• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:53
CEST 19:53
KST 02:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?50Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)8Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!40Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over SC4ALL: II Winner Will Earn a Spot at HSC 30! Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) September World Ranking: herO leads, Serral climbs
Tourneys
IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly SC2 INu's Battles#20 [BO.9] 2026 GSTL Announcement Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome
Brood War
General
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 Brood War in Budapest ! WORTEX 2026 BW Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 3564 users

Random musing about TvZ

Blogs > Caller
Post a Reply
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 16:58 GMT
#1
I've always wondered why Terrans don't keep a half squad or so of mnm off to the side away from their ball. Because lurkers are hideously vulnerable to being flanked by mnm, especially when their ling support is gone. So recently I've tried to keep a squad or so of mnm away from the rest of my ball, at the very least to force zerg to waste time to burrow and try to kill them off while I set up my main force into a better reception for a welcoming committee. I find that my optimal size for an mnm group is 12 marine + 4 medic, which can do absolutely ludicrous amounts of damage to a zerg force, especially because mnm is so mobile and can run away (until ultras). Not to mention that you can also use them to stop expo attempts and defend ramps from lurkers being burrowed on top indefinitely, snipe overlords, cut off zerg defiler reinforcements, etc.

I would show screenshots but my scx appears to be broken T_T

Note: this will not work well at all against ultralisks.

**
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
February 06 2009 17:05 GMT
#2
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 17:13 GMT
#3
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
February 06 2009 17:27 GMT
#4
because it's hard to flank a flank?
seriously i think it could a good idea though
Artosis *
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States2140 Posts
February 06 2009 17:30 GMT
#5
theres no situation this would be good for in a standard high level tvz.

if you have a group off to one side, they only need to attack this group instead of your main group, and it will die so fast u will wonder why in the hell you didn't have it with ur army. also theres lots of pressuring back and forth with marine medic vs lurker armies, and it would be impossible to keep the other group in a good location relative to where everything else is.

in addition to this, if you go for a marine medic style play vs zerg, you are not on the defense. you are attacking. they will meet you at expansions or when you get out of position.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/Artosis
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 17:51 GMT
#6
On February 07 2009 02:30 Artosis wrote:
theres no situation this would be good for in a standard high level tvz.

if you have a group off to one side, they only need to attack this group instead of your main group, and it will die so fast u will wonder why in the hell you didn't have it with ur army. also theres lots of pressuring back and forth with marine medic vs lurker armies, and it would be impossible to keep the other group in a good location relative to where everything else is.

in addition to this, if you go for a marine medic style play vs zerg, you are not on the defense. you are attacking. they will meet you at expansions or when you get out of position.


The terran ball itself is not very mobile, as tanks are pretty slow and marines have to be at he same speed in order to avoid splitting up the ball. A group of mnm is fast and can run away pretty easily. If they do chase the small group, then your main ball can go ahead and attack without fear of an army flanking them as you now know the position of an enemy force (chasing your small ball). A group of well managed mnm (12 marine 4 medic) can shred most small-medium zerg groups with impunity, so it would have to be quite a large force chasing the marines. If they give up chasing and head to flank your ball, you know exactly where they're coming from and now the small group can go flank the flankers.

Take everybody's standard map, Python, for example. If you are pressuring a base, the middle of a map would be a good place for the group to hide. If they are attacked, they can run pretty much everywhere. It is also hard to flank them, as they are in the middle and it would require quite a commitment to flank this force. So while your ball is attacking, rather than saving up for a new ball you grab the next two production cycles of marines and tell them to keep slightly behind the ball from expected avenues of flanking. On a map like blue storm, a good place for this group would be that staircase above/below the raised platform, depending on where you are. That way, if your force gets attacked, that group can rush in and flank an enemy group, splitting the lurker fire and basically raping the enemy force. i.e.
flankers
enemy ball enemy flankers

Even if you lose the flanking group, a head on fight between zerg and terran midgame armies almost always results in a terran victory.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-06 20:54:15
February 06 2009 20:52 GMT
#7
This can work as long as youre 100% sure theyre only going to face the flank and not the main army (so spliiting them is a split second decision when the zergs attack is about to hit you), however, keeping your main army a bit spread is enough, having a big distance between groups will make them really vulnerable, maybe will fuck up with what a newbies expectations but any other will just see that group as a gift.

This "they can run everywhere" argument only happens against zergs with shitty micro or a bad unit composition, especially when facing much bigger armies.

A group of unhotkeyed mnm will not shred through anything special against a hotkeyed zerg army.

Not to mention, now you have 1 more place to pay attention to, that makes you more vulnerable to spells.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
February 07 2009 02:20 GMT
#8
On February 07 2009 02:13 Caller wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.


I somehow took your "split a small force off from ball" as splitting your entire army up into small groups. If you do that then you'd probably want a vessel with each group and you'd be more likely to lose them.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 07 2009 04:10 GMT
#9
On February 07 2009 11:20 Durak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2009 02:13 Caller wrote:
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.


I somehow took your "split a small force off from ball" as splitting your entire army up into small groups. If you do that then you'd probably want a vessel with each group and you'd be more likely to lose them.

you don't need a vessel with each group. It's not a seperate task force, its just there as a defensive precaution.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 07 2009 12:04 GMT
#10
people don't do this because zerg is dangerous

you can't claim too much real estate with your army or you will meet savage resistance

marines are much stronger when theyre all together, that's why people run from lurkers or spread during an attack. having a little group off to the side is practically asking to lose one of those two groups to a skilled zerg player

of course, you're not always going to lose them. sometimes it'll work out nicely, but the threat to your survival is very real so people tend to do what's safer out in the field
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 6h 7m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 129
ProTech128
BRAT_OK 75
Trap 44
MindelVK 26
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26140
Shuttle 982
Hyuk 140
firebathero 139
Dewaltoss 60
sSak 54
Barracks 52
Mong 49
Pusan 41
Sharp 25
[ Show more ]
Rock 23
HiyA 17
ajuk12(nOOB) 13
910 12
Free 9
Counter-Strike
fl0m4679
shoxiejesuss1164
dupreeh247
Other Games
gofns18235
Grubby1667
KnowMe432
Beastyqt361
XaKoH 284
DeMusliM276
byalli253
Livibee130
ArmadaUGS98
C9.Mang082
Trikslyr58
QueenE47
Mew2King46
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick191
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile130
• Adnapsc2 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki16
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV605
League of Legends
• TFBlade864
Other Games
• imaqtpie723
• Shiphtur251
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 7m
Rogue vs Cure
Replay Cast
7h 7m
Big Brain Bouts
16h 7m
Garitos vs ArT
Lambo vs Percival
TriGGeR vs ByuN
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 16h
OSC
1d 18h
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
1d 21h
Mixu vs TBD
Spirit vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
Patches Events
1d 22h
OSC
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
GSL
3 days
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
Escore
6 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.