• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:21
CEST 03:21
KST 10:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?67Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)8Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!40Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6
StarCraft 2
General
SC4ALL: II Winner Will Earn a Spot at HSC 30! Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) September World Ranking: herO leads, Serral climbs
Tourneys
IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly SC2 INu's Battles#20 [BO.9] 2026 GSTL Announcement Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August)
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome
Brood War
General
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion [Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 Brood War in Budapest ! WORTEX 2026 BW Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues BSL LAN Party - Kraków 29-30 August - OPEN SIGNUPS
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 6959 users

the way i play

Blogs > axel
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
November 27 2008 12:33 GMT
#1
I have been playing sc for like 5 or 6 years now. I know apm is suposed to not matter and i could reach pretty decent rank ( B-) with only 130/150 apm. Also i beat several times highers ranks than this even if it was traning games. Still i'm totally unable to make a 10 minute game with 200 apm. I mean even if i spam like mad and if my life depended of it I FUCKING CANT REACH 200 APM.
When I watch bwhcart early season it's always the same , 90 % of my games i have lower apm than the guys i beat, sometimes some hardcore noobs have like 250 apm. But i repeat again, even if i try to break my 150 apm limit i have never been able to break 200 apm even with hardcore spaming. You could say " practice more" but i have been practising sc A LOT during the past years ( some weeks up to 10 h / days whole week).
This is not like if i sucked and could find the reason. As i said i 'm really ok / decent player but with this low apm i will always be limited to B- rank. WHy? i will explain you why apm matters with some eq:

1) Yesterday on Longinus, i'm terran vs P . I Fasr expanded , made a perfect split , spent all my money while constantly producing units from 4 facts , always producing scv and making depot in the right timing . There was nearly nothing better i could do. But happens a critiqal situation : i have about 100/200 pop and i just finished my third expansions : now I ll have to go out , set a defense for my third expansions WHICH MEANS a lot of things to do and think during a very litle moment:
1) scout where his troops are : i dont want to be flanked /raped just wheni open my wall and my units go out in line.
2) after scooting think to the best unit placement considering where he his and how much he has.
3) Check my first upgrade (+1 is nearly finished)
4) build 2 more depots
5) lay mines
6) send a litle group of vulture to harass somewhere AND lay some means for my defense to spend some if i would lose theses vulure.
7) check any hidden tech with scan ( carriers , arbiters)
8 ) Changing the f ucking rally points to somewhere near my third.
9) Add 2 more factories
10) Make turets
11) start 4 th expansion ( double gas at 5 on longinus)

So with my 130/150 apm i have to deal with 11 important things in less than 5 seconds with the threaten of being crushed. I'm not enough faster and i 'll tell you what hapened and how i lost.

1)i scouted and saw he had about 2 groups of goons + 1 shutle , i group at each big choke on longinus ( spot at 6) so he could deny every vulture harrass and sandwich me.

2) my unit placement was in fact randomly made cause i saw him moving a bit and i was paniced.
3) its why i forogot to check my upgrade.
4)Bumb its why i forgot also my depot
5)i layed mines in a shitty way , sometimes under my tanks cause i wanted to lay fastly as much mean asi could.
6) Only one vulture survived from my ' vulture harasment " idea.great.
7) i did not use my scan to check tech
8) I focused more on changing the rally points which in fact is quite stupid whenever i could not have been able to secure outside near my third i would have rally vulture and tanks on his troops lol
9)i added factories but their placement was just horrible : later it would have bug my others factories rally point
10) The big mistake : i was not enough fast to make all theses things and put turets : its how i lost he had 2 shutles with 4 zel each , he sent all his troops and some zealots exploded in mines and in tanks. At the end i lost my third , nearly all my troops ( and the one with new rally points lol)
By that time he had started carriers on his double gas expo at 2 , carriers than i would have scanned if i was faster.
11) ofc i never could take a 4th expo

This shows how apm matters , or at leastgaming speed or effcient apm , call it like u want whatever but if i had been faster , i would have properly lay my mines and put turets in right angles , i would have put my 2 depot and so , i mean with 100 more apm or so which means about 5/6 real and efficient actions. Howi know this ? Because when i play vs spamming noobs ; even if they do like 250 apm , their real apm is like 80 , which mean in fact they are slower than me and in theses situations i have always enough time to do calmly all theses listed things.

I ll put more exemples later. Any reason why i'm so slow after all this time?



distant_voice
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Germany2521 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-27 12:43:25
November 27 2008 12:42 GMT
#2
people have been trying to figure out how to measure apm more effectively, that's why you see a lot of people who talk about eapm, which doesn't really solve the problem.

what you describe is multitasking. having decent apm has something to do with it, but a number alone doesn't make a valid statement about how good you are at it.

in the end apm doesn't really say anything about the quality of your game, it's all about the results you get, and that can be pretty nicely measured by your iccup rank because it takes a lot of games into account and is much more valid than "I beat [good player], I'm as good as him." If you're serious about faking being good though, you'll manage to manipulate your rank too (by dodging koreans or only 4-pooling for example).
This is my truth, tell me yours!
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
November 27 2008 13:01 GMT
#3
Also my question was why can't i reach 200 apm with spaming ? It s like i was telling you i can't beat 100metters world record , i just -can't- even if i really try. maybe i'm too lazy?
MasterReY
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Germany2708 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-27 13:09:40
November 27 2008 13:08 GMT
#4
oh man, i have exactly the same "problem".
I'm a C+ player and the persons i play always have higher apm than me.
i have about 120 :O but well im a protoss 1a2a3a

but anyway: the werid thing is: even if i TRY to have a higher apm by spamming (seriously i really just spam and even play worse because i just focus on the spamming) i can only reach about 170
https://www.twitch.tv/MasterReY/ ~ Biggest Reach fan on TL.net (Don't even dare to mention LR now) ~ R.I.P Violet ~ Developer of SCRChart
TL+ Member
ThE_OsToJiY
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Canada1167 Posts
November 27 2008 13:18 GMT
#5
Try to aim for just a bit higher than what you currently have. So if your 130, try and get 150 every game, and once you can get 150 every game, you try and get 170 etc...

This worked quite well for me, and I've been at around 200 for a while now, while only playing the game for 2 years.
@ostojiy
Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
November 27 2008 13:58 GMT
#6
Well I'm quite different. I only spam a little in the first minute of the game. Sometimes I just sit there and stare while my workers shuffle about. I don't like doing excess actions and don't really aim to have a high apm.

But I still manage to have around 180-200 apm in a normal game, if it's a short or especially intense game I can sometimes get close to 300.

The only way to get high, efficient apm is practice, practice, and practice. You want to get use to building quickly from a lot of factories, telling an scv to build a depot in the desired location should take a split second, running workers the moment you see a dot on the mini-map should feel completely natural, etc.

There's two different ways you can approach this:

1) Concentrate on doing everything you need to as fast as possible, not the stupid number at the end of the game. Don't artificially inflate your apm with spamming. Basically increasing the level of your play will result in higher apm, high apm will not (necessarily) result in more skill.

2) Try to play crazily fast, focusing mostly on building workers, units and not hitting your supply limit. Once you're use to doing this at a high speed then you start focusing on more things, scouting, timings, harassment, etc. You'll start of playing badly and losing a lot, but in return you'll have faster hands which you can convert into useful actions later.

I personally think the 1st method is better and will make you a much stronger player, but I've seen people who do very well using the 2nd method so it depends on the person I guess.
No I'm never serious.
KrAzYfoOL
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
Australia3037 Posts
November 27 2008 14:02 GMT
#7
watch a fpvod of a pro gamer and see how they utilize their actions and try to do the same.
It's better to burn out than to fade away
Lq_ fAn
Profile Joined June 2007
Lithuania154 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-27 14:39:25
November 27 2008 14:36 GMT
#8
yea watch progamer's fpvod
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
November 27 2008 14:45 GMT
#9
I don't know I just spam my ass off it kinds of warms me up I guess.

If I don't spam in the beginning my macro isn't as good.....and macro is my strong point (I'm D+ Terran / C- Toss but bad choices and horrible micro is what makes my rank low ^_^)
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
Archaic
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States4024 Posts
November 27 2008 14:58 GMT
#10
Honestly, I used to day that APM doesn't affect your skill much. And it doesn't. How you execute your plans though, especially at a higher level, you need APM. Obviously you don't always need 250+ APM like the progamers.
What I've found APM helps for is:
Simply doing things faster, such as macro, micro, etc.
It helps with tiny things that make your timing for exact, i.e.sending peons to gas as soon as it finishes.
Seeing drops, or your opponent's whereabouts.

About the last one, I'm like.. a C- 210-230 APM Z. This APM is WAY too high for what I really need to do, and I'm not even trying to spam. I find myself spamming unconsciously, but instead of dragging boxes, like telling things to mine/attack/move 100 times, or macroing 5 times in a row. But what I've noticed, is that I rarely get dropped unless I am distracted now. Just something to think about.
axel
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
France385 Posts
November 27 2008 15:47 GMT
#11
u need high apm to reach high ranks especially as terran , read again my exemple there are several critiqal situations, for every matchup i guess , where you really need to be very fast and the way you will deal theses situations can decide who will win/ lose on a long run.
Dead
Profile Joined November 2008
71 Posts
November 27 2008 16:02 GMT
#12
oO I do not have such "problem". Somehow I utilize my actions and get like 230-240ish every game. Like few months ago I was spamming a lot and reached more than 300. :D Sometimes even 400 but I realized that this is not good to spam that much so I now use my 230. I feel I spend my actions nicely but I am not gosu - I have maaaaaany other flaws. For example: low amount of strategies, panicking in official games, stupid mistakes at PvT and many other things that will keep me from being good for quite some time.
Beware Firebat Rush~!!!
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
November 27 2008 16:16 GMT
#13
Wow, B-? I have 180APM and I'm only D+, Maybe I just don't play enough though..
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Dead
Profile Joined November 2008
71 Posts
November 27 2008 16:21 GMT
#14
I think he means that one could do B- with like 150 APM. I do not think he means that he is B-. Or I missunderstanded this so sorry then.
Beware Firebat Rush~!!!
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 27 2008 16:29 GMT
#15
On November 27 2008 22:08 MasterReY wrote:
oh man, i have exactly the same "problem".
I'm a C+ player and the persons i play always have higher apm than me.
i have about 120 :O but well im a protoss 1a2a3a

but anyway: the werid thing is: even if i TRY to have a higher apm by spamming (seriously i really just spam and even play worse because i just focus on the spamming) i can only reach about 170

Are you regretting cheesing every game now?

OP: I know you say you're LIMITED to B- (you're not) with 130 APM, but I'd like to know what your actual rank is...
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9950 Posts
November 27 2008 16:48 GMT
#16
I was stuck at ~120 for a long time too. The reason is usually not your handspeed, it's the latency between actions. This means its a mental problem.

Hmm maybe, that wasnt clear enough. I'll elaborate a bit more. Low apm means you perform less actions in the same minute a higher apm guy performs more actions. Or differently said, you perform the same actions in a longer time than a high apm guy.

Unless you have bad hand-eye coordination, it's often not the action itself that takes longer than with an apm player, its the sequential act of multiple actions. With other words, it takes too long for your brain to prepare for the next action after the first has been completed.

Don't believe me? Look at your own words. You can split perfectly (which requires zero inter-action thinking, and high handspeed), but you have trouble doing multiple things midgame at the same speed you split.

The key to getting higher apm in your case isn't training 1a2a3a4a like mad to gain a couple of miliseconds, it's about being uberfocussed during the game. You need to think of your next action while you're performing the former. You need to have a queue of actions lined up in your brain, so you dont end up starting a depot and thinking about your next action for 0.1 second.

It's very hard to learn, and very hard to describe. I guess some people never really get past a certain APM barrier. Look at the pro's, they train HOURS a day and often cant make it past 250.
Everyone should be able to get 250 though, with a nice amount of training.

So, in your next game, stop thinking "gotta get higher apm gotta get higher apm", but start thinking "after sending this scv to make a depot I'm gonna check how far my tanks is from being done, gonna make an scv at my natural expansion etc.."

I hope this was useful
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 27 2008 16:52 GMT
#17
How much APM did it require to proxy a factory in plain sight against sc2gg?
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
arb
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Noobville17922 Posts
November 27 2008 16:55 GMT
#18
This is why APM doesnt mean a whole lot..

I mean Hell im D/D+ And i can do 190-220 in TvZ with like 30-40% hotkeys easy..
Artillery spawned from the forges of Hell
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
November 27 2008 17:01 GMT
#19
No... It does... You just also have to have the talent to utilize the extra actions.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
RaGe
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
Belgium9950 Posts
November 27 2008 17:03 GMT
#20
On November 28 2008 01:52 Chef wrote:
How much APM did it require to proxy a factory in plain sight against sc2gg?

I averaged around 230 APM till the moment I lifted my CC lol
Moderatorsometimes I get intimidated by the size of my right testicle
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
01:00
ISSL Weekly #3
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
00:00
Enki Epic Series #10
Rogue vs Cure
CranKy Ducklings77
Liquipedia
The PiG Daily
22:35
GSTL Replay Cast
BASILISK vs Onsyde Gaming
PiGStarcraft479
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft479
ProTech154
NeuroSwarm 117
RuFF_SC2 85
StarCraft: Brood War
White-Ra 123
Hyuk 57
Dota 2
capcasts217
League of Legends
Doublelift4493
Counter-Strike
taco 141
adren_tv106
minikerr41
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox564
Mew2King107
Other Games
summit1g5059
Day[9].tv754
JimRising 573
C9.Mang0304
WinterStarcraft287
Maynarde86
ViBE76
PPMD52
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1515
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP70
• EnkiAlexander 33
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• Day9tv754
• Scarra468
Upcoming Events
Big Brain Bouts
8h 39m
Garitos vs ArT
Lambo vs Percival
TriGGeR vs ByuN
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 8h
OSC
1d 10h
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
1d 13h
Mixu vs TBD
Spirit vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
Patches Events
1d 14h
OSC
1d 22h
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
GSL
3 days
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Cup
3 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
KCM Race Survival
5 days
Escore
6 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.