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Cheese Classification

Blogs > HeavOnEarth
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HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-05 04:38:56
July 05 2008 03:55 GMT
#1
<rant>
The general state of my well being rests upon your shoulders !

To settle an argument with a "friend" of mine

Is 3hatch ling speed (with only 10 drones left over) a cheese?

[image loading]

Poll: 3hatch speedlingz = ebil cheese?
(Vote): no fucking shit!(cheese)
(Vote): uhh no..(give reason)

;edit; kay fuck my general well -being
as i ranted to shallow eariler fuck all of ye'!- you all can fucking jump and fucking die in a flaming fucking pit with fucking flames and fucking spikes.
- No, ..actually, fucking , spiky dildoes SHOVED up your asses
NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE FUCKING PITY VOTE OMFG.
*cries in corner in fetal position

ok nevermind teh new zvt replay on tl makes meh happeh again
yey
for zvt game spoiler+ Show Spoiler +
ok nevermind the z fucking lost due to imba terran skeelz

;edit2;
OMG YAY 2 PITY VOTES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
<end rant>

oh and im just kidding about the.. dying.. in horrific/traumatizing way
just wanted to emphasis meh disappointment
tl rox mah sox~

*
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
thunk
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States6233 Posts
July 05 2008 03:57 GMT
#2
It's as legit as a 2 hatch hydra break. I lost to one of those today.
Every time Jung Myung Hoon builds a vulture, two probes die. || My post count was a palindrome and I was never posting again.
Southlight
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States11767 Posts
July 05 2008 03:58 GMT
#3
If it was done without regard for the opponent's build (as mostly done in BGH), I would say it's cheese. But if it's done to, for instance, crush T/P FE, then I'd say it's a nice tactical move. *shrugs* I classify cheese by intent.
oraoraoraoraoraoraoraora
Monokeros
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States2493 Posts
July 05 2008 03:58 GMT
#4
IMO a cheese is when its scouted you're basically screwed, like say proxy or 5pool, or just building in their base.
Keep the Dream Alive twitch.tv/monokerros
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
July 05 2008 03:59 GMT
#5
Uhh no. Cheesing would be some gay shit like 4/5/6 pool. 3 hatch lings is like the same as 3 hatch hydras or some shit like that. If you can't stop lings 5 minutes into the game, you don't deserve to win.
God Bless
inlagdsil
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada957 Posts
July 05 2008 04:00 GMT
#6
3 hatch speedlings is easily scoutable and can be a good beginning to a macro heavy fast expanding zerg. It is a powerful way of taking map control, and since it isn't "all in" I don't think it's cheese. (I could be wrong about my strategic assessments, I rarely ever do this)
There is nothing cuter than a zergling when it has just started taking crack
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24698 Posts
July 05 2008 04:02 GMT
#7
It's a viable build, and strong vs people who don't know how to respond.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Krohm
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Canada1857 Posts
July 05 2008 04:13 GMT
#8
On July 05 2008 13:00 inlagdsil wrote:
3 hatch speedlings is easily scoutable and can be a good beginning to a macro heavy fast expanding zerg. It is a powerful way of taking map control, and since it isn't "all in" I don't think it's cheese. (I could be wrong about my strategic assessments, I rarely ever do this)

Nah you're pretty much right. With 3 hatch lings you can pretty much contain the protoss for a limited time, which gives you a big enough window to lay down a few expansions.
Not bad for a cat toy.
B1nary
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada1267 Posts
July 05 2008 04:18 GMT
#9
Saying 3 hatch speedling is cheese is like saying anything other than standard play is cheese. IMO, the only cheese builds are proxy rushes and 4/5 pools.
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25981 Posts
July 05 2008 04:23 GMT
#10
Shut the fuck up and scout.

JESUS CHRIST.
Moderator
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
July 05 2008 04:27 GMT
#11
I don't consider cheese a bad thing.. it's just a way to end the game early, which is perfectly legitimate, and which 3 hatch ling quallifies as. Maybe i should rethink that but i won't just now
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-05 04:30:33
July 05 2008 04:30 GMT
#12
On July 05 2008 13:23 Chill wrote:
Shut the fuck up and scout.

JESUS CHRIST.


normally i would retort that i was just talking about the classification , not an actual game ( seeing as how i play z and rather tend to stray from tvz / pvz) or that ,in this hypothetical game, even if i did scout, it wouldn't debunk the question if it was a cheese of not.

but fuck, what chance do i have vs chill ;_;
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
ash.cure
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States29 Posts
July 05 2008 04:54 GMT
#13
3 hatch speedlings shouldn't be considered "cheese" imo, but it is a pretty poor build because it wont win vs many average-above average players. And if it is scouted, it isn't all-in, but it would be hard to come back from an unsucessful 3hatch ling attack against a player of similar or better skill
Raithed
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
China7078 Posts
July 05 2008 04:54 GMT
#14
its fine...................................... as long as you are able to scout it.
Equinox_kr
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States7395 Posts
July 05 2008 05:35 GMT
#15
I thought this thread was going to be about various types of edible cheese
^-^
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24698 Posts
July 05 2008 05:36 GMT
#16
On July 05 2008 13:30 HeavOnEarth wrote:
but fuck, what chance do i have vs chill ;_;
Just acknowledge the fact that he is usually right on these sorts of topics, but often overreacts.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
July 05 2008 06:04 GMT
#17
it's an all-in sure
rgfdxm
Profile Joined December 2006
United States239 Posts
July 05 2008 06:07 GMT
#18
I think Chill's point is that "classifying" builds as cheese is monumentally pointless and psychologically self-defeating. It doesn't matter if the build that beat you can be called "cheese" or not according to a jury of your peers. Scout it and beat it or shut up.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24698 Posts
July 05 2008 06:12 GMT
#19
On July 05 2008 15:07 rgfdxm wrote:
It doesn't matter if the build that beat you can be called "cheese" or not according to a jury of your peers. Scout it and beat it or shut up.

Definitely a matter of opinion open to interpretation. I refuse to argue that in this silly blog though, so pm me if you want my opinion.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Yogurt
Profile Blog Joined June 2005
United States4258 Posts
July 05 2008 06:29 GMT
#20
there is no "cheese"

you take certain risks by going different builds, and other builds are there to exploit them

rock paper scissors factor
ok dont not so good something is something ok ok ok gogogo
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11552 Posts
July 05 2008 06:46 GMT
#21
imo people have their own definitions of cheese. I played a zerg who called my 9/10 non proxy cheese.
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
July 05 2008 07:22 GMT
#22
all-in = cheese?
It definitely is an all-in, like zulu said.
If you consider all-ins cheese then I guess it is
zobz
Profile Joined November 2005
Canada2175 Posts
July 05 2008 07:42 GMT
#23
It tries to end the game before it gets long and interesting and complicated and as highly skill oriented as it can get, and in that sense i think it's cheesey, but there's nothing wrong with it
"That's not gonna be good for business." "That's not gonna be good for anybody."
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9104 Posts
July 05 2008 08:22 GMT
#24
well if you're gay and either make a sunk or wall ramp with 2 lings to deny scouting then I would call it an all-in and therefore a cheese. But who cares, it's just part of the game. I know I lose to it all the time but only because of my chobo building placement for the most part.
Xiberia
Profile Joined September 2007
Sweden634 Posts
July 05 2008 09:02 GMT
#25
i agree
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
July 05 2008 10:14 GMT
#26
The concept of "cheese" is dumb. Everything is scoutable and counterable.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
qet
Profile Joined May 2007
Australia244 Posts
July 05 2008 11:17 GMT
#27
fair definition of cheese: an attack that deals large damage, exploiting a simple

weakness (detect, splash, bugs, etc) , using cheap low-skill units, which usually wins the game. also a cheese is often unusual or else everyone expects and defends for it.

eg:
a few dts against a terran with no scanner/acad/mines/vessel can win the game. the

attack required no skill, and did not show that the attacker is necessarily a

better player, yet he will win.
cheese.

same again with a quick 2 lurk drop. its GG yet the zerg doesn't have to do

anything, except drop the lurks and burrow.

any player who wins with less resources, less units, less apm, has probably cheesed and may not win overall if many games are played.

so yeah, 3 hat ling to me is just a normal attack. no way it could be a cheese.

and i disagree with the idea of "all-in = cheese".
they are different words, and have different meanings.

cheese is low-cost and doesn't lose the game when it fails.

all-in is high risk and high cost - by definition if the all-in fails, you will very likely lose the game.

the 3hat ling is more of an all-in than a cheese to me, but i think it's neither.



On July 05 2008 19:14 HeadBangaa wrote:
The concept of "cheese" is dumb. Everything is scoutable and counterable.


to play sc and win, you must play to defend against only the most common attacks. you cannot scout and defend against every possible strategy. so long as the fog of war remains, the concept of cheese exists.

Nytefish
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United Kingdom4282 Posts
July 05 2008 11:44 GMT
#28
This is a stupid argument since there's no proper definition for cheese.

(Apart from this one of course)
-noun
1. the curd of milk separated from the whey and prepared in many ways as a food.
2. a definite mass of this substance, often in the shape of a wheel or cylinder.
3. something of similar shape or consistency, as a mass of pomace in cider-making.
4. Informal. partly digested milk curds sometimes spit up by infants.
5. cheeses, any of several mallows, esp. Malva neglecta, a sprawling,weedy plant having small lavender or white flowers and round, flat, segmented fruits thought to resemble little wheels of cheese.
6. Slang: Vulgar. smegma.
7. Metalworking.
a. a transverse section cut from an ingot, as for making into a tire.
b. an ingot or billet made into a convex, circular form by blows at the ends.
8. a low curtsy.
–verb (used without object)
9. Informal. (of infants) to spit up partly digested milk curds.
–verb (used with object)
10. Metalworking. to forge (an ingot or billet) into a cheese.
No I'm never serious.
0xDEADBEEF
Profile Joined September 2007
Germany1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-05 12:17:59
July 05 2008 12:16 GMT
#29
On July 05 2008 20:17 qet wrote:
eg:
a few dts against a terran with no scanner/acad/mines/vessel can win the game. the

attack required no skill, and did not show that the attacker is necessarily a

better player, yet he will win.
cheese.


Well, if he scouted it he actually did a good job. Had a progamer done this you'd call it "great timing" or "great game sense". It's the fault of the Terran not to have mines, scan or turrets up in time.
I mean SC still has a small element of strategy in it, and when you see your enemy has a weakness you try to exploit it ASAP. I don't see why this should mean something like this takes no skill, just because you don't need 400 APM to pull it off.
infinity21 *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada6683 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-05 13:18:02
July 05 2008 13:17 GMT
#30
I played a guy who went 2 hatch speedlings with like 5 drones yesterday. He had 0 drones @ his nat and was pumping pure zerglings until I had two control groups of marines and firebats and half a dozen medics -.-; (at which point i just rolled him over)
Official Entusman #21
MiniRoman
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Canada3953 Posts
July 05 2008 16:21 GMT
#31
NOOO SUCH THING ASSSSSS CHEEEEESE
Nak Allstar.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42864 Posts
July 05 2008 16:36 GMT
#32
It's scoutable, preventable and counterable. Losing to it is the mistake of the loser rather than a luck dependent and unfair build. Cheese relies upon luck (such as being scouted last) and does not rely on the mistake of the cheesed. Whereas seeing somebody has left themselves open to a certain type of attack and then moving in and taking the kill (although just as allin if it fails) is a calculated and effective strategy. It's the difference between proxy 9/9 PvZ hoping that they 12 hatch 11 pool and cutting probes for masszee after a FE opening PvZ having scouted that they're teching, powerdroning and on 3 base.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Hypnosis
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States2061 Posts
July 05 2008 16:39 GMT
#33
its total fucking cheese, what can you do if it fails? not alot.
Science without religion is lame, Religion without science is blind
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42864 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-05 16:42:53
July 05 2008 16:40 GMT
#34
Oh, and allin is not high risk. Yesterday I cut probes and delayed tech to proxy gate and massgoon Artosis because I knew he was doing a risky FE build and I knew that if I got 4 goons in the right place at the right time I could execute him. If I had failed I'd be on 1 base vs 2 without robo and with a low probe count. But it was never going to fail. Before I decided to do it I had a good read (he'd done the same build the game before), I had confirmed it with scouting (I saw the cc being made) and I knew I had the micro and position to break a bunker and tank with 4 goons.

It was allin and it was rather lame. But his strategy was vulnerable and greedy and I knew when I saw it that I could take the win and there was nothing he could do. To do anything other than "cheese" in that situation would be retarded. When faced with a choice between winning and not winning cheese doesn't come into it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42864 Posts
July 05 2008 16:44 GMT
#35
On July 06 2008 01:39 Hypnosis wrote:
its total fucking cheese, what can you do if it fails? not alot.

Reaver harass PvP is cheese. When your shuttle gets shot down you're pretty much fucked. See BeSt vs Much on Hwarangdo. Therefore reaver harass is so risky it's allin and is therefore cheese.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
HeadBangaa
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States6512 Posts
July 05 2008 17:03 GMT
#36
On July 05 2008 20:17 qet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 05 2008 19:14 HeadBangaa wrote:
The concept of "cheese" is dumb. Everything is scoutable and counterable.


to play sc and win, you must play to defend against only the most common attacks. you cannot scout and defend against every possible strategy. so long as the fog of war remains, the concept of cheese exists.

Uhh, yes, you can scout and defend against every possible strategy.

If you're scouting a Protoss and you see only 1 pylon in his base several minutes in, you can assume proxy.
If you scout a Zerg a minute in and he's got only 5 drones, you also know lings are arriving early.
If you scout Terran PvT and he takes gas very late, there might be another barracks on the map.

Blindly assuming that your opponent is going to be conventional is a compensation for your inability to infer the status of the game at any given time. Exploiting this weakness is an exertion of higher skill by the opponent, or a stroke of luck (sure luck happens; I random-to-4pool tons). But there's no need for the derogatory "cheese" label.
People who fail to distinguish Socratic Method from malicious trolling are sadly stupid and not worth a response.
0xDEADBEEF
Profile Joined September 2007
Germany1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-07-05 17:14:38
July 05 2008 17:06 GMT
#37
Harass is cheese? o_O
I see there are more opinions on what is cheese than I thought. :> It's a useless debate. My view is that ONLY very fast rushes are cheese. Like: proxy gate/rax, bunker rush, sunken rush, 4-6 pool, SCV rush, cannon rush, and to a certain extent also manner pylon or gas steal.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42864 Posts
July 05 2008 17:25 GMT
#38
On July 06 2008 02:06 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
Harass is cheese? o_O
I see there are more opinions on what is cheese than I thought. :> It's a useless debate. My view is that ONLY very fast rushes are cheese. Like: proxy gate/rax, bunker rush, sunken rush, 4-6 pool, SCV rush, cannon rush, and to a certain extent also manner pylon or gas steal.

My view is the same. My point about harass was that if risk makes something cheese then reaver harass is up there with 4 pool.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Steelflight-Rx
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States1389 Posts
July 05 2008 18:39 GMT
#39
I don't see why people keep saying "this build never works" or "rarely works" against good players, jaedong did a 3 hatch zergling all in against upmagic in the last OSL for in their last game, and completely destroyed up's FE build.
yubee wrote: you know? it's a great night you should all smile no matter what harddships, because grass grows and the sky is blue and it's a good life.
NonY
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
8748 Posts
July 05 2008 18:52 GMT
#40
i think cheese is purposefully limiting the skills needed to play the game. definitions saying cheese is playing risky, being "all-in" or relying on opponent not scouting or not thinking, are all bad imo because they can all be used for "normal" games as well. so cheese, to me, is doing a strat that makes the majority of skills irrelevant. it's an attempt at equalizing. it's simplifying and reducing.

so whether an opponent is cheesing definitely depends on their intent, but generally 3hat ling with no econ or other tech is cheese
"Fucking up is part of it. If you can't fail, you have to always win. And I don't think you can always win." Elliott Smith ---------- Yet no sudden rage darkened his face, and his eyes were calm as they studied her. Then he smiled. 'Witness.'
ShaLLoW[baY]
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada12499 Posts
July 05 2008 20:44 GMT
#41
On July 06 2008 03:39 Steelflight-Rx wrote:
I don't see why people keep saying "this build never works" or "rarely works" against good players, jaedong did a 3 hatch zergling all in against upmagic in the last OSL for in their last game, and completely destroyed up's FE build.


That was a slightly different circumstance though, as rather than doing the usual run-in-and-surround-the-wall, he mined the mineral patches (it was the RoV spawn on Monghwan) and ran behind him. The factor of being able to do this made the strategy a lot more effective and a lot less of a cheese, as it was nothing more than a calculated strategy.

I noticed I threw the word cheese around; in some opinions, a cheese strategy is something that's guaranteed to work, or at least has a very large chance of working, if the opponent doesn't scout it properly. This is a pretty broad spectrum; if Protoss doesn't scout 3hatch mutas and therefore has no cannons at his main, he's pretty screwed, but 3hatch mutas are definitely not cheese :p

Like was posted before, I believe cheese is something that lowers the skill requirement in an attempt to end the game quickly, ie; proxy dark templars or 5pool.

ALEXISONFIRE ARE FUCKING BACK (sAviOr for life)
MrRammstein
Profile Joined May 2008
Poland339 Posts
July 05 2008 21:41 GMT
#42
Very very probably already mentioned but there is a thread about building placements and even screenshots when Protoss goes FE.

3 things

1) Even pros pull of some of their Probes for good, even when not attacked and replace them with Zealots over time

2) If I can remember correctly in general Forge blocks of for good any running by on the left side of it when placed close enough to cliff/etc

3) ... just as Gate does on its right side
account abandoned:P RIP
SiCkShuttle
Profile Joined July 2008
United States24 Posts
July 06 2008 15:31 GMT
#43
i voted no, all depends on the game situation as to how risky it is. PM me for details, id be glad to debate/share.
The Shuttle flies
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25981 Posts
July 06 2008 18:41 GMT
#44
On July 06 2008 03:39 Steelflight-Rx wrote:
I don't see why people keep saying "this build never works" or "rarely works" against good players, jaedong did a 3 hatch zergling all in against upmagic in the last OSL for in their last game, and completely destroyed up's FE build.


"I don't get why people say something rarely works, here's a single example of it working"

WHAT?
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