting timings, etc. I'm not finished, but here's what I've got so far:

+ Show Spoiler +

9pool Lair

-9pool
-drone, gas, drone, overlord,
-6 lings, lair,
-ling pumping
-spire, drone,
-make overlord when spire half done, then save larva

::Forgoing ling speed for an extremely fast lair means
you'll be pressuring a bit with your 9pool lings, but
shortly after, playing defense with lings and pressuring
with tech. Best on ramped maps to help defending with
slow lings. Be sure to keep an eye out for his ling
numbers, because you'll have about a dozen. If he gets
like 18 or more, you may want to build a sunk

General Overpool

-overpool, gas
-drone x 3,
-6 lings,
-ling speed,
-lair***,
-lings until 16 supply (12 lings),
-overlord @16 supply, then drone,
-spire, more lings,
-overlord @ spire half done,
-hot muta action,

***IMPORTANT: Do NOT make more lings after the first 6
until you start lair, else you'll have <150mins @100gas.

::This is like the general ZvZ build. You get decent ling
pressure, decently fast tech, and a decent economy. You're
also safe against 4pool and 5pool sunk rush. Can also be
easily adapted to get fast lair instead of ling speed if
certain builds are scouted.

5pool sunk rush

-5pool,
-drone,
-as soon as drone hatches, send him out to scout if on
a 4-player map, otherwise send him to hide and wait
-6lings, rally to base
-drone or 2 lings,
-coordinate sunk placement and timing with the lings
running in, so that he can't surround and kill it
before your lings get there. Also, so that your lings
can hopefully block his natural response of placing
his own sunk.
-overlord, drone-whore, honestly the game is probably
over by now


::Timings::
0:45 pool starts
1:37 pool finishes, 6lings start
2:25 to 2:40 sunk starts and lings arrive

::Basically this beats any 12hatch open,
and may beat 12pool opens depending on distance and
his micro and yours. Loses to everything else though.
This build really depends on surprise, so if you scout
a player with your drone, try not to let him see it.
You could, for example, sneak up with the drone, and
if you see creep, you know he's there without him
knowing you know. Also, make sure to send the lings
on a path where his overlord won't see them if
possible.

4pool sunk rush

-4pool
-drone
-6lings
-scout as soon as lings start
-(drone or 2 lings)x2
-overlord, drone-whore, honestly the game is probably
over by now

::Timings::
0:39 pool starts
1:29 pool finishes, six lings start, scout
1:45 lings hatch
2:20 to 2:35 sunk starts, lings arrive

12hatch@main

-9overlord,
-12hatch@main,
-11pool,
-10gas,
-drone x4,
-creep colony when pool 75% done (3rd drone hatches).
-(sunk, 2 lings, lair) OR (4 lings, lair), depending
how aggressive opponent was
-whore out 3 more drones if safe, and the rest lings
until 18/18 supply, so you should have 6lings and
sunk to defend with for a bit
-at 18/18, overlord, then ling speed.
-when overlord finishes, DON'T spam lings, get ready
to make spire, then spam lings
-overlord @23/26, then lings until 26
-save larva/min/gas for 4 mutas and another overlord
as soon as spire finishes

::Timings::
1:42 hatch start
2:00 pool start
2:05 extractor start
2:35 extractor finish
2:53 pool finish
3:00 hatch finish AND lair start
4:04 lair finish AND spire start
4:40 ling speed finish
5:20 spire finish - 4 mutas

::Honestly I'm not sure if this build is any good,
but basically what it does is this: it risks an
econo-whore opening, in exchange for the ability to
mass ling AND get a really fast lair at good timing.
Also the econo-whore opening is a "safish" one, with
preplanned sunk. Still, on small maps I think this
build gets owned, and on bigger maps I think there
are probably better builds.


ZvP: I've pretty much been doing 3hatch muta into 5hatch hydra, and it's been working pretty well so far. Though I do occasionally get the urge to just upgrade ling speed and do a mass ling attack occasionally. Unfortunately, it always fails miserably, probably because my timing is terrible because I just decided to do it arbitrarily. As long as I don't do that though, I'm doing okay. Just getting better at dealing with Protoss.

ZvT: So I got owned in ZvT, mostly because I was trying out a new build idea, and I played several rematches with the same player who only did 1base strats that totally owned me. I think I need to go back to 3hatch muta for a while, then maybe I'll try something else again. I'm becoming more interested in 2hatch builds lately. Also, I need to learn to beat mech, but I don't play against it often enough to actually get better against it.


Questions:

ZvZ:
1. Any comments/suggestions regarding the spoilered ZvZ build list above?

ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

ZvT:
1. Is 2hatch muta a strong counter to mech builds?
2. Should I be building early den and hydras to deal with vulture harass, or should I be trying to block the vulture(s) and make them die to a sunk?


As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome.

Aurious
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Canada1772 Posts
March 02 2009 07:46 GMT
#2
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.
Creationism
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
China505 Posts
March 02 2009 07:49 GMT
#3
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.


says the protoss rofl.
The hoi polloi is the plague upon the world.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
March 02 2009 07:57 GMT
#4
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.



I understand your point, but I think it's something I need to know how to do.
Aurious
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Canada1772 Posts
March 02 2009 07:58 GMT
#5
On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.


says the protoss rofl.


That is all an all-in build is at lower levels... I play at a C+ B- level
Aurious
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Canada1772 Posts
March 02 2009 07:58 GMT
#6
On March 02 2009 16:57 Dromar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.



I understand your point, but I think it's something I need to know how to do.


Learn it later, it is viable but if you get accustomed to using it what does it accomplish past the early game?
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
March 02 2009 08:01 GMT
#7
On March 02 2009 16:58 Aurious wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.


says the protoss rofl.


That is all an all-in build is at lower levels... I play at a C+ B- level


Gosu level
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
March 02 2009 08:02 GMT
#8
On March 02 2009 16:58 Aurious wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2009 16:57 Dromar wrote:
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.



I understand your point, but I think it's something I need to know how to do.


Learn it later, it is viable but if you get accustomed to using it what does it accomplish past the early game?


Well I believe the idea is to punish a protoss who plays too greedily and skimps on defense in order to econo-whore and faster tech. Of course I'm not sure...

But you do have a valid point. At D+ I could just force myself to micro/macro/multitask better.
YoUr_KiLLeR
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United States3420 Posts
March 02 2009 08:15 GMT
#9
you can play vs mech builds fine with a 3 hatch build. make sure to get your hydra den while your spire is building though for the wraiths. your spire wont pop in time to defend them. but vs vultures you can place some sunkens at your nat and get lings to clog up your ramp so they cant run up your ramp and are stuck at your natural getting hit by the sunkens.
what the fuck do you have to say for yourself now you protoss jackass can you retaliate in any way
Aurious
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Canada1772 Posts
March 02 2009 08:27 GMT
#10
On March 02 2009 17:01 Zoler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2009 16:58 Aurious wrote:
On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.


says the protoss rofl.


That is all an all-in build is at lower levels... I play at a C+ B- level


Gosu level


Never said it was amazing, just when learning at those levels it's easier to become better training mid-late game management and it will lead to a better build understanding.
Divinek
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada4045 Posts
March 02 2009 08:43 GMT
#11
Yeah dont be learning all in builds if you're trying to get better. Just do solid macro builds.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Oh goodness me, FOX tv where do you get your sight? Can't you keep track, the puck is black. That's why the ice is white.
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
March 02 2009 08:59 GMT
#12
You don't need to learn 3 hatch all in lings. 3 hatch all in lings is weak against protoss players who know how to wall in properly. You could survive 3 hatch all in lings with 2 cannons 2 zeolots and probes.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
SkelA
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Macedonia13069 Posts
March 02 2009 09:51 GMT
#13
On March 02 2009 17:59 T.O.P. wrote:
You don't need to learn 3 hatch all in lings. 3 hatch all in lings is weak against protoss players who know how to wall in properly. You could survive 3 hatch all in lings with 2 cannons 2 zeolots and probes.


exactly i do 3 hatch mass ling only again players who make horible walls if you do 3 hatch allin vs good wall is basicly useless. anyway it can work vs good walls to if toss is not expecting them and not placing zeals properly
Stork and KHAN fan till 2012 ...
[DUF]MethodMan
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Germany1716 Posts
March 02 2009 12:27 GMT
#14
On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.


says the protoss rofl.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88725
Sanity.
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States704 Posts
March 02 2009 13:51 GMT
#15
On March 02 2009 21:27 [DUF]MethodMan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 02 2009 16:49 Creationism wrote:
On March 02 2009 16:46 Aurious wrote:
ZvP:
1. How do you do a 3hatch ling all-in? What are the timings, what makes it work, and what makes it fail?

Don't do it, if it fails you lose because you will be super behind and it's a cheap win. No way at getting better at all.


says the protoss rofl.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88725

incredibly irrelevant, that thread is about live reports and this is in the BLOGS section. what do you expect?
Lurker
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
57 Posts
March 02 2009 13:55 GMT
#16
hmm i hit the c- rank by end of season.
i was terran...best matchup tvp and tvz lol but never played tvt!
but korean times are REALLY hard to play..i kept losing-_- and i always win in american time >_<
yenta
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Poland1142 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-03-02 14:56:53
March 02 2009 14:52 GMT
#17
3 hatch allin lings:

9 pool speed
Camp any and all scouting probes with 6-8 speed lings
2nd hatch @ expo after 6-8 lings
Keep pumping non stop lings while making an additional hatchery when you have the money
Hide the extra lings away from the probable scouting path

Dont pump lings if you see he has placed a 3rd cannon, transition to a different build, use your 6-8 lings to limit his scouting and to your advantage.

@ about 22-26 supply, move in - you should be up against 2 cannons and 2 zealots. If you hid your lings well, he should be slow @ pulling probes. It is more important to surround cannons at first.

Succeeding is entirely based upon his placement, if he pulls probes fast enough, and if you get reinforcements there fast enough.
Trutacz Practice Discord - https://discord.gg/PWF7Pv
Conquest101
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1395 Posts
March 02 2009 15:27 GMT
#18
I'd honestly advise against using builds like 3 hatch all-ins or any 4/5 pool builds. Yeah, they can get you some cheap wins, but you don't really learn or gain anything in the long run. That's only if you're trying to improve of course, otherwise, if you just want to have fun, and enjoy winning, by all means.

I'm a D+ Zerg if you want to ZvZ sometime. Conquest101 on ICC, or I'm usually in the IRC channel in the evenings.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
March 02 2009 17:59 GMT
#19
@yenta: thanx for the build, but now that I see it's got such a shitty economy even at the begginning (9pool speed is about as bad as it gets economically), I don't think that's going to be a build I'll be doing. ZvP I open either 12hatch or 9pool into 3hatch (no gas until after 3rd hatch down).

@conquest101: I wouldn't mind practicing my ZvZ; I'll keep that in mind. What builds do you generally use in ZvZ?
Conquest101
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1395 Posts
March 03 2009 02:58 GMT
#20
I overpool like 80% of my games. Depending on what I feel like doing (and whether I scout them first try with overlord), I sometimes speed first, sometimes lair first. On some maps, I'll 12 hatch though.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 15m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko432
Harstem 360
Fuzer 206
Dewaltoss 68
SKillous 18
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 24871
Sea 4122
Calm 3870
Mini 1204
Larva 1018
Jaedong 958
EffOrt 635
Soma 487
Light 467
Snow 391
[ Show more ]
hero 334
firebathero 311
Sharp 240
BeSt 216
actioN 201
Rush 149
Aegong 39
Bale 38
Mong 36
Mind 36
Terrorterran 34
scan(afreeca) 25
sorry 24
soO 16
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
HiyA 9
Dota 2
Gorgc6334
qojqva2610
syndereN385
XcaliburYe131
Counter-Strike
fl0m1258
zeus181
Other Games
FrodaN3431
hiko527
crisheroes366
Liquid`VortiX221
KnowMe131
QueenE62
Trikslyr38
nookyyy 32
ToD23
Beastyqt0
Organizations
Other Games
WardiTV725
BasetradeTV16
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• poizon28 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Noizen35
League of Legends
• Jankos3649
• TFBlade1044
Other Games
• Scarra1162
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
1h 15m
RSL Revival
12h 45m
StarCraft2.fi
18h 15m
IPSL
1d 1h
Sziky vs JDConan
OSC
1d 1h
Solar vs Percival
Gerald vs Nicoract
Creator vs ByuN
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Classic vs TBD
herO vs Zoun
WardiTV 2025
1d 21h
herO vs ShoWTimE
SHIN vs herO
Clem vs herO
SHIN vs Clem
SHIN vs ShoWTimE
Clem vs ShoWTimE
IPSL
2 days
Tarson vs DragOn
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
The PondCast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Revival: Season 3
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.