• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:19
CEST 04:19
KST 11:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection2Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
[BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June0Weekly Cups (May 25-31): Clem doubles, 2v2 circuit heads toward finale0StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th150Weekly Cups (May 18-24): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League6
StarCraft 2
General
The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser Valorant Anti-Cheat: New Measures Against Unfair My starcraft 2 changes StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th Oliveira Would Have Returned If EWC Continued
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
FlaSh's ASL S21 Finals Review BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Tesagi Viewer - A new era of replay watching 14k games analyzed: Cross Spawn Nexus first good? VPN experiences
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [BSL22] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CEST [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread How cold is too cold to be outdoors? Dating: How's your luck? Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4371 users

Random musing about TvZ

Blogs > Caller
Post a Reply
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 16:58 GMT
#1
I've always wondered why Terrans don't keep a half squad or so of mnm off to the side away from their ball. Because lurkers are hideously vulnerable to being flanked by mnm, especially when their ling support is gone. So recently I've tried to keep a squad or so of mnm away from the rest of my ball, at the very least to force zerg to waste time to burrow and try to kill them off while I set up my main force into a better reception for a welcoming committee. I find that my optimal size for an mnm group is 12 marine + 4 medic, which can do absolutely ludicrous amounts of damage to a zerg force, especially because mnm is so mobile and can run away (until ultras). Not to mention that you can also use them to stop expo attempts and defend ramps from lurkers being burrowed on top indefinitely, snipe overlords, cut off zerg defiler reinforcements, etc.

I would show screenshots but my scx appears to be broken T_T

Note: this will not work well at all against ultralisks.

**
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
February 06 2009 17:05 GMT
#2
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 17:13 GMT
#3
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
February 06 2009 17:27 GMT
#4
because it's hard to flank a flank?
seriously i think it could a good idea though
Artosis *
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States2140 Posts
February 06 2009 17:30 GMT
#5
theres no situation this would be good for in a standard high level tvz.

if you have a group off to one side, they only need to attack this group instead of your main group, and it will die so fast u will wonder why in the hell you didn't have it with ur army. also theres lots of pressuring back and forth with marine medic vs lurker armies, and it would be impossible to keep the other group in a good location relative to where everything else is.

in addition to this, if you go for a marine medic style play vs zerg, you are not on the defense. you are attacking. they will meet you at expansions or when you get out of position.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/Artosis
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 06 2009 17:51 GMT
#6
On February 07 2009 02:30 Artosis wrote:
theres no situation this would be good for in a standard high level tvz.

if you have a group off to one side, they only need to attack this group instead of your main group, and it will die so fast u will wonder why in the hell you didn't have it with ur army. also theres lots of pressuring back and forth with marine medic vs lurker armies, and it would be impossible to keep the other group in a good location relative to where everything else is.

in addition to this, if you go for a marine medic style play vs zerg, you are not on the defense. you are attacking. they will meet you at expansions or when you get out of position.


The terran ball itself is not very mobile, as tanks are pretty slow and marines have to be at he same speed in order to avoid splitting up the ball. A group of mnm is fast and can run away pretty easily. If they do chase the small group, then your main ball can go ahead and attack without fear of an army flanking them as you now know the position of an enemy force (chasing your small ball). A group of well managed mnm (12 marine 4 medic) can shred most small-medium zerg groups with impunity, so it would have to be quite a large force chasing the marines. If they give up chasing and head to flank your ball, you know exactly where they're coming from and now the small group can go flank the flankers.

Take everybody's standard map, Python, for example. If you are pressuring a base, the middle of a map would be a good place for the group to hide. If they are attacked, they can run pretty much everywhere. It is also hard to flank them, as they are in the middle and it would require quite a commitment to flank this force. So while your ball is attacking, rather than saving up for a new ball you grab the next two production cycles of marines and tell them to keep slightly behind the ball from expected avenues of flanking. On a map like blue storm, a good place for this group would be that staircase above/below the raised platform, depending on where you are. That way, if your force gets attacked, that group can rush in and flank an enemy group, splitting the lurker fire and basically raping the enemy force. i.e.
flankers
enemy ball enemy flankers

Even if you lose the flanking group, a head on fight between zerg and terran midgame armies almost always results in a terran victory.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Cloud
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Sexico5880 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-06 20:54:15
February 06 2009 20:52 GMT
#7
This can work as long as youre 100% sure theyre only going to face the flank and not the main army (so spliiting them is a split second decision when the zergs attack is about to hit you), however, keeping your main army a bit spread is enough, having a big distance between groups will make them really vulnerable, maybe will fuck up with what a newbies expectations but any other will just see that group as a gift.

This "they can run everywhere" argument only happens against zergs with shitty micro or a bad unit composition, especially when facing much bigger armies.

A group of unhotkeyed mnm will not shred through anything special against a hotkeyed zerg army.

Not to mention, now you have 1 more place to pay attention to, that makes you more vulnerable to spells.
BlueLaguna on West, msg for game.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3685 Posts
February 07 2009 02:20 GMT
#8
On February 07 2009 02:13 Caller wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.


I somehow took your "split a small force off from ball" as splitting your entire army up into small groups. If you do that then you'd probably want a vessel with each group and you'd be more likely to lose them.
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
February 07 2009 04:10 GMT
#9
On February 07 2009 11:20 Durak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 07 2009 02:13 Caller wrote:
On February 07 2009 02:05 Durak wrote:
I think it's because it would take a lot of skill to pull off. A group of 12 rines and 4 medics can pretty much kill any small-medium zerg force if micro'd properly and not flanked. The problem is that you'd need to micro a lot of groups carefully. The other thing is that you'd need to split up your vessels and with a lot of small forces, your vessels would be vulnerable. My opinion anyway.


wait why would you spread vessels from your ball

scan ftw it's not like u'll be trying to bust a large formation of lurkers. One or two lurkers, maybe 3 depending on their positioning, is all the squad will face at a time... which shouldn't require more than one scan.


I somehow took your "split a small force off from ball" as splitting your entire army up into small groups. If you do that then you'd probably want a vessel with each group and you'd be more likely to lose them.

you don't need a vessel with each group. It's not a seperate task force, its just there as a defensive precaution.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
February 07 2009 12:04 GMT
#10
people don't do this because zerg is dangerous

you can't claim too much real estate with your army or you will meet savage resistance

marines are much stronger when theyre all together, that's why people run from lurkers or spread during an attack. having a little group off to the side is practically asking to lose one of those two groups to a skilled zerg player

of course, you're not always going to lose them. sometimes it'll work out nicely, but the threat to your survival is very real so people tend to do what's safer out in the field
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
WardiTV Mondays #83
CranKy Ducklings98
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft584
Nina 120
RuFF_SC2 64
ROOTCatZ 58
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 5913
Calm 1241
Artosis 644
Leta 151
NaDa 25
Noble 25
Bale 15
Dota 2
monkeys_forever412
League of Legends
Doublelift5086
JimRising 579
Counter-Strike
Fnx 828
taco 730
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox402
Other Games
summit1g11293
Day[9].tv1463
shahzam742
C9.Mang0492
Hui .160
Maynarde145
XaKoH 130
ViBE47
minikerr4
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV299
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP27
• davetesta16
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21162
Other Games
• Day9tv1463
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
6h 41m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
12h 41m
Maestros of the Game
13h 11m
Clem vs Lambo
Zoun vs SKillous
Replay Cast
21h 41m
Replay Cast
1d 6h
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 12h
Grudge Match
1d 13h
FlaShFTW vs A.Alm
OSC
1d 18h
GSL
2 days
herO vs Rogue
Maru vs Cure
Patches Events
2 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
BSL
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
Maestros of the Game
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.