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It's as legit as a 2 hatch hydra break. I lost to one of those today.
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If it was done without regard for the opponent's build (as mostly done in BGH), I would say it's cheese. But if it's done to, for instance, crush T/P FE, then I'd say it's a nice tactical move. *shrugs* I classify cheese by intent.
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IMO a cheese is when its scouted you're basically screwed, like say proxy or 5pool, or just building in their base.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Uhh no. Cheesing would be some gay shit like 4/5/6 pool. 3 hatch lings is like the same as 3 hatch hydras or some shit like that. If you can't stop lings 5 minutes into the game, you don't deserve to win.
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3 hatch speedlings is easily scoutable and can be a good beginning to a macro heavy fast expanding zerg. It is a powerful way of taking map control, and since it isn't "all in" I don't think it's cheese. (I could be wrong about my strategic assessments, I rarely ever do this)
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United States24611 Posts
It's a viable build, and strong vs people who don't know how to respond.
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On July 05 2008 13:00 inlagdsil wrote:
3 hatch speedlings is easily scoutable and can be a good beginning to a macro heavy fast expanding zerg. It is a powerful way of taking map control, and since it isn't "all in" I don't think it's cheese. (I could be wrong about my strategic assessments, I rarely ever do this)
Nah you're pretty much right. With 3 hatch lings you can pretty much contain the protoss for a limited time, which gives you a big enough window to lay down a few expansions.
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Saying 3 hatch speedling is cheese is like saying anything other than standard play is cheese. IMO, the only cheese builds are proxy rushes and 4/5 pools.
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Calgary25969 Posts
Shut the fuck up and scout.
JESUS CHRIST.
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I don't consider cheese a bad thing.. it's just a way to end the game early, which is perfectly legitimate, and which 3 hatch ling quallifies as. Maybe i should rethink that but i won't just now
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On July 05 2008 13:23 Chill wrote:
Shut the fuck up and scout.
JESUS CHRIST.
normally i would retort that i was just talking about the classification , not an actual game ( seeing as how i play z and rather tend to stray from tvz / pvz) or that ,in this hypothetical game, even if i did scout, it wouldn't debunk the question if it was a cheese of not.
but fuck, what chance do i have vs chill ;_;
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3 hatch speedlings shouldn't be considered "cheese" imo, but it is a pretty poor build because it wont win vs many average-above average players. And if it is scouted, it isn't all-in, but it would be hard to come back from an unsucessful 3hatch ling attack against a player of similar or better skill
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its fine...................................... as long as you are able to scout it.
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I thought this thread was going to be about various types of edible cheese 
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United States24611 Posts
On July 05 2008 13:30 HeavOnEarth wrote:
but fuck, what chance do i have vs chill ;_; Just acknowledge the fact that he is usually right on these sorts of topics, but often overreacts.
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I think Chill's point is that "classifying" builds as cheese is monumentally pointless and psychologically self-defeating. It doesn't matter if the build that beat you can be called "cheese" or not according to a jury of your peers. Scout it and beat it or shut up.
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United States24611 Posts
On July 05 2008 15:07 rgfdxm wrote:
It doesn't matter if the build that beat you can be called "cheese" or not according to a jury of your peers. Scout it and beat it or shut up.
Definitely a matter of opinion open to interpretation. I refuse to argue that in this silly blog though, so pm me if you want my opinion.
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there is no "cheese"
you take certain risks by going different builds, and other builds are there to exploit them
rock paper scissors factor
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imo people have their own definitions of cheese. I played a zerg who called my 9/10 non proxy cheese.
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United States10774 Posts
all-in = cheese?
It definitely is an all-in, like zulu said.
If you consider all-ins cheese then I guess it is
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It tries to end the game before it gets long and interesting and complicated and as highly skill oriented as it can get, and in that sense i think it's cheesey, but there's nothing wrong with it
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well if you're gay and either make a sunk or wall ramp with 2 lings to deny scouting then I would call it an all-in and therefore a cheese. But who cares, it's just part of the game. I know I lose to it all the time but only because of my chobo building placement for the most part.
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The concept of "cheese" is dumb. Everything is scoutable and counterable.
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fair definition of cheese: an attack that deals large damage, exploiting a simple
weakness (detect, splash, bugs, etc) , using cheap low-skill units, which usually wins the game. also a cheese is often unusual or else everyone expects and defends for it.
eg:
a few dts against a terran with no scanner/acad/mines/vessel can win the game. the
attack required no skill, and did not show that the attacker is necessarily a
better player, yet he will win.
cheese.
same again with a quick 2 lurk drop. its GG yet the zerg doesn't have to do
anything, except drop the lurks and burrow.
any player who wins with less resources, less units, less apm, has probably cheesed and may not win overall if many games are played.
so yeah, 3 hat ling to me is just a normal attack. no way it could be a cheese.
and i disagree with the idea of "all-in = cheese".
they are different words, and have different meanings.
cheese is low-cost and doesn't lose the game when it fails.
all-in is high risk and high cost - by definition if the all-in fails, you will very likely lose the game.
the 3hat ling is more of an all-in than a cheese to me, but i think it's neither.
On July 05 2008 19:14 HeadBangaa wrote:
The concept of "cheese" is dumb. Everything is scoutable and counterable.
to play sc and win, you must play to defend against only the most common attacks. you cannot scout and defend against every possible strategy. so long as the fog of war remains, the concept of cheese exists.
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This is a stupid argument since there's no proper definition for cheese.
(Apart from this one of course)
-noun
1. the curd of milk separated from the whey and prepared in many ways as a food.
2. a definite mass of this substance, often in the shape of a wheel or cylinder.
3. something of similar shape or consistency, as a mass of pomace in cider-making.
4. Informal. partly digested milk curds sometimes spit up by infants.
5. cheeses, any of several mallows, esp. Malva neglecta, a sprawling,weedy plant having small lavender or white flowers and round, flat, segmented fruits thought to resemble little wheels of cheese.
6. Slang: Vulgar. smegma.
7. Metalworking.
a. a transverse section cut from an ingot, as for making into a tire.
b. an ingot or billet made into a convex, circular form by blows at the ends.
8. a low curtsy.
–verb (used without object)
9. Informal. (of infants) to spit up partly digested milk curds.
–verb (used with object)
10. Metalworking. to forge (an ingot or billet) into a cheese.
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On July 05 2008 20:17 qet wrote:
eg:
a few dts against a terran with no scanner/acad/mines/vessel can win the game. the
attack required no skill, and did not show that the attacker is necessarily a
better player, yet he will win.
cheese.
Well, if he scouted it he actually did a good job. Had a progamer done this you'd call it "great timing" or "great game sense". It's the fault of the Terran not to have mines, scan or turrets up in time.
I mean SC still has a small element of strategy in it, and when you see your enemy has a weakness you try to exploit it ASAP. I don't see why this should mean something like this takes no skill, just because you don't need 400 APM to pull it off.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
I played a guy who went 2 hatch speedlings with like 5 drones yesterday. He had 0 drones @ his nat and was pumping pure zerglings until I had two control groups of marines and firebats and half a dozen medics -.-; (at which point i just rolled him over)
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NOOO SUCH THING ASSSSSS CHEEEEESE
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United States42155 Posts
It's scoutable, preventable and counterable. Losing to it is the mistake of the loser rather than a luck dependent and unfair build. Cheese relies upon luck (such as being scouted last) and does not rely on the mistake of the cheesed. Whereas seeing somebody has left themselves open to a certain type of attack and then moving in and taking the kill (although just as allin if it fails) is a calculated and effective strategy. It's the difference between proxy 9/9 PvZ hoping that they 12 hatch 11 pool and cutting probes for masszee after a FE opening PvZ having scouted that they're teching, powerdroning and on 3 base.
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its total fucking cheese, what can you do if it fails? not alot.
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United States42155 Posts
Oh, and allin is not high risk. Yesterday I cut probes and delayed tech to proxy gate and massgoon Artosis because I knew he was doing a risky FE build and I knew that if I got 4 goons in the right place at the right time I could execute him. If I had failed I'd be on 1 base vs 2 without robo and with a low probe count. But it was never going to fail. Before I decided to do it I had a good read (he'd done the same build the game before), I had confirmed it with scouting (I saw the cc being made) and I knew I had the micro and position to break a bunker and tank with 4 goons.
It was allin and it was rather lame. But his strategy was vulnerable and greedy and I knew when I saw it that I could take the win and there was nothing he could do. To do anything other than "cheese" in that situation would be retarded. When faced with a choice between winning and not winning cheese doesn't come into it.
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United States42155 Posts
On July 06 2008 01:39 Hypnosis wrote:
its total fucking cheese, what can you do if it fails? not alot.
Reaver harass PvP is cheese. When your shuttle gets shot down you're pretty much fucked. See BeSt vs Much on Hwarangdo. Therefore reaver harass is so risky it's allin and is therefore cheese.
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On July 05 2008 20:17 qet wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2008 19:14 HeadBangaa wrote:
The concept of "cheese" is dumb. Everything is scoutable and counterable. to play sc and win, you must play to defend against only the most common attacks. you cannot scout and defend against every possible strategy. so long as the fog of war remains, the concept of cheese exists.
Uhh, yes, you can scout and defend against every possible strategy.
If you're scouting a Protoss and you see only 1 pylon in his base several minutes in, you can assume proxy.
If you scout a Zerg a minute in and he's got only 5 drones, you also know lings are arriving early.
If you scout Terran PvT and he takes gas very late, there might be another barracks on the map.
Blindly assuming that your opponent is going to be conventional is a compensation for your inability to infer the status of the game at any given time. Exploiting this weakness is an exertion of higher skill by the opponent, or a stroke of luck (sure luck happens; I random-to-4pool tons). But there's no need for the derogatory "cheese" label.
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Harass is cheese? o_O
I see there are more opinions on what is cheese than I thought. :> It's a useless debate. My view is that ONLY very fast rushes are cheese. Like: proxy gate/rax, bunker rush, sunken rush, 4-6 pool, SCV rush, cannon rush, and to a certain extent also manner pylon or gas steal.
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United States42155 Posts
On July 06 2008 02:06 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Harass is cheese? o_O
I see there are more opinions on what is cheese than I thought. :> It's a useless debate. My view is that ONLY very fast rushes are cheese. Like: proxy gate/rax, bunker rush, sunken rush, 4-6 pool, SCV rush, cannon rush, and to a certain extent also manner pylon or gas steal.
My view is the same. My point about harass was that if risk makes something cheese then reaver harass is up there with 4 pool.
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I don't see why people keep saying "this build never works" or "rarely works" against good players, jaedong did a 3 hatch zergling all in against upmagic in the last OSL for in their last game, and completely destroyed up's FE build.
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8748 Posts
i think cheese is purposefully limiting the skills needed to play the game. definitions saying cheese is playing risky, being "all-in" or relying on opponent not scouting or not thinking, are all bad imo because they can all be used for "normal" games as well. so cheese, to me, is doing a strat that makes the majority of skills irrelevant. it's an attempt at equalizing. it's simplifying and reducing.
so whether an opponent is cheesing definitely depends on their intent, but generally 3hat ling with no econ or other tech is cheese
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On July 06 2008 03:39 Steelflight-Rx wrote:
I don't see why people keep saying "this build never works" or "rarely works" against good players, jaedong did a 3 hatch zergling all in against upmagic in the last OSL for in their last game, and completely destroyed up's FE build.
That was a slightly different circumstance though, as rather than doing the usual run-in-and-surround-the-wall, he mined the mineral patches (it was the RoV spawn on Monghwan) and ran behind him. The factor of being able to do this made the strategy a lot more effective and a lot less of a cheese, as it was nothing more than a calculated strategy.
I noticed I threw the word cheese around; in some opinions, a cheese strategy is something that's guaranteed to work, or at least has a very large chance of working, if the opponent doesn't scout it properly. This is a pretty broad spectrum; if Protoss doesn't scout 3hatch mutas and therefore has no cannons at his main, he's pretty screwed, but 3hatch mutas are definitely not cheese :p
Like was posted before, I believe cheese is something that lowers the skill requirement in an attempt to end the game quickly, ie; proxy dark templars or 5pool.
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Very very probably already mentioned but there is a thread about building placements and even screenshots when Protoss goes FE.
3 things
1) Even pros pull of some of their Probes for good, even when not attacked and replace them with Zealots over time
2) If I can remember correctly in general Forge blocks of for good any running by on the left side of it when placed close enough to cliff/etc
3) ... just as Gate does on its right side
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i voted no, all depends on the game situation as to how risky it is. PM me for details, id be glad to debate/share.
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Calgary25969 Posts
On July 06 2008 03:39 Steelflight-Rx wrote:
I don't see why people keep saying "this build never works" or "rarely works" against good players, jaedong did a 3 hatch zergling all in against upmagic in the last OSL for in their last game, and completely destroyed up's FE build.
"I don't get why people say something rarely works, here's a single example of it working"
WHAT?
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EPT
