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Note: This was intended to be more of a provocative rant on feminism. This may be something way out in left field for this website; utterly irrelevent. I would hope not, but who knows. Anyhow, I welcome any discussion on feminism, how young women are portrayed, and the cultures of young women today. I would appreciate thoughtful comments only, though humor is fine.
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Where are the feminists?
I know of no young feminists. Feminism is deviant today. "No, I like men!" "I'm not a nazi!"
Maybe feminism had its place, but no longer. Many people think that now that women have a right to wage slavery and the American Nightmare of unbridled consumerism (and modern romance is just another facet of consumerism - where is the soul?), there is nothing left to work for.
Women's magazines are typically written by women for women. Here are some of the feature headlines of some top women's magazines: Elle - "Lunch Break Sex And other good reasons to live and work together." Cosmopolitan - "What Happened When We Asked Madonna, Cherie and The Queen for their best sex and love secrets." 19 - "SEX, Are You Getting As Good As You Give?" Red - "SO SEXY, Why Men Find Today's 30 Plus Women Irresistable." Company - "The Truth about Boob jobs, The Five Minute Orgasm, Topless Twins." More - "Real Life Sex Diaries/Are You Getting Enough?"
Excellent reading material! Well done!
Women are presented on TV as housewives and as dolls to be admired. Female celebrities modify their bodies and submit their images to computer modification all to appeal to the male gaze. There are now toy stripping poles marketed to young girls, and young women parade around in bikinis selling car washing services to raise money. Young women diet and fast to be like Britney Spears (or whatever woman is in the spotlight at the moment). Develop an eating disorder; you might please a man - if you compensate for the weight loss by enlarging your tits.
Interestingly, bisexuality is now accepted in women (not so much in men, I think). This is potentially a positive step, but is it that we are more sexually open as a society, or that women are objects to be desired by men, and bisexuality is merely a kind of enabling of male desire by women who say "it's ok, we women are objects, and we objectify each other the way you objectify us, and we do all this for your titillation?"
If you had the right moisturizer, he would want to touch you. If you had the right makeup, he would want to kiss you. Shave! You filthy things! Change your bodies lest you be utterly repulsive!
Many older women are proud of their feminism, but young women strike me as docile; afraid to rock the boat for fear that a man wouldn't want them, or for fear that their friends might think them strange. Afraid to rock the boat for fear that they will be seen as uncivilized, unreasonable, irresponsible, or crazy. This is the modern person in general, but Woman in particular.
I want to know where the feminists are.
And of course my ideal woman is a feminist who loves dicks. And she is not ashamed of her body hair or her smell. She doesn't need stupid poison products to be beautiful. She doesn't equate liberation with wage slavery or consumerism. She isn't afraid to be strange or to have strong unconventional opinions. I was in love with such a woman once, and it was nice.
  
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Nice blog, so you like hairy women?
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Sure.
I'll add one thing, related to your question: I am 25. I don't know about you, but when I was exposed to Playboy (admittedly not really a feminist publication) as a youngster - 7 or so - the women tended to have pubic hair (probably not a full bush, but at least SOME hair). And so that was my idea of how a sexy woman should look "down there."
But in general, yes - hairy legs, hairy armpits, hairy crotch..... And no makeup, no deodorant or scents.... Just a sexy natural woman.
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On September 04 2008 13:21 nA.Inky wrote:
But in general, yes - hairy legs, hairy armpits, hairy crotch..... And no makeup, no deodorant or scents.... Just a sexy natural woman.
I think I fit all those categories except the very last one. But six of seven aint' bad. PM me big boy.
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Ancestral, assuming you are being honest in your joke, I applaud you. Go natural.....
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United States22883 Posts
I don't think you're really advocating for feminism. You're advocating for all natural body images, which is a totally different issue and is often applied to men these days also.
You probably won't believe me, but when I'm not speaking in jest I do consider myself a feminist, at least as much of one as any male can be. Equal treatment in all things where there is no significant biological difference and I'm a fan of the strong, independent type like a Maureen Dowd. That said, I don't want to date a slob and I don't think most women want to date male slobs. That doesn't have any impact on my views of feminism, only my views of regular body image and I expect a reasonable, low level of maintenance for both sexes.
What's wrong with a woman wanting to smell nicer or have softer skin?
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On September 04 2008 13:33 nA.Inky wrote:
Ancestral, assuming you are being honest in your joke, I applaud you. Go natural.....
Uhh well since I'd feel bad about lying...
I do shave a lot of stuff for hygiene, but I use organic bar soap and toothpaste, and non-organic fluoride rinse. I don't ever wear anti-perspirant or deoderant. I like to be clean but to be naturally clean .. sorry if I don't meat your hairy standards!
Although here is a picture of me from not too long ago...
...I just don't like hair in dark moist places like my balls and underarms because it's you know, slightly less healthy.
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Jibba, I respect your interpretation of my writing, but I disagree with you. My contention is that many have abandoned feminism because they think that the right to work and the right to shop mean women are now equals in society (a search about feminism on the net will reveal many articles that speak this message - with sexual liberation added in, of course). A lot of my point focuses on body image, but that is only because women are objectified, and equated with an idealized body-type that has particular fashion, cosmetics, hygeine products, etc, applied. (they are reduced to a body) My broader point is that is that women are expected to be docile, complacent, etc. This is why I brought women's publications into my writing, for example.
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United States22883 Posts
I think you would find very few people that consider women to be equals to men in society on those terms. People abandoned feminism because the movement was highly polarized and their effect wore thin on people, plus as women grew older they became less radical. The younger generations were placated a bit more and thus not as hostile as women in the 60s and 70s were, and the general public soon lost interest. This is one of the movements that I've studied and I think the movement's death was a fairly standard one, with elite leadership abandoning their base and so on.
I also don't think body image stereotypes have much of an effect on behavioral stereotypes. I do think they are definitely sexist, but I don't know many people who expect women to be docile or complacent anymore. The objectification may certainly come from the fashion and cosmetics industry, but I think that's in combination with a many other things, since there is no doubt that women can be interested in shoes and nail polish and still be strong and independent.
Also, somehow I doubt we'll get any women posting in here simply due to numbers, which makes this kind of silly.
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On September 04 2008 13:08 nA.Inky wrote:
And of course my ideal woman is a feminist who loves dicks. And she is not ashamed of her body hair or her smell.
I wish I didn't find this gross but I do.
Anyways, it isn't just women who have grown complacent with being told who they are.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Hairy women should be dragged by said hair and shot in the streets where they are left to rot. Most disguisting shit I have ever seen. Patriarchal? Absolutely.. but it's one of the sexist constructs I will never disagree with. Fuck I shave my own balls.. women are more attractive than men and should treat themselves as such.
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For some reason, when I think of the word "feminism," I picture extremely sexist females who are completely biased in favor of females.
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What is pretty awesome is how you can quote retard magazines out of context and dig up some psuedo-intellectual dribble about feminism. Why don't you quote PCGamer, IGN, or some other gaming magazine with a tagline "Where is the masculinity"?
Stupid shit exists because people buy into stupid shit. What about the countless female scientists that are publishing articles in journals, or the abundant amount of female professionals? Just like any other social group, women tend to vary, I think they are fine the way they are.
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On September 04 2008 13:08 nA.Inky wrote:
She doesn't equate liberation with wage slavery or consumerism.
hahahahhahaha, so you're one of those. TYPICAL
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Feminism had a good premise and a decent start, but as with most things it was infiltrated by clueless drones with clueless agendas and driven to ridiculous proportions. Many women now are in reactionary mode against feminism's basics (instead of it's excesses, because that's just how brilliant us human beings are in these situations...) and that now is being carried too far. I think a general point you were getting at is very true, of course: the fact that feminists generally said "I don't need a man!" and women now tend to say "I want a man!" You could also consider it, at least in some respect, to be a realization that independence wasn't all it was cracked up to be (the women realized the men's lives were as shitty as they had been claiming) and a desire toward a more dependent role.
Conversely, to be a little subversive and obtuse, one could say that the magazines and TV etc. are portraying those aspects in a desperate attempt to trap women into the same box-like complacency they are able to trap men (though it is much easier to trap, so they spend much more time and effort on the women). If they can keep the women running from place to place working and buying and grinding on other women, they can keep them from realizing how broken the system is and from doing anything about it. God the rulers are just incredibly astute.
Since the previous reasonings don't seem quite good enough, here's another: women have finally become aware of what they really really want and have started to tell us what they want, what they really really want (to zigga zig ah) and the magazines, tv, etc. are simply catering to a market spurred up by confident women who know and demand what they want.
Bleh, I honestly can't sing a requiem for feminism (except for "na na na na, hey hey hey, good bye"), but I certainly understand your concerns. The main tenant of feminism was independence, and independence requires thought. As the conduct on the average female becomes reactionary to feminism, it only makes sense that they will eschew independence and thought as well. What you seem to be looking for in a women requires a lot of independence, therefore thought, and even in the occurrence of those two things will be most likely rare (at least in the case of a direct match). I would just like to point out that the likelihood of a "feminist" meeting your criteria for a mate would be very slim. Feminists almost all wanted to become wage slaves on equal footing with men, very few had any desire to aspire to actual independence since those that did went ahead and marched that path on their own.
Anyway, enough rambling for now I guess, and btw hi! Not sure if you remember me but I seem to remember having some pretty lengthy and engaging conversations with you back in the day on b.net.
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On September 04 2008 14:48 BottleAbuser wrote:
For some reason, when I think of the word "feminism," I picture extremely sexist females who are completely biased in favor of females.
haha, me too lol
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
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I'm sure there could be endless discussion about this topic, but just to be concise, I agree with feminism in principle, but I think that people who identify themselves feminists are generally.........incompatible with my views.
As far as the OP, what is wrong with makeup, and the numerous other things you listed? I really don't care what other people do, but personally, I probably wouldn't be interested in any girl who didn't put some effort to look good for me.
Why should I abandon what I like for "feminist" reasons. If it comes at my expense (and not hers), then its not really fair or equal, is it? And why should she not have to do anything for me, but I still have to do things for her (such as give emotional support, listen to her talk, etc)? And don't say you won't have to do things for women, because they are women and my life experience tells me otherwise.
I don't see why people get so hung up about these things. Why would you even get involved with someone if there wasn't a give-and-take type of thing going on, instead of being completely mutual. You shave, cook, and do x, y, and z, and in return, I will do a, b, and c. Its pretty simple, and if its not working for you then just leave.
As far as equal rights in other areas, such as work environments, I feel very strongly that there needs to be equality. When dealing with money, you are basically dealing with people's lives and quality of life. If someone is qualified, pay them for what they are qualified for. If a woman can't lift a certain weight (and thats the job description), she shouldn't get payed as much as a man however. You are basically discriminating against the company in that case. Let business be business. Trust me business people only see the bottom line. The main problem is coworkers not getting along with a woman, which I agree is a problem.
I'm a white male, but I haven't done anything wrong to anyone and don't owe them anything. If a feminist tells me I've done something wrong, I'm sorry but thats BS and just manipulative propaganda. However, the worst part is, that they make women think that they have a special entitlement. That in turn causes unnecessary friction between men and women, making both unhappy, imo.
So my main point is this: cultural differences between how men and women treat each other are generally ok, monetary and education differences are generally bad. Russian women are a good role model. Generally highly educated, business oriented, and attractive. Meh, not very consice..
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Hey Maar! I do remember you - not well, but somewhat. I'm TRYING to remember that we discussed religion, among other things. Good to see you again 
I liked your post here. I resonate with your 2nd paragraph thoughts (power defining what women should be in consumerist terms). I also like that you bring out how feminism has often been interpreted as the desire to have the same kind of lives men have, and how that can be greatly dissatisfying (wage slavery sucks, consumerism is empty).
To Travis and Bottle: One reason I wanted to discuss feminism here is precisely because the term has been poisoned. Your reactions are evidence of that. Feminists are thought of as lesbians, women who hate men, women who just want to bitch about everything, etc. Radical folks in general are often perceived negatively, especially if they are more bold in their criticism. People often react negatively to war protesters, for example. But I see feminism as a continuous project that simply seeks equal power and respect for women. The trick is that power is more complex than violence. Power exists in ideas. And so when men and powerful groups (that consist even of women) create the image of the ideal woman, it is a kind of power over women. Women in this society often feel that if they don't do x y and z, they aren't good women. My point is not that women should never wear makeup or enjoy fashion, but that they should fight the forces that tell them they ought to embrace those things for the sake of their womanhood.
This also is to address Fight or Flight; I'm not saying relationships should be one sided. I'm not saying women shouldn't look attractive or that you shouldn't desire an attractive woman. I'm saying that the way society frames the ideal woman in terms of superficial beauty is a form of power over women that has negative effects (seen in low self-esteem, eating disorders, etc - and even beautiful women suffer because of this). I have a very open idea of what women can be, but my feeling is that society as it is now is telling women that their essential nature is to be pretty and subservient. It's been worse in the past, and some people here have hinted that because there have been improvements, feminism is a silly hangover from the past, but I disagree. This is an incredibly conservative attitude that if adopted on a large scale would result in problems never being addressed.
Why is it that female TV journalists seem to have to be beautiful? Why is it that women in movies/cartoons/stories are so often in the background; an object to be fought over or saved? Why is it that beauty is equated with expensive and often poisonous products? Why is it that beauty is such a central part of being a woman, when it is not for men?
Again, it's a somewhat subtle thing to talk about, because I'm not against beautiful journalists, and I'm not saying that women should never be rescued, or that makeup and fashion are universally evil. I'm not saying a woman's beauty should not be appreciated. But the way society imposes this stuff on women is problematic the same way it is problematic to say men should always be leaders, should always be competitive, bold, dominant, money making machines, etc.
Mahnini: you consistently address me in a very disrespectful way. I allow all words in my blogs, but if you expect me to respond to you, you will have to address me respectfully. I've shown you nothing but respect. I welcome critical comments, but I have no time for blatant hostility.
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And Jibba: good post. As to female posters here, I know there are very few. I wasn't putting this up because I expected women to post. I don't think feminism is a topic that should be confined just to women. It is something I care about, and I am generally disappointed and pissed off at how I see women represented in the media and elsewhere. So I wanted to start a discussion on it here, among men, and see what others thought.
Part of why its an important issue to me is that there are few women I come across who are at all my type..... I don't like typical girly girls. I like strong, unconventional women. But it is my contention that power tends to shape women into complacent people who express themselves through consumption and do not think or dream big. This is largely true of men, and I address this elsewhere, but I think feminism can and should address this stuff in women.
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