• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 06:47
CET 12:47
KST 20:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice5Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza1Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0258
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza
Tourneys
RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare
Brood War
General
Gypsy to Korea BSL 22 Map Contest — Submissions OPEN to March 10 BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ It's March 3rd
Tourneys
[BSL22] Open Qualifier #1 - Sunday 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BWCL Season 64 Announcement The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Diablo 2 thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Telegram @ufopo25 Buy weed cocaine in London The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
Telegram @ufopo25 Buy weed cocaine in Geneva The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Gaming-Related Deaths
TrAiDoS
ONE GREAT AMERICAN MARINE…
XenOsky
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2167 users

the way i play

Blogs > axel
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
November 27 2008 12:33 GMT
#1
I have been playing sc for like 5 or 6 years now. I know apm is suposed to not matter and i could reach pretty decent rank ( B-) with only 130/150 apm. Also i beat several times highers ranks than this even if it was traning games. Still i'm totally unable to make a 10 minute game with 200 apm. I mean even if i spam like mad and if my life depended of it I FUCKING CANT REACH 200 APM.
When I watch bwhcart early season it's always the same , 90 % of my games i have lower apm than the guys i beat, sometimes some hardcore noobs have like 250 apm. But i repeat again, even if i try to break my 150 apm limit i have never been able to break 200 apm even with hardcore spaming. You could say " practice more" but i have been practising sc A LOT during the past years ( some weeks up to 10 h / days whole week).
This is not like if i sucked and could find the reason. As i said i 'm really ok / decent player but with this low apm i will always be limited to B- rank. WHy? i will explain you why apm matters with some eq:

1) Yesterday on Longinus, i'm terran vs P . I Fasr expanded , made a perfect split , spent all my money while constantly producing units from 4 facts , always producing scv and making depot in the right timing . There was nearly nothing better i could do. But happens a critiqal situation : i have about 100/200 pop and i just finished my third expansions : now I ll have to go out , set a defense for my third expansions WHICH MEANS a lot of things to do and think during a very litle moment:
1) scout where his troops are : i dont want to be flanked /raped just wheni open my wall and my units go out in line.
2) after scooting think to the best unit placement considering where he his and how much he has.
3) Check my first upgrade (+1 is nearly finished)
4) build 2 more depots
5) lay mines
6) send a litle group of vulture to harass somewhere AND lay some means for my defense to spend some if i would lose theses vulure.
7) check any hidden tech with scan ( carriers , arbiters)
8 ) Changing the f ucking rally points to somewhere near my third.
9) Add 2 more factories
10) Make turets
11) start 4 th expansion ( double gas at 5 on longinus)

So with my 130/150 apm i have to deal with 11 important things in less than 5 seconds with the threaten of being crushed. I'm not enough faster and i 'll tell you what hapened and how i lost.

1)i scouted and saw he had about 2 groups of goons + 1 shutle , i group at each big choke on longinus ( spot at 6) so he could deny every vulture harrass and sandwich me.

2) my unit placement was in fact randomly made cause i saw him moving a bit and i was paniced.
3) its why i forogot to check my upgrade.
4)Bumb its why i forgot also my depot
5)i layed mines in a shitty way , sometimes under my tanks cause i wanted to lay fastly as much mean asi could.
6) Only one vulture survived from my ' vulture harasment " idea.great.
7) i did not use my scan to check tech
8) I focused more on changing the rally points which in fact is quite stupid whenever i could not have been able to secure outside near my third i would have rally vulture and tanks on his troops lol
9)i added factories but their placement was just horrible : later it would have bug my others factories rally point
10) The big mistake : i was not enough fast to make all theses things and put turets : its how i lost he had 2 shutles with 4 zel each , he sent all his troops and some zealots exploded in mines and in tanks. At the end i lost my third , nearly all my troops ( and the one with new rally points lol)
By that time he had started carriers on his double gas expo at 2 , carriers than i would have scanned if i was faster.
11) ofc i never could take a 4th expo

This shows how apm matters , or at leastgaming speed or effcient apm , call it like u want whatever but if i had been faster , i would have properly lay my mines and put turets in right angles , i would have put my 2 depot and so , i mean with 100 more apm or so which means about 5/6 real and efficient actions. Howi know this ? Because when i play vs spamming noobs ; even if they do like 250 apm , their real apm is like 80 , which mean in fact they are slower than me and in theses situations i have always enough time to do calmly all theses listed things.

I ll put more exemples later. Any reason why i'm so slow after all this time?



distant_voice
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Germany2521 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-27 12:43:25
November 27 2008 12:42 GMT
#2
people have been trying to figure out how to measure apm more effectively, that's why you see a lot of people who talk about eapm, which doesn't really solve the problem.

what you describe is multitasking. having decent apm has something to do with it, but a number alone doesn't make a valid statement about how good you are at it.

in the end apm doesn't really say anything about the quality of your game, it's all about the results you get, and that can be pretty nicely measured by your iccup rank because it takes a lot of games into account and is much more valid than "I beat [good player], I'm as good as him." If you're serious about faking being good though, you'll manage to manipulate your rank too (by dodging koreans or only 4-pooling for example).
This is my truth, tell me yours!
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
November 27 2008 13:01 GMT
#3
Also my question was why can't i reach 200 apm with spaming ? It s like i was telling you i can't beat 100metters world record , i just -can't- even if i really try. maybe i'm too lazy?
MasterReY
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Germany2708 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-27 13:09:40
November 27 2008 13:08 GMT
#4
oh man, i have exactly the same "problem".
I'm a C+ player and the persons i play always have higher apm than me.
i have about 120 :O but well im a protoss 1a2a3a

but anyway: the werid thing is: even if i TRY to have a higher apm by spamming (seriously i really just spam and even play worse because i just focus on the spamming) i can only reach about 170
https://www.twitch.tv/MasterReY/ ~ Biggest Reach fan on TL.net (Don't even dare to mention LR now) ~ R.I.P Violet ~ Developer of SCRChart
TL+ Member
ThE_OsToJiY
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada1167 Posts
November 27 2008 13:18 GMT
#5
Try to aim for just a bit higher than what you currently have. So if your 130, try and get 150 every game, and once you can get 150 every game, you try and get 170 etc...

This worked quite well for me, and I've been at around 200 for a while now, while only playing the game for 2 years.
@ostojiy
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
November 27 2008 13:58 GMT
#6
Well I'm quite different. I only spam a little in the first minute of the game. Sometimes I just sit there and stare while my workers shuffle about. I don't like doing excess actions and don't really aim to have a high apm.

But I still manage to have around 180-200 apm in a normal game, if it's a short or especially intense game I can sometimes get close to 300.

The only way to get high, efficient apm is practice, practice, and practice. You want to get use to building quickly from a lot of factories, telling an scv to build a depot in the desired location should take a split second, running workers the moment you see a dot on the mini-map should feel completely natural, etc.

There's two different ways you can approach this:

1) Concentrate on doing everything you need to as fast as possible, not the stupid number at the end of the game. Don't artificially inflate your apm with spamming. Basically increasing the level of your play will result in higher apm, high apm will not (necessarily) result in more skill.

2) Try to play crazily fast, focusing mostly on building workers, units and not hitting your supply limit. Once you're use to doing this at a high speed then you start focusing on more things, scouting, timings, harassment, etc. You'll start of playing badly and losing a lot, but in return you'll have faster hands which you can convert into useful actions later.

I personally think the 1st method is better and will make you a much stronger player, but I've seen people who do very well using the 2nd method so it depends on the person I guess.
No I'm never serious.
KrAzYfoOL
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Australia3037 Posts
November 27 2008 14:02 GMT
#7
watch a fpvod of a pro gamer and see how they utilize their actions and try to do the same.
It's better to burn out than to fade away
Lq_ fAn
Profile Joined June 2007
Lithuania154 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-27 14:39:25
November 27 2008 14:36 GMT
#8
yea watch progamer's fpvod
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
November 27 2008 14:45 GMT
#9
I don't know I just spam my ass off it kinds of warms me up I guess.

If I don't spam in the beginning my macro isn't as good.....and macro is my strong point (I'm D+ Terran / C- Toss but bad choices and horrible micro is what makes my rank low ^_^)
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
November 27 2008 14:58 GMT
#10
Honestly, I used to day that APM doesn't affect your skill much. And it doesn't. How you execute your plans though, especially at a higher level, you need APM. Obviously you don't always need 250+ APM like the progamers.
What I've found APM helps for is:
Simply doing things faster, such as macro, micro, etc.
It helps with tiny things that make your timing for exact, i.e.sending peons to gas as soon as it finishes.
Seeing drops, or your opponent's whereabouts.

About the last one, I'm like.. a C- 210-230 APM Z. This APM is WAY too high for what I really need to do, and I'm not even trying to spam. I find myself spamming unconsciously, but instead of dragging boxes, like telling things to mine/attack/move 100 times, or macroing 5 times in a row. But what I've noticed, is that I rarely get dropped unless I am distracted now. Just something to think about.
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
November 27 2008 15:47 GMT
#11
u need high apm to reach high ranks especially as terran , read again my exemple there are several critiqal situations, for every matchup i guess , where you really need to be very fast and the way you will deal theses situations can decide who will win/ lose on a long run.
Dead
Profile Joined November 2008
71 Posts
November 27 2008 16:02 GMT
#12
oO I do not have such "problem". Somehow I utilize my actions and get like 230-240ish every game. Like few months ago I was spamming a lot and reached more than 300. :D Sometimes even 400 but I realized that this is not good to spam that much so I now use my 230. I feel I spend my actions nicely but I am not gosu - I have maaaaaany other flaws. For example: low amount of strategies, panicking in official games, stupid mistakes at PvT and many other things that will keep me from being good for quite some time.
Beware Firebat Rush~!!!
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
November 27 2008 16:16 GMT
#13
Wow, B-? I have 180APM and I'm only D+, Maybe I just don't play enough though..
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Dead
Profile Joined November 2008
71 Posts
November 27 2008 16:21 GMT
#14
I think he means that one could do B- with like 150 APM. I do not think he means that he is B-. Or I missunderstanded this so sorry then.
Beware Firebat Rush~!!!
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 27 2008 16:29 GMT
#15
On November 27 2008 22:08 MasterReY wrote:
oh man, i have exactly the same "problem".
I'm a C+ player and the persons i play always have higher apm than me.
i have about 120 :O but well im a protoss 1a2a3a

but anyway: the werid thing is: even if i TRY to have a higher apm by spamming (seriously i really just spam and even play worse because i just focus on the spamming) i can only reach about 170

Are you regretting cheesing every game now?

OP: I know you say you're LIMITED to B- (you're not) with 130 APM, but I'd like to know what your actual rank is...
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9950 Posts
November 27 2008 16:48 GMT
#16
I was stuck at ~120 for a long time too. The reason is usually not your handspeed, it's the latency between actions. This means its a mental problem.

Hmm maybe, that wasnt clear enough. I'll elaborate a bit more. Low apm means you perform less actions in the same minute a higher apm guy performs more actions. Or differently said, you perform the same actions in a longer time than a high apm guy.

Unless you have bad hand-eye coordination, it's often not the action itself that takes longer than with an apm player, its the sequential act of multiple actions. With other words, it takes too long for your brain to prepare for the next action after the first has been completed.

Don't believe me? Look at your own words. You can split perfectly (which requires zero inter-action thinking, and high handspeed), but you have trouble doing multiple things midgame at the same speed you split.

The key to getting higher apm in your case isn't training 1a2a3a4a like mad to gain a couple of miliseconds, it's about being uberfocussed during the game. You need to think of your next action while you're performing the former. You need to have a queue of actions lined up in your brain, so you dont end up starting a depot and thinking about your next action for 0.1 second.

It's very hard to learn, and very hard to describe. I guess some people never really get past a certain APM barrier. Look at the pro's, they train HOURS a day and often cant make it past 250.
Everyone should be able to get 250 though, with a nice amount of training.

So, in your next game, stop thinking "gotta get higher apm gotta get higher apm", but start thinking "after sending this scv to make a depot I'm gonna check how far my tanks is from being done, gonna make an scv at my natural expansion etc.."

I hope this was useful
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 27 2008 16:52 GMT
#17
How much APM did it require to proxy a factory in plain sight against sc2gg?
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17921 Posts
November 27 2008 16:55 GMT
#18
This is why APM doesnt mean a whole lot..

I mean Hell im D/D+ And i can do 190-220 in TvZ with like 30-40% hotkeys easy..
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 27 2008 17:01 GMT
#19
No... It does... You just also have to have the talent to utilize the extra actions.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9950 Posts
November 27 2008 17:03 GMT
#20
On November 28 2008 01:52 Chef wrote:
How much APM did it require to proxy a factory in plain sight against sc2gg?

I averaged around 230 APM till the moment I lifted my CC lol
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
KCM Race Survival
10:00
Week 8
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 1440
LiquipediaDiscussion
The PondCast
10:00
Episode 84
CranKy Ducklings61
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech120
Rex 67
SC2Nice 0
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 60250
Bisu 948
Jaedong 831
BeSt 423
actioN 317
ZerO 280
firebathero 234
Larva 226
Hyuk 199
Light 194
[ Show more ]
Snow 186
Stork 183
Mini 169
Soma 166
EffOrt 142
Last 140
Shuttle 102
Pusan 86
Dewaltoss 82
Soulkey 82
Rush 79
JYJ 66
Sharp 65
Mong 63
ToSsGirL 59
ggaemo 56
Mind 39
JulyZerg 39
Backho 37
[sc1f]eonzerg 29
Sea.KH 28
Free 26
NaDa 25
sSak 23
zelot 22
HiyA 20
sorry 20
yabsab 17
Sacsri 16
soO 15
Shine 14
Terrorterran 13
GoRush 11
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
Movie 8
IntoTheRainbow 6
Icarus 2
Dota 2
BananaSlamJamma87
NeuroSwarm85
XcaliburYe23
Counter-Strike
olofmeister2490
shoxiejesuss1113
x6flipin426
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King127
Other Games
singsing1517
B2W.Neo670
ceh9454
Liquid`RaSZi393
crisheroes311
Sick256
Lowko152
Happy131
DeMusliM91
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick129
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 4
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota228
League of Legends
• Jankos1143
• Stunt567
Upcoming Events
WardiTV Winter Champion…
13m
Classic vs Nicoract
herO vs YoungYakov
ByuN vs Gerald
Clem vs Krystianer
Replay Cast
12h 13m
Ultimate Battle
1d
Light vs ZerO
WardiTV Winter Champion…
1d
MaxPax vs Spirit
Rogue vs Bunny
Cure vs SHIN
Solar vs Zoun
Replay Cast
1d 12h
CranKy Ducklings
1d 22h
WardiTV Winter Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
3 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
OSC
4 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-04
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
WardiTV Winter 2026
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.