• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 10:15
CET 16:15
KST 00:15
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational5SC2 All-Star Invitational: Tournament Preview5RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0BSL Season 2025 - Full Overview and Conclusion8Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets4$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)16Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7
StarCraft 2
General
PhD study /w SC2 - help with a survey! herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational SC2 Spotted on the EWC 2026 list? Starcraft 2 will not be in the Esports World Cup When will we find out if there are more tournament
Tourneys
OSC Season 13 World Championship $70 Prize Pool Ladder Legends Academy Weekly Open! SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC2 AI Tournament 2026
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 509 Doomsday Report Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BW AKA finder tool [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Gypsy to Korea BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 Small VOD Thread 2.0 Azhi's Colosseum - Season 2
Strategy
Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Awesome Games Done Quick 2026!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Navigating the Risks and Rew…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1607 users

Random musing about TvZ

Blogs > Caller
Post a Reply
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 16:58 GMT
#1
I've always wondered why Terrans don't keep a half squad or so of mnm off to the side away from their ball. Because lurkers are hideously vulnerable to being flanked by mnm, especially when their ling support is gone. So recently I've tried to keep a squad or so of mnm away from the rest of my ball, at the very least to force zerg to waste time to burrow and try to kill them off while I set up my main force into a better reception for a welcoming committee. I find that my optimal size for an mnm group is 12 marine + 4 medic, which can do absolutely ludicrous amounts of damage to a zerg force, especially because mnm is so mobile and can run away (until ultras). Not to mention that you can also use them to stop expo attempts and defend ramps from lurkers being burrowed on top indefinitely, snipe overlords, cut off zerg defiler reinforcements, etc.

I would show screenshots but my scx appears to be broken T_T

Note: this will not work well at all against ultralisks.

**
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
February 06 2009 17:05 GMT
#2
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 17:13 GMT
#3
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
February 06 2009 17:27 GMT
#4
because it's hard to flank a flank?
seriously i think it could a good idea though
Artosis *
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States2140 Posts
February 06 2009 17:30 GMT
#5
theres no situation this would be good for in a standard high level tvz.

if you have a group off to one side, they only need to attack this group instead of your main group, and it will die so fast u will wonder why in the hell you didn't have it with ur army. also theres lots of pressuring back and forth with marine medic vs lurker armies, and it would be impossible to keep the other group in a good location relative to where everything else is.

in addition to this, if you go for a marine medic style play vs zerg, you are not on the defense. you are attacking. they will meet you at expansions or when you get out of position.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/Artosis
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 17:51 GMT
#6
On February 07 2009 02:30 Artosis wrote:
theres no situation this would be good for in a standard high level tvz.

if you have a group off to one side, they only need to attack this group instead of your main group, and it will die so fast u will wonder why in the hell you didn't have it with ur army. also theres lots of pressuring back and forth with marine medic vs lurker armies, and it would be impossible to keep the other group in a good location relative to where everything else is.

in addition to this, if you go for a marine medic style play vs zerg, you are not on the defense. you are attacking. they will meet you at expansions or when you get out of position.


The terran ball itself is not very mobile, as tanks are pretty slow and marines have to be at he same speed in order to avoid splitting up the ball. A group of mnm is fast and can run away pretty easily. If they do chase the small group, then your main ball can go ahead and attack without fear of an army flanking them as you now know the position of an enemy force (chasing your small ball). A group of well managed mnm (12 marine 4 medic) can shred most small-medium zerg groups with impunity, so it would have to be quite a large force chasing the marines. If they give up chasing and head to flank your ball, you know exactly where they're coming from and now the small group can go flank the flankers.

Take everybody's standard map, Python, for example. If you are pressuring a base, the middle of a map would be a good place for the group to hide. If they are attacked, they can run pretty much everywhere. It is also hard to flank them, as they are in the middle and it would require quite a commitment to flank this force. So while your ball is attacking, rather than saving up for a new ball you grab the next two production cycles of marines and tell them to keep slightly behind the ball from expected avenues of flanking. On a map like blue storm, a good place for this group would be that staircase above/below the raised platform, depending on where you are. That way, if your force gets attacked, that group can rush in and flank an enemy group, splitting the lurker fire and basically raping the enemy force. i.e.
flankers
enemy ball enemy flankers

Even if you lose the flanking group, a head on fight between zerg and terran midgame armies almost always results in a terran victory.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-06 20:54:15
February 06 2009 20:52 GMT
#7
This can work as long as youre 100% sure theyre only going to face the flank and not the main army (so spliiting them is a split second decision when the zergs attack is about to hit you), however, keeping your main army a bit spread is enough, having a big distance between groups will make them really vulnerable, maybe will fuck up with what a newbies expectations but any other will just see that group as a gift.

This "they can run everywhere" argument only happens against zergs with shitty micro or a bad unit composition, especially when facing much bigger armies.

A group of unhotkeyed mnm will not shred through anything special against a hotkeyed zerg army.

Not to mention, now you have 1 more place to pay attention to, that makes you more vulnerable to spells.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
February 07 2009 02:20 GMT
#8
On February 07 2009 02:13 Caller wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.


I somehow took your "split a small force off from ball" as splitting your entire army up into small groups. If you do that then you'd probably want a vessel with each group and you'd be more likely to lose them.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 07 2009 04:10 GMT
#9
On February 07 2009 11:20 Durak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2009 02:13 Caller wrote:
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.


I somehow took your "split a small force off from ball" as splitting your entire army up into small groups. If you do that then you'd probably want a vessel with each group and you'd be more likely to lose them.

you don't need a vessel with each group. It's not a seperate task force, its just there as a defensive precaution.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 07 2009 12:04 GMT
#10
people don't do this because zerg is dangerous

you can't claim too much real estate with your army or you will meet savage resistance

marines are much stronger when theyre all together, that's why people run from lurkers or spread during an attack. having a little group off to the side is practically asking to lose one of those two groups to a skilled zerg player

of course, you're not always going to lose them. sometimes it'll work out nicely, but the threat to your survival is very real so people tend to do what's safer out in the field
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
11:00
Season 13 World Championship
Krystianer vs CureLIVE!
ShoWTimE vs TBD
WardiTV1200
TKL 279
IndyStarCraft 270
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 270
TKL 267
Harstem 99
ProTech95
SC2Nice 25
JuggernautJason5
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 3588
Horang2 916
Mini 746
EffOrt 458
Snow 325
actioN 202
BeSt 172
Mong 157
Hyun 129
hero 103
[ Show more ]
Sexy 92
Mind 51
JYJ 50
Barracks 38
Killer 37
Hm[arnc] 31
Dewaltoss 27
Terrorterran 26
ToSsGirL 25
SilentControl 17
Sacsri 16
ajuk12(nOOB) 15
Rock 14
JulyZerg 12
GoRush 10
Dota 2
qojqva1943
Dendi493
420jenkins185
syndereN166
Counter-Strike
fl0m7906
olofmeister3728
byalli1226
x6flipin773
Other Games
singsing2103
B2W.Neo1372
hiko613
Hui .328
allub226
crisheroes221
RotterdaM178
Fuzer 152
Sick151
ArmadaUGS83
Mew2King71
Rex32
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 46
• naamasc223
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Laughngamez YouTube
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV166
League of Legends
• TFBlade834
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
2 days
Serral vs TBD
BSL 21
2 days
BSL 21
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-20
SC2 All-Star Inv. 2025
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W5
Acropolis #4 - TS4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.