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Thinking Physics Question 3

Blogs > micronesia
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1 2 3 Next All
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24666 Posts
September 28 2008 03:43 GMT
#1
For those who didn't read the introductory entry, head over to http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=79275

This is entry 3.

Last week the question of the week was:

Question 2
Newton's Laws of Motion

If a can of compressed air is punctured and the escaping air blows to the right, the can will move to the left in a rocket-like fashion. Now consider a vacuum can that is punctured. The air blows in the left as it enters the can. After the vacuum is filled the can will:

a) be moving to the left
b) be moving to the right
c) not be moving


The correct answer is c. First of all, for those who were confused about which way the can was punctured, I agree the wording was a bit tricky... but it didn't matter!

It's very easy to get confused by this problem because there is going to be a momentarily slight oscillation about the center of mass. Just as the can is punctured, the pressure that was being exerted by the atmosphere on the now-absent piece of metal doesn't exist anymore... and the force acting on that surface is weaker than that acting on the opposite side of the can. However, the air rushing into the can will eventually hit the opposite wall, which will provide that force (plus a bit extra until everything equals out). These two drawings I made should clear it up:

[image loading]


[image loading]


I assign this problem a difficulty level of 3 out of 5 because it's easy to confuse the physics principles.

Congratulations to Xeofreestyler for being the first to provide the correct answer and provide a reasonable justification. Dr.Dragoon named the problem.

There were a lot of explanations that were either wrong (even among people who chose C) or not backed up. For example: saying 'C because conservation of momentum' isn't necessarily wrong, but is not sufficient in my opinion. There were a few explanations that I am not sure if they are correct or not... although nobody quite used the one that I provided. Feel free to provide further analysis.

Question 3
Momentum and Energy

An open railroad car is rolling without friction in a vertically-falling downpour and an appreciable amount of rain falls into the car and accumulates there. Consider the effect of accumulating rain on the speed, momentum, and kinetic energy of the car.

1) The speed of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) not change

2) The momentum of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) not change

3) And the kinetic energy of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) not change

The rain has now stopped. A drain plug is opened in the bottom of the rolling car allowing the accumulated water to run out. Consider the effects of the draining water on the speed, momentum, and kinetic energy of the rolling car.

4) The speed of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) remain the same

5) The momentum of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) remain the same

6) And the kinetic energy will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) remain the same

Remember to spoiler your answers and explanations, at least on the first page!

*****
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
betaben
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
681 Posts
September 28 2008 03:48 GMT
#2
of the car, or of the car + water?
Salv
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Canada3083 Posts
September 28 2008 03:56 GMT
#3
1a
2b
3b
4b
5a
6c

EZ.
LxRogue
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States1415 Posts
September 28 2008 04:02 GMT
#4
+ Show Spoiler +
1) The speed of the car will
(b) decrease

2) The momentum of the car will
(a) increase

3) And the kinetic energy of the car will
(c) not change

The rain has now stopped. A drain plug is opened in the bottom of the rolling car allowing the accumulated water to run out. Consider the effects of the draining water on the speed, momentum, and kinetic energy of the rolling car.

4) The speed of the car will
(a) increase

5) The momentum of the car will
(b) decrease

6) And the kinetic energy will
(c) remain the same

Assuming the only affect the water has on the train is to change its mass, this is conservation of energy, and you can just use KE = 1/2(m)(v^2). So energy stays the same regardless, velocity is inversely related to mass, and because energy depends on v^2, momentum, L = mv won't be conserved .
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24666 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 04:13:23
September 28 2008 04:09 GMT
#5
On September 28 2008 12:56 Salv wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
1a
2b
3b
4b
5a
6c


EZ.

Spoiler it you fag. If I ever meet you on bnet I'm going to make fun of your mother.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
betaben
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
681 Posts
September 28 2008 04:10 GMT
#6
well, lets see if I get this right...

+ Show Spoiler +
1b)it needs to move accelerate the vertical water, which it does effectively by colliding with it.
2c) the overall momentum of the car + contained water will not change, because the water has no horizontal momentum, and it must be conserved.
3b)for the car+contained water, mv=momentum, unchanging, v decreases. E=mv*v/2 so E decreases.
4a) nothing acts on the car +contained water, so it must stay the same velocity.
5b) for the car + contained water: it loses water, so therefore the momentum stored in that water.
6b) energy in the escaping water is not counted in the car+water, so for the car+water, it decreases.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 04:12:09
September 28 2008 04:11 GMT
#7
On September 28 2008 12:43 micronesia wrote:


There were a lot of explanations that were either wrong (even among people who chose C) or not backed up. For example: saying 'C because conservation of momentum' isn't necessarily wrong, but is not sufficient in my opinion. There were a few explanations that I am not sure if they are correct or not... although nobody quite used the one that I provided. Feel free to provide further analysis.

Question 3
Momentum and Energy

An open railroad car is rolling without friction in a vertically-falling downpour and an appreciable amount of rain falls into the car and accumulates there. Consider the effect of accumulating rain on the speed, momentum, and kinetic energy of the car.

1) The speed of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) not change

+ Show Spoiler +
b) decrease.....if it stayed the same or sped up, it would have more energy than it initially had


2) The momentum of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) not change

+ Show Spoiler +
c) not change...the momentum of the entire system is constant.


3) And the kinetic energy of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) not change

+ Show Spoiler +
b) decrease.....inelastic collision


The rain has now stopped. A drain plug is opened in the bottom of the rolling car allowing the accumulated water to run out. Consider the effects of the draining water on the speed, momentum, and kinetic energy of the rolling car.

4) The speed of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) remain the same

+ Show Spoiler +
c) remain the same....the rain is in the train's frame of reference and just free falling


5) The momentum of the car will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) remain the same

+ Show Spoiler +
b)decrease..less mass same speed


6) And the kinetic energy will
(a) increase
(b) decrease
(c) remain the same

+ Show Spoiler +
decrease...less mass same speed


Remember to spoiler your answers and explanations, at least on the first page!

+ Show Spoiler +
Do you really want chat rooms?
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 04:40:56
September 28 2008 04:19 GMT
#8
+ Show Spoiler +
fuck, i know I got it wrong. Forgot the friction between the car and the rain, which exerts the horizontal force that slows the car down.
betaben
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
681 Posts
September 28 2008 04:19 GMT
#9
fuck I've done it again. right reasoning, right answer, wrong letter.
+ Show Spoiler +

4c) nothing acts on the car +contained water, so it must stay the same velocity.
CDRdude
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States5625 Posts
September 28 2008 04:23 GMT
#10
+ Show Spoiler +

1)b Since the rain is falling vertically, it will have to be accelerated up to the speed of the railroad car
2)b Assuming that we are talking about the momentum of the car, not the car with the rain it's carrying, it will decrease because the speed will decrease. If we're talking about the car with the rain in it, then the momentum will remain the same, due to conservation of momentum
3)b Will decrease for the same reason, assuming that it's only the car under consideratoin, but it will still decrease even if it's the car and the rain, because there's a v^2 in kinetic energy

4)c I'm not sure how to explain this
5)c Again, assuming that we're talking about the car, specifically, and not the car with water in it, since the speed doesn't change, the momentum won't either. If you count the water as part of the car, then the momentum will decrease, because of the mass decrease
6)c if it's just the car under consideration, b if it's the car+water in it.

Am I right?
Force staff is the best item in the game.
Insane Lane
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States397 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 04:34:47
September 28 2008 04:32 GMT
#11
+ Show Spoiler +
1. C The speed will not change because velocity is not affected by mass, though force and acceleration are. The only reason that things slow down when big stuff are put on them is because of the normal force and friction, but this is a frictionless railroad car.

2. A The momentum of the car will increase as the mass increases.

3. A The kinetic energy of the car will increase as the mass increases.

For both of 2 and 3, though, where does the new momentum and KE come from...

4. C Once again, the speed will not change because the velocity is not affected by the mass.

5. B Less mass = less momentum...

6. B Less mass = less kinetic energy... goddamnit I know this doesn't even make any sense...

Geez hmm... i may edit my answer.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24666 Posts
September 28 2008 04:35 GMT
#12
On September 28 2008 13:19 betaben wrote:
fuck I've done it again. right reasoning, right answer, wrong letter.
+ Show Spoiler +

4c) nothing acts on the car +contained water, so it must stay the same velocity.

Go ahead and edit your earlier post if you haven't already so that it's easier for me to see what your answer was when I go through it.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Purind
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Canada3562 Posts
September 28 2008 04:55 GMT
#13
+ Show Spoiler +

I'll go with my gut and likely get tricked again

1) C - Not change. The car is rolling without friction so nothing is slowing it down, and the rain is falling vertically so I don't think it'll cause a deceleration
2) C - I'm not sure if the water counts, so I'm gonna say no it doesn't, and the momentum of the car itself should be the same
3) C - as above

4) C - Same as 1
5) C - Same as 2
6) C - Same as 3

I like my answers, nice and uniform
Trucy Wright is hot
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
September 28 2008 05:10 GMT
#14
Well here's my guess. Likely all wrong...

+ Show Spoiler +

1. c
2. a
3. a

4. c
5. b
6. b
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
September 28 2008 05:11 GMT
#15
btw PM me the right answer? I'm curious, and I might miss your next blog! Seeing as I didn't see any of the ones previous to this apparently.
BottleAbuser
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1888 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 05:29:45
September 28 2008 05:12 GMT
#16
Assuming "car" refers to the car itself and not its contents...

+ Show Spoiler +
1. Decrease. Could see raindrops as moving backwards inside the car until they hit the back end, at which point they exert a backwards force on the car until they have accelerated to the car's velocity (while decelerating the car a tiny amount - energy ain't free).

2. Some of the momentum has transferred to the raindrops (the mass of the car itself is unchanged, but its speed is lower), so it decreased.

3. The car lost kinetic energy to the raindrops while accelerating them.

4. Remain the same - the car won't speed back up; the draining water is moving at the same rate as the car and won't "give back" the speed. This is neglecting the possibility that the drain is not centered on the center of mass of the water, which actually would change the car's velocity but in a way that is unknowable without knowing the location of the drain.

5. Well, the mass of the car isn't changing, nor is its speed. The momentum is the same.

6. Nothing is accelerating or decelerating the car. The kinetic energy is the same.


Now, with the interpretation that "car" refers to both the car and what is currently inside of it:
+ Show Spoiler +

1. Decrease. The newly acquired raindrops are falling straight down, so they are accelerated by the car to the car's velocity. This decreases the speed.

2. Increase. P = mv, and m is increasing while v is decreasing. However, m increases at a linear rate and v decreases at an inverse proportion to m (e = 1/2 * mv^2).

3. Energy ain't going anywhere...

4. Assuming the drain plug is centered on the car's water holding volume's center of mass in the XY plane, the draining water won't accelerate the car in any direction. Or more precisely, the acceleration of the remaining water inside the car towards the drain will be a net 0. Thus, the force exerted by said water on the car is 0, and the car's velocity does not change.

5. Mass is decreasing while v is constant, so the momentum decreases.

6. Same argument; energy decreases.

Compilers are like boyfriends, you miss a period and they go crazy on you.
fight_or_flight
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States3988 Posts
September 28 2008 05:39 GMT
#17
On September 28 2008 14:11 Jonoman92 wrote:
btw PM me the right answer? I'm curious, and I might miss your next blog! Seeing as I didn't see any of the ones previous to this apparently.

same here
Do you really want chat rooms?
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24666 Posts
September 28 2008 05:45 GMT
#18
On September 28 2008 14:11 Jonoman92 wrote:
btw PM me the right answer? I'm curious, and I might miss your next blog! Seeing as I didn't see any of the ones previous to this apparently.

On September 28 2008 14:39 fight_or_flight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2008 14:11 Jonoman92 wrote:
btw PM me the right answer? I'm curious, and I might miss your next blog! Seeing as I didn't see any of the ones previous to this apparently.

same here

I'm glad you guys are eager, but I'm going to have to ask you to just wait until tomorrow or the day after or whenever I post next. I don't want to get into the habit of having to pm 50 people with the advanced answer :p

Also, if you are worried you will miss it, just go to one of my posts and click the 'blog' link to scroll through my most recent blog posts.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
LxRogue
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States1415 Posts
September 28 2008 06:31 GMT
#19
+ Show Spoiler +
Hmm wait, theres no way it could speed up after draining the water, i'm pretty sure about the rest of my answers though.
15vs1
Profile Joined November 2007
64 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-09-28 07:35:03
September 28 2008 07:34 GMT
#20
Maybe it is my bad english but is it possible to ROLL without a friction.
As for the question
+ Show Spoiler +

Some definitions should be made. First when i talk about car i mean car itself and water in the car, under the term kinetic energy of the car i understand energy related with the motion of the center of the mass. And it looks like sentense 'Consider the effect of accumulating rain on ...' implied that all droplet hitting the car will be retained (but it is not clear).

Lets begin with momentum. As far as all droplets will get into the car there will not be any internal forces so the momentum of droplets + momentum of car will not change. And considering that droplets had no horizontal component of momentum (when they were not part of the system) we can conclude that momentum of the car will not change.
The mass of the car will increase and the momentum will not change it means that velocity will decrease.
It is easuy to show that kinetic energy wil also decrease because part of it will transform into internal energy (if collisions with droplets are inelastic) or into the wave energy (if collisions are elastic).
In the second part we assume that all energy was dissipated and there are no waves inside the car otherwise the answer would be dependant on the way of draining.

The velocity will not change because if the plug in the bottom there will not be any additional forces. Momentum and kinetic energy will decrease because part of it will be taken out with water.
1)b
2)c
3)b
4)c
5)b
6)b
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