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I want to start programming - Page 2

Blogs > clazziquai
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Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 18 2008 11:04 GMT
#21
In any case, learning on your own is EXTREMELY hard. Classes -> Internship is the way to go.
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15366 Posts
November 18 2008 12:06 GMT
#22
On November 18 2008 18:31 azndsh wrote:
Python is by far the best language for learning how to program from scratch, but C/C++ is still by far the most used language. Java is also good starting language, but it really does so much for you that you'll miss out on a lot of stuff (its design philosophy is kinda weird)

100% agree on the Python part. If you really start from scratch, start with Python. It will give you the basics and the transitioning to Java or C++ will be much easier.

Java is by far the most used language today. There is billions of lines of Java rotting in in-house corporate software. If you want to work as a software developer Java is probably the way to go.
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
November 18 2008 12:25 GMT
#23
On November 18 2008 21:06 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2008 18:31 azndsh wrote:
Python is by far the best language for learning how to program from scratch, but C/C++ is still by far the most used language. Java is also good starting language, but it really does so much for you that you'll miss out on a lot of stuff (its design philosophy is kinda weird)

100% agree on the Python part. If you really start from scratch, start with Python. It will give you the basics and the transitioning to Java or C++ will be much easier.

Java is by far the most used language today. There is billions of lines of Java rotting in in-house corporate software. If you want to work as a software developer Java is probably the way to go.


Yup; now the question no one asked. What is it that you want to program? Depending on what you want to program is depending on where you should start.
Life?
Moaf_
Profile Joined September 2006
Austria76 Posts
November 18 2008 12:48 GMT
#24
On November 18 2008 20:00 Cambium wrote:
[...] C++ might not be necessary for you to learn (unless you want to develop games or IPhone apps).


Well, as always, depends on what you kind of game you want to develop. If you aim to program an 3D engine where every bit counts, c++ and assembler coding is the only way to go. If you want to create non high-performance games, implementing them in C# with managed DirectX results in a product that is running (normally more than) sufficiently fast. For those who are interested, Microsoft developed also XNA (supports only C#) containing a framework that is basically an abstraction layer above DirectX - simplifying the coding of 2D and 3D applications for Windows/XBox games. Of course you lose some control, but it's still possible to dig deep enough into the 3D coding (e.g. using HLSL). As far as i have read, using XNA over managed DirectX results in a performance loss of about 5-15%. But still, it's possible to create games like this.
No Risk - No Fun
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
November 18 2008 13:32 GMT
#25
Shockey: Well programming.

Hm.
I've always loved computers because of games, music, and what it can do.
Therefore I became interested with computers.
Now I want to know more about them, and I think it would be pretty cool to make programs, idk just as a hobby or minor (for school) or something
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 18 2008 13:51 GMT
#26
Just wondering, how old are you?
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
clazziquai
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
6685 Posts
November 18 2008 13:58 GMT
#27
18 years old, freshman @ college.
#1 Sea.Really Fan / #1 Nesh Fan / Terran Forever~
b3h47pte
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States1317 Posts
November 18 2008 14:09 GMT
#28
start with C++. i started with it when i was 13. what they say about it being hard isn't that true :\
Scorch
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Austria3371 Posts
November 18 2008 14:11 GMT
#29
It really depends on what you want to do. After having decided on something, I'd then recommend thoroughly learning C++, Java or PHP, whatever fits that task best. You can always learn other languages later. It's quite easy to learn the most important basics of another language once you are advanced in one language and understand general programming concepts.

I'd use:
C++ for high performance applications
Java if platform independence is important, or for applets etc.
PHP for web applications

Oh, and HTML is not needed unless you actually want to do HTML stuff.
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 18 2008 14:24 GMT
#30
On November 18 2008 22:58 clazziquai wrote:
18 years old, freshman @ college.


Oh that's great news. You still have lots of time (that's when people typically start anyway) and resources!

Good luck, glhfdontgg
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
betaben
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
681 Posts
November 18 2008 14:33 GMT
#31
the most important thing is to have an aim in mind - a project of something you want to create. learning a language is boring otherwise, and you won't care once you've read the basics. forget the courses - find something you want to do and just do that. everything else will gradually follow as you need it for different projects.
Elvin_vn
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
Vietnam2038 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-18 15:59:43
November 18 2008 15:28 GMT
#32
I first learned C++ then switched to Java, the switch was a breeze to me. Whereas if you switch from java to C++, i bet it'll be a bitch :p.

I recommend Java because it's cleaner, more pure OOP than C++ and it has <interface>, very convenient to manage components. Not to mention the Collections frameworks which i use almost every time to manage array and list.

The first few months going to be boring until you are able to build something good with GUI using Swing or Web-front for the interface. Sorry for the messy sentence.

So as starter, a motivating book like..

Head First Java (http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Java-Kathy-Sierra/dp/0596009208)

..would be really good to follow. It's a really really good book, I wish I'd read it when i first started programming.
+ Show Spoiler +
it's recommended to buy the book but I know a place to get the e-book online for free, pm me if u want it
do not agrue with idiots, they will pull you down to their level and beat you with their experiences
Cambium
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States16368 Posts
November 18 2008 15:43 GMT
#33
Some decent books for starters...

Head First Java
Thinking in Java (free online)
Java in a Nutshell (more of a reference book)
Hardcore Java (more advanced)
When you want something, all the universe conspires in helping you to achieve it.
Aerox
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
Malaysia1213 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-18 16:14:16
November 18 2008 16:13 GMT
#34
On November 18 2008 20:04 Cambium wrote:
In any case, learning on your own is EXTREMELY hard. Classes -> Internship is the way to go.

Even then, I've seen a lot of coursemates fall throughout the years.

Therefore small warning/disclaimer for OP:
DOING THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY

Good luck.
"Eyes in the sky."
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-18 16:23:28
November 18 2008 16:16 GMT
#35
On November 19 2008 00:28 Elvin_vn wrote:
I first learned C++ then switched to Java, the switch was a breeze to me. Whereas if you switch from java to C++, i bet it'll be a bitch :p.

I recommend Java because it's cleaner, more pure OOP than C++ and it has <interface>, very convenient to manage components. Not to mention the Collections frameworks which i use almost every time to manage array and list.

The first few months going to be boring until you are able to build something good with GUI using Swing or Web-front for the interface. Sorry for the messy sentence.

So as starter, a motivating book like..

Head First Java (http://www.amazon.com/Head-First-Java-Kathy-Sierra/dp/0596009208)

..would be really good to follow. It's a really really good book, I wish I'd read it when i first started programming.
+ Show Spoiler +
it's recommended to buy the book but I know a place to get the e-book online for free, pm me if u want it


just want to say I thought that book sucked

I much preferred o'reilly's java in a nutshell which is HUGE and a bit dense, but imo much better to learn from

headstart only gives specific examples, and its basically: here, you retype this. and it doesnt explain a lot of java....I just really really did not like it at all.

that said, check out both books if you can before you buy them (they can be pretty expensive) and in general O'reilly tends to have the best books. You can really get burned by other books, they either wont cover enough, be too dense to read or things like that
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-11-18 16:21:49
November 18 2008 16:16 GMT
#36
Programming is a terrific enabler, and makes you smarter. You will not be disappointed!

I'm a programmer; just finished my CS degree this past year. I agree with everything Cambium said.

The only thing I might suggest is that you learn regular old "procedural" rather than "object oriented" programming to begin with (you can use Java for either; I strongly recommend Java). That's because procedural programs generally read very easily, top to bottom. Object-oriented programming is an art form and should be approached when the apparent limitations of procedural programming motivate you to do so.

Start writing simple procedural Java programs (loops, variables, function calls). You will become comfortable with Java's syntax and be ready to tackle objects and their glorious complexities (type hierarchies, polymorphism, design patterns).

edit:
The difficulty in learning programming is that "beginner" programs tend to be very contrived/boring. Like, a classic beginner program is writing a simple math calculator. I think the tutorials on the Sun site are pretty good, though.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
fusionsdf
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
Canada15390 Posts
November 18 2008 16:20 GMT
#37
On November 19 2008 01:13 Aerox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2008 20:04 Cambium wrote:
In any case, learning on your own is EXTREMELY hard. Classes -> Internship is the way to go.

Even then, I've seen a lot of coursemates fall throughout the years.

Therefore small warning/disclaimer for OP:
DOING THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY

Good luck.


oh yeah

my compsci introductory course (which is basic programming, pretty much what you would take as an option) started with 25-30 people, ended with 5-8 and only 1 person completed the last assignment.

So I mean its not like impossibly hard, but you have to be pretty dedicated, and make sure to abuse your teacher and ask questions wherever possible. Programming is a course that really really rewards prior experience, so the more you can study now before you go into a course (even just syntax) will help.

Dont be intimitaded, but take advantage of every single opportunity you can get
SKT_Best: "I actually chose Protoss because it was so hard for me to defeat Protoss as a Terran. When I first started Brood War, my main race was Terran."
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
November 18 2008 16:24 GMT
#38
On November 19 2008 01:20 fusionsdf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2008 01:13 Aerox wrote:
On November 18 2008 20:04 Cambium wrote:
In any case, learning on your own is EXTREMELY hard. Classes -> Internship is the way to go.

Even then, I've seen a lot of coursemates fall throughout the years.

Therefore small warning/disclaimer for OP:
DOING THIS IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY

Good luck.


oh yeah

my compsci introductory course (which is basic programming, pretty much what you would take as an option) started with 25-30 people, ended with 5-8 and only 1 person completed the last assignment.

So I mean its not like impossibly hard, but you have to be pretty dedicated, and make sure to abuse your teacher and ask questions wherever possible. Programming is a course that really really rewards prior experience, so the more you can study now before you go into a course (even just syntax) will help.

Dont be intimitaded, but take advantage of every single opportunity you can get

Haha so true. In my Data Structures class on the first day, the professor said, "Look to your left. Look to your right. At the end of this class, only one of you will remain." It started with about 100 people, ended with about 15-20.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
Suggestion Box
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
China115 Posts
November 18 2008 16:33 GMT
#39
I think programming books suck and you end up only copying their sample code and using it as a reference. You want to learn to program, you just need to program. Make programs that you want to make. IMO it is best you get a lot of things down without having to worry about how it looks, so you should be making programs with simple text output only.

As long as it's not a useless language I say do whatever one helps you program the most--whatever one will make you practice/play the most is the best one for you. I don't think C or C++ is necessarily too difficult for your first language. But since you don't even know HTML just learning HTML and Javascript and playing with that could help you start thinking like a programmer, which is really the part that needs to be learned--it just takes practice. Honestly just making some decent javascript stuff would be a great start, and if you can't do any HTML, do that first, too.

It's more about being able to just attack a problem, and do it well. Once you acquire this skill in one language you are fine and you can just look up things and code in other languages (of course you have to learn the technical complications and professional standards eventually too if you want to be a good programmer). And my point is, even if you just try to make random shit in HTML and javascript for the next two years (assuming you've done neither before) you probably will still not have "it" very well--that programming skill just takes time.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
November 18 2008 18:26 GMT
#40
On November 18 2008 21:06 zatic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 18 2008 18:31 azndsh wrote:
Python is by far the best language for learning how to program from scratch, but C/C++ is still by far the most used language. Java is also good starting language, but it really does so much for you that you'll miss out on a lot of stuff (its design philosophy is kinda weird)

100% agree on the Python part. If you really start from scratch, start with Python. It will give you the basics and the transitioning to Java or C++ will be much easier.

Java is by far the most used language today. There is billions of lines of Java rotting in in-house corporate software. If you want to work as a software developer Java is probably the way to go.


I actually disagree with Python being the best language to learn from scratch. Sure, its easy to learn, but it cuts corners on some rules, such as formal type declarations. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a little frustrating to move to another language (like C++ or Java) that's stricter about rules. IMO its much easier to learn a system thats strict on rules and transition to a loose one than vice versa.
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