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On August 27 2012 13:30 TabyLing wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:30 r.Evo wrote:On August 27 2012 09:59 TabyLing wrote:
If you find yourself in a friend zone you should really just move on. Personally I know within 1 or 2 meetings with a guy if I like him as only a friend or relationship material.
Women are all different and have different types of guys they are attracted to. Just like all men aren't attracted to one type of woman, all women are not attracted to one type of man.
That is why I think it's kinda silly playing all these stupid games and trying to be someone you just aren't, all you'll end up doing is attracting a girl who isn'y really attracted to you but the mask you are putting on. Any relationship you have will probably be shallow and not long lasting, but if all you want it sex then w/e do what you want.
However there are some things that really just seem to be requirements for attractiveness, no matter what your type is...
You gotta be physically attractive, not many people give a damn how cool or nice your personality is if you look like a behemoth from the swamps you are seriously disadvantaged when it comes to attraction. Now you don't have to be like amazing hot, and you don't have to have the most amazing body. You should look decent though, take care of you appearence, groom yourself, wear nice clothes, etc etc.
One of the best ways to look attractive is to be fit, being unfit gives a really unattractive look, on the other side being fit and healthy can look really attractive, even if you don't have the best facial bone structure. Being fit has alot of other benefits aswell, it improves your happiness, makes you more confident, improves your brain function, and well you can't really have good sex unless you are fit.
Being confident and happy are also really important, not many people out there enjoy spending time with someone who is unhappy and unmotivated, it's just a drag, and can make for a really horrible relationship. If you have ever experienced one, you really don't want to touch another one with a 10foot pole. You should never be looking to get into a relationship for somebody to fix you or make you happy, only you can make yourself happy and you should never drag somebody into that hell with you. Sort yourself out on your own and be able to rely on yourself for your own happiness.
Self respect is extremely important, always keep true to your own integrity.
Confidence will come naturally with a fit body, healthy happy mind, and a good amount of self respect, confidence is really sexy. Not fake confidence, real confidence usually comes with a happy mind and someone with self respect.
You can be a confident introvert too, confidence doesn't mean being out there loud and partying all the time.. It's just being sure of yourself, happy with who you are, able to talk to people and be friends with them, to be able to do what you want to do without being so worried how people are going to view it. It doesn't mean being a stupid jerk.
After all of that it just comes down to the type of person you are, and you really shouldn't change that to impress someone who just is not interested in your type.
Some women like really dominant controlling guys, some like submissive guys they can control, some like things equal and even, some like introverts, some like extroverts, some like only men older than them, some like them young or same age, the list goes on and on and on.
Work on making yourself a better person as a whole and women will just naturally find you more attractive, that doesn't mean just sit around and wait after that for the right woman to come and say "I LIKE YOU LETS DATE" you still have to go out and meet people and flirt, maybe you will have relationships that don't work out blah blah blah. The key is, being fit, confident, happy and easy to talk to are just attractive qualities over a broad spectrum of people.
Never sit in a friend zone waiting for a miracle to happen, it won't. Tell her how you feel, ie ask her out, if she turns you down, move on from looking for love with her, she isn't a bitch, or an evil person, she never liked you that way and just thought you were a friend. It is really painful when you really like somebody and they don't reciprocate your feelings, sometimes it is really hard to move on from it, but you are doing yourself no service playing games to try and win her over, only prolonging the pain. Be direct with how you feel, not pussyfooting around a bush passively waiting for her to ask you out.
The only things you should ever change about yourself are things that grow you into a better person while still keeping true to who you are. Work out, get more mature, respect yourself and others, present yourself well in terms of how you look, find confidence, have ambition and drive, want something more in life than a girl and sex, learn to accept when feelings aren't shared and how to move on. While you have some few valid points a lot of your advice is the reason most men are so horrible with women. You probably don't want to see those images of yours shattered but both from my experience with seduction and also from my experience from working with couples I can tell you that you're wrong on so many levels. You're completely wrong about how attraction works (since it's mostly about more universal traits than what you're mentioning), you're overvalueing physical appearance (I tried going out being unshaved for a week or two, I tried going out in sloppy clothes - it's almost completely neglectible) and you're completely neglecting how much strong frames and mindsets pull women in. Sure, stuff like grooming, fitness, good dressing style is something I'd recommend to every guy having trouble with women. But because it helps him feel better in his own skin, not because it's necessary to find a cool woman, have a great time together and have her smile whenever she talks about you - even years after you've been with her. I really kinda think you completely missunderstood what I was saying. These are very general points I am making since the specific personality traits various women find attractive are different for different women. However there are basic attributes you should have that most will find attraction in, reguardless of what particular personality type they like. People say it's bad advice since they don't understand it's the foundation not specifics, specifics you need to work out on your own since all people are different. I am not attracted in any kind of way to the kind of guys my sister is attracted too, she would never find they guys I like attractive, it's completely different personalities.. how can you really give any kind of generalised advice for that. However Like I said, on the physical side of things, you don't have to be amazing in looks and body, but being really unfit or having a horrible face is really going to be bad for you... I don't think I would ever date a guy that I found physically unattractive because I know I can do better ;/. I would never date an unfit guy because I keep myself fit, going to the gym eating healthy, why should i accept someone who has lower standards for themselves than I have for myself. Looks aren't the end all be all, but you gotta have something there. I can't really say what is attractive for all women since I can only really speak for myself, my tastes are extremely specific for somebody that I would actually be in a relationship with, and not at all aplicable to all women. Show nested quote +Being confident and happy are also really important, not many people out there enjoy spending time with someone who is unhappy and unmotivated, it's just a drag, and can make for a really horrible relationship. If you have ever experienced one, you really don't want to touch another one with a 10foot pole. You should never be looking to get into a relationship for somebody to fix you or make you happy, only you can make yourself happy and you should never drag somebody into that hell with you. Sort yourself out on your own and be able to rely on yourself for your own happiness.
You can be a confident introvert too, confidence doesn't mean being out there loud and partying all the time.. It's just being sure of yourself, happy with who you are, able to talk to people and be friends with them, to be able to do what you want to do without being so worried how people are going to view it. It doesn't mean being a stupid jerk. This part, while definitely true, is completely irrelevant to guys actually HAVING trouble with women. Why? Since it's fluffy prep-talk that says nothing. It's not more or less than saying "Just be confident and yourself" to someone who has no idea who he is or how true confidence feels like. Yeah, miracles in the friend zone don't happen. Your reasoning as to why is off though. It's not like they don't happen because the girl isn't receptive to it, they don't happen because the guys who usually end up in the dreaded "friendzone" by accident have no frame, no self-respect, no solid mindset and no idea how attraction works. I spent about a year trying to almost exclusively jump into the friendzone as fast as possible and as deep as possible and seduce the women from that point. Why? Because I enjoyed that way so much once I understood that it's possible without putting huge effort in, it's incredibly easy to maintain multiple relationships that way without being secretive, it has many advantages over more technical or aggressive approaches. Once again, it's not HARD to escalate from the friend zone - it's that most guys who are good with women (especially naturals) don't end up there by accident and have to figure out what they have to do now; - it just doesn't happen to them in most cases. What you don't understand is that those girls you are 'jumping into the fzone' with find you somebody they could find attractive from the beginning. You just fit in with all the things that particular type of girl finds attractive, you havn't done anything special or mind games spooky your just the right kind of personality for her to find you attractive, and you aren't hideous in appearance. Guys who get stuck in the friend zone often lack completely on one or more of the basic traits I mentioned... Those traits normally come with other better traits too. They whinge and moan and complain about it all the time too rather than having any kind of self introspection at their own real faults as people, bettering oneself is the best thing anybody can do. Champions train, losers complain.
It doesn't matter which personality traits various women find attractive. Those are all secondary to strong frames, being preselected by other women and showcasing that you're both a leader and a protector. THOSE are attributes which make a man attractive - not some arbitrary: "He has to be nice to kids, like rock music and go into museums with me!"
There's a reason guys who are successful with women hear "Wow, usually you're not my type at all" so often. Physical attractiveness is a tough one in general but even there most women seem to have rather creative brains when the other stuff fits right in. Attraction isn't related directly to physical attributes (sure, it helps here and there) but women tend to make the guy the way they want in their brain if they find him attractive. If I ask a 21 year old to guess my age she thinks I'm around 24, if I ask the same question to a 30 year old a few minutes later suddenly the guess is 31. If the topic of height comes around (e.g. on the phone after a date) women tend to add 10-15cm completely randomly. If I correct them there's a "Wow, you seemed so much taller".
A woman who is emotionally attracted finds ways for her to make the guy attractive on a logical level. It's that kind of emotional attractiveness a man should try to find if he wants to be successful with women in the long run in my opinion.
My problem with your initial points is mostly about how you try to rationalize what makes a man attractive for you. Sure, "confidence" is "attractive". Yes, being well groomed and in shape makes "attractive", yes we like to be more around people who are happy than people who are depressed all the time. However, all of that isn't something men can easily translate into actual growth for themselves. Men who call themselves bad with women have confessed their love to a random girl - and they got turned down. They invited the girl to dinner, they made her compliments - and also got turned down. They tried to "be nice", they tried to "be themselves" they tried to "just be confident" - but the problem isn't that. The problem is that their definitions of "nice", "being themselves" and "being confident" are upside down in the presence of an attractive woman without them even realizing.
Success with women doesn't come from being well groomed, in shape and happy. It comes from irradiating attractive traits. If a man who didn't make the right experiences during his youth or got the right values along from his parents or peers wants to develop those traits it needs work. If you're at that stage "Just be yourself and be confident" doesn't help anyone even though it's technically all the person would need.
It helps to fake certain attributes for a while, it helps to throw out cheesy lanes you learned till you could spew them out in front of the most stunning woman you ever saw, it helps to try random stupid stuff with women you will never see again. It helps to not masturbate for two weeks if you're too shy to touch a woman you find attractive - still can't do it? Imagine sex with her right on the spot and let the inner caveman work. She'll notice you're aware of your own sexuality and not someone who is going to ask her if she is lying comfortably every twenty seconds. Stuff like that makes a man more attractive in the long run because if works on his personality directly, widens his horizon of what's actually possible.
What you don't understand is that those girls you are 'jumping into the fzone' with find you somebody they could find attractive from the beginning. You just fit in with all the things that particular type of girl finds attractive, you havn't done anything special or mind games spooky your just the right kind of personality for her to find you attractive, and you aren't hideous in appearance.
Guys who get stuck in the friend zone often lack completely on one or more of the basic traits I mentioned... Those traits normally come with other better traits too. They whinge and moan and complain about it all the time too rather than having any kind of self introspection at their own real faults as people, bettering oneself is the best thing anybody can do.
Champions train, losers complain.
I don't think we disagree here, what I'm trying to get across is that I think you're angle of looking at the matter is off. The "traits" you mentioned are results of a strong frame even around a stunning woman. They're the result of lots and lots of dates with attractive women - that's how you build confidence in a situation you weren't confident before, by pushing out of your comfort zone. Ideal case the guy can be unshaved and in sloppy clothing and women around him still think he has "something" that makes him hot for them even if they have a really hard time telling what it is.
To me, getting better with women mostly boils down to pushing out of your comfort zone, trying out new things and slowly but steadily working on dealing better and better with the fear of rejection, the fear of not being good enough for someone (aka building confidence, self-esteem and all that good stuff). For that you have to do things you haven't done before. Obviously, saying or doing something you haven't said or done before is, to some extent, playing a little game, putting on a mask, whatever you want to call it. But from THAT perspective you can actually give a guy little ideas or exercises as to how to work on his issues instead of what I called "fluffy prep-talk" earlier. =P
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On August 27 2012 15:06 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 13:30 TabyLing wrote:On August 27 2012 10:30 r.Evo wrote:On August 27 2012 09:59 TabyLing wrote:
If you find yourself in a friend zone you should really just move on. Personally I know within 1 or 2 meetings with a guy if I like him as only a friend or relationship material.
Women are all different and have different types of guys they are attracted to. Just like all men aren't attracted to one type of woman, all women are not attracted to one type of man.
That is why I think it's kinda silly playing all these stupid games and trying to be someone you just aren't, all you'll end up doing is attracting a girl who isn'y really attracted to you but the mask you are putting on. Any relationship you have will probably be shallow and not long lasting, but if all you want it sex then w/e do what you want.
However there are some things that really just seem to be requirements for attractiveness, no matter what your type is...
You gotta be physically attractive, not many people give a damn how cool or nice your personality is if you look like a behemoth from the swamps you are seriously disadvantaged when it comes to attraction. Now you don't have to be like amazing hot, and you don't have to have the most amazing body. You should look decent though, take care of you appearence, groom yourself, wear nice clothes, etc etc.
One of the best ways to look attractive is to be fit, being unfit gives a really unattractive look, on the other side being fit and healthy can look really attractive, even if you don't have the best facial bone structure. Being fit has alot of other benefits aswell, it improves your happiness, makes you more confident, improves your brain function, and well you can't really have good sex unless you are fit.
Being confident and happy are also really important, not many people out there enjoy spending time with someone who is unhappy and unmotivated, it's just a drag, and can make for a really horrible relationship. If you have ever experienced one, you really don't want to touch another one with a 10foot pole. You should never be looking to get into a relationship for somebody to fix you or make you happy, only you can make yourself happy and you should never drag somebody into that hell with you. Sort yourself out on your own and be able to rely on yourself for your own happiness.
Self respect is extremely important, always keep true to your own integrity.
Confidence will come naturally with a fit body, healthy happy mind, and a good amount of self respect, confidence is really sexy. Not fake confidence, real confidence usually comes with a happy mind and someone with self respect.
You can be a confident introvert too, confidence doesn't mean being out there loud and partying all the time.. It's just being sure of yourself, happy with who you are, able to talk to people and be friends with them, to be able to do what you want to do without being so worried how people are going to view it. It doesn't mean being a stupid jerk.
After all of that it just comes down to the type of person you are, and you really shouldn't change that to impress someone who just is not interested in your type.
Some women like really dominant controlling guys, some like submissive guys they can control, some like things equal and even, some like introverts, some like extroverts, some like only men older than them, some like them young or same age, the list goes on and on and on.
Work on making yourself a better person as a whole and women will just naturally find you more attractive, that doesn't mean just sit around and wait after that for the right woman to come and say "I LIKE YOU LETS DATE" you still have to go out and meet people and flirt, maybe you will have relationships that don't work out blah blah blah. The key is, being fit, confident, happy and easy to talk to are just attractive qualities over a broad spectrum of people.
Never sit in a friend zone waiting for a miracle to happen, it won't. Tell her how you feel, ie ask her out, if she turns you down, move on from looking for love with her, she isn't a bitch, or an evil person, she never liked you that way and just thought you were a friend. It is really painful when you really like somebody and they don't reciprocate your feelings, sometimes it is really hard to move on from it, but you are doing yourself no service playing games to try and win her over, only prolonging the pain. Be direct with how you feel, not pussyfooting around a bush passively waiting for her to ask you out.
The only things you should ever change about yourself are things that grow you into a better person while still keeping true to who you are. Work out, get more mature, respect yourself and others, present yourself well in terms of how you look, find confidence, have ambition and drive, want something more in life than a girl and sex, learn to accept when feelings aren't shared and how to move on. While you have some few valid points a lot of your advice is the reason most men are so horrible with women. You probably don't want to see those images of yours shattered but both from my experience with seduction and also from my experience from working with couples I can tell you that you're wrong on so many levels. You're completely wrong about how attraction works (since it's mostly about more universal traits than what you're mentioning), you're overvalueing physical appearance (I tried going out being unshaved for a week or two, I tried going out in sloppy clothes - it's almost completely neglectible) and you're completely neglecting how much strong frames and mindsets pull women in. Sure, stuff like grooming, fitness, good dressing style is something I'd recommend to every guy having trouble with women. But because it helps him feel better in his own skin, not because it's necessary to find a cool woman, have a great time together and have her smile whenever she talks about you - even years after you've been with her. I really kinda think you completely missunderstood what I was saying. These are very general points I am making since the specific personality traits various women find attractive are different for different women. However there are basic attributes you should have that most will find attraction in, reguardless of what particular personality type they like. People say it's bad advice since they don't understand it's the foundation not specifics, specifics you need to work out on your own since all people are different. I am not attracted in any kind of way to the kind of guys my sister is attracted too, she would never find they guys I like attractive, it's completely different personalities.. how can you really give any kind of generalised advice for that. However Like I said, on the physical side of things, you don't have to be amazing in looks and body, but being really unfit or having a horrible face is really going to be bad for you... I don't think I would ever date a guy that I found physically unattractive because I know I can do better ;/. I would never date an unfit guy because I keep myself fit, going to the gym eating healthy, why should i accept someone who has lower standards for themselves than I have for myself. Looks aren't the end all be all, but you gotta have something there. I can't really say what is attractive for all women since I can only really speak for myself, my tastes are extremely specific for somebody that I would actually be in a relationship with, and not at all aplicable to all women. Being confident and happy are also really important, not many people out there enjoy spending time with someone who is unhappy and unmotivated, it's just a drag, and can make for a really horrible relationship. If you have ever experienced one, you really don't want to touch another one with a 10foot pole. You should never be looking to get into a relationship for somebody to fix you or make you happy, only you can make yourself happy and you should never drag somebody into that hell with you. Sort yourself out on your own and be able to rely on yourself for your own happiness.
You can be a confident introvert too, confidence doesn't mean being out there loud and partying all the time.. It's just being sure of yourself, happy with who you are, able to talk to people and be friends with them, to be able to do what you want to do without being so worried how people are going to view it. It doesn't mean being a stupid jerk. This part, while definitely true, is completely irrelevant to guys actually HAVING trouble with women. Why? Since it's fluffy prep-talk that says nothing. It's not more or less than saying "Just be confident and yourself" to someone who has no idea who he is or how true confidence feels like. Yeah, miracles in the friend zone don't happen. Your reasoning as to why is off though. It's not like they don't happen because the girl isn't receptive to it, they don't happen because the guys who usually end up in the dreaded "friendzone" by accident have no frame, no self-respect, no solid mindset and no idea how attraction works. I spent about a year trying to almost exclusively jump into the friendzone as fast as possible and as deep as possible and seduce the women from that point. Why? Because I enjoyed that way so much once I understood that it's possible without putting huge effort in, it's incredibly easy to maintain multiple relationships that way without being secretive, it has many advantages over more technical or aggressive approaches. Once again, it's not HARD to escalate from the friend zone - it's that most guys who are good with women (especially naturals) don't end up there by accident and have to figure out what they have to do now; - it just doesn't happen to them in most cases. What you don't understand is that those girls you are 'jumping into the fzone' with find you somebody they could find attractive from the beginning. You just fit in with all the things that particular type of girl finds attractive, you havn't done anything special or mind games spooky your just the right kind of personality for her to find you attractive, and you aren't hideous in appearance. Guys who get stuck in the friend zone often lack completely on one or more of the basic traits I mentioned... Those traits normally come with other better traits too. They whinge and moan and complain about it all the time too rather than having any kind of self introspection at their own real faults as people, bettering oneself is the best thing anybody can do. Champions train, losers complain. There's a reason guys who are successful with women hear "Wow, usually you're not my type at all" so often. Physical attractiveness is a tough one in general but even there most women seem to have rather creative brains when the other stuff fits right in. Attraction isn't related directly to physical attributes (sure, it helps here and there) but women tend to make the guy the way they want in their brain if they find him attractive. If I ask a 21 year old to guess my age she thinks I'm around 24, if I ask the same question to a 30 year old a few minutes later suddenly the guess is 31. If the topic of height comes around (e.g. on the phone after a date) women tend to add 10-15cm completely randomly. If I correct them there's a "Wow, you seemed so much taller".
Funny, that reminds me my sister, I have a friend who is rather good-looking but complete failure in life, no career, no job and no proper education. Somehow my sister finds him attractive although doesn't know much about him. She used to tell me, why don't you be like your friend, look how succesful/organized/disciplined he is, eventhough I had Master's degree, a good job and my life completely in tact. She could make her imagination a reality, I didn't try to prove anything, I know its useless if the girl already made up some stuff.
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On August 27 2012 15:01 bokeevboke wrote:
I for one don't believe in friendship between boy and girl and never will (except gays). If the girl tells you I like you as a friend, its actually "I like something in you, but its not enough for you to be a boyfriend". Be yourself, fit and happy is a generally good advice, but its not enough for "beta" guys, I have whole lots of friends irl, who are positive, have career and nice body but don't have girlfriends. There isn't something spectacularly wrong with them, but they're generally unatrractive for women. And there are also "alpha" guys (most of them are married and have kids already), and beleive me or not, they're advices mostly consist of some strategies and tricks to win the girl. Thats how they used to do in their whole life. You may never know it, cause you can't be in guy's shoes. But I bet you like some guys who are throwing their "tricks" right and left, you just don't notice it.
Hmm I don't really know why girls and guys can't be friends unless they are gay. It's a pretty large umbrella to put up. You are wrong about " If the girl tells you I like you as a friend, its actually "I like something in you, but its not enough for you to be a boyfriend"" maybe in some cases that can be true, but when I have said that to a guy its because I didn't and never would find them attractive. Enjoying the company of somebody to chat to and stuff is possible if they are the same gender as you or not.
All the things I mentioned are not the end, they are the base, the foundation, the level you need to be for others to consider you attractive. Basically level one.
I have found 3 guys attractive in my lifetime, 2 of them I liked in 1 meeting with them, the third and current bf was an online thing so it was a bit longer.
I have found other guys physically attractive and if I was into casual sex I wouldn't be opposed to it with them, but in terms of relationship is just not my type.
The point I wanna make there though is, tricks don't matter, they might be good for night clubs and street chatting up (looking for casual sex, or short non-commital relationship), but for a real genuine chemistry and connection they really are just a bunch of fluff and nonsense.
Maybe your "beta male" friends should go find some domme minded women ;p
On August 27 2012 15:06 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 13:30 TabyLing wrote:On August 27 2012 10:30 r.Evo wrote:On August 27 2012 09:59 TabyLing wrote:
If you find yourself in a friend zone you should really just move on. Personally I know within 1 or 2 meetings with a guy if I like him as only a friend or relationship material.
Women are all different and have different types of guys they are attracted to. Just like all men aren't attracted to one type of woman, all women are not attracted to one type of man.
That is why I think it's kinda silly playing all these stupid games and trying to be someone you just aren't, all you'll end up doing is attracting a girl who isn'y really attracted to you but the mask you are putting on. Any relationship you have will probably be shallow and not long lasting, but if all you want it sex then w/e do what you want.
However there are some things that really just seem to be requirements for attractiveness, no matter what your type is...
You gotta be physically attractive, not many people give a damn how cool or nice your personality is if you look like a behemoth from the swamps you are seriously disadvantaged when it comes to attraction. Now you don't have to be like amazing hot, and you don't have to have the most amazing body. You should look decent though, take care of you appearence, groom yourself, wear nice clothes, etc etc.
One of the best ways to look attractive is to be fit, being unfit gives a really unattractive look, on the other side being fit and healthy can look really attractive, even if you don't have the best facial bone structure. Being fit has alot of other benefits aswell, it improves your happiness, makes you more confident, improves your brain function, and well you can't really have good sex unless you are fit.
Being confident and happy are also really important, not many people out there enjoy spending time with someone who is unhappy and unmotivated, it's just a drag, and can make for a really horrible relationship. If you have ever experienced one, you really don't want to touch another one with a 10foot pole. You should never be looking to get into a relationship for somebody to fix you or make you happy, only you can make yourself happy and you should never drag somebody into that hell with you. Sort yourself out on your own and be able to rely on yourself for your own happiness.
Self respect is extremely important, always keep true to your own integrity.
Confidence will come naturally with a fit body, healthy happy mind, and a good amount of self respect, confidence is really sexy. Not fake confidence, real confidence usually comes with a happy mind and someone with self respect.
You can be a confident introvert too, confidence doesn't mean being out there loud and partying all the time.. It's just being sure of yourself, happy with who you are, able to talk to people and be friends with them, to be able to do what you want to do without being so worried how people are going to view it. It doesn't mean being a stupid jerk.
After all of that it just comes down to the type of person you are, and you really shouldn't change that to impress someone who just is not interested in your type.
Some women like really dominant controlling guys, some like submissive guys they can control, some like things equal and even, some like introverts, some like extroverts, some like only men older than them, some like them young or same age, the list goes on and on and on.
Work on making yourself a better person as a whole and women will just naturally find you more attractive, that doesn't mean just sit around and wait after that for the right woman to come and say "I LIKE YOU LETS DATE" you still have to go out and meet people and flirt, maybe you will have relationships that don't work out blah blah blah. The key is, being fit, confident, happy and easy to talk to are just attractive qualities over a broad spectrum of people.
Never sit in a friend zone waiting for a miracle to happen, it won't. Tell her how you feel, ie ask her out, if she turns you down, move on from looking for love with her, she isn't a bitch, or an evil person, she never liked you that way and just thought you were a friend. It is really painful when you really like somebody and they don't reciprocate your feelings, sometimes it is really hard to move on from it, but you are doing yourself no service playing games to try and win her over, only prolonging the pain. Be direct with how you feel, not pussyfooting around a bush passively waiting for her to ask you out.
The only things you should ever change about yourself are things that grow you into a better person while still keeping true to who you are. Work out, get more mature, respect yourself and others, present yourself well in terms of how you look, find confidence, have ambition and drive, want something more in life than a girl and sex, learn to accept when feelings aren't shared and how to move on. While you have some few valid points a lot of your advice is the reason most men are so horrible with women. You probably don't want to see those images of yours shattered but both from my experience with seduction and also from my experience from working with couples I can tell you that you're wrong on so many levels. You're completely wrong about how attraction works (since it's mostly about more universal traits than what you're mentioning), you're overvalueing physical appearance (I tried going out being unshaved for a week or two, I tried going out in sloppy clothes - it's almost completely neglectible) and you're completely neglecting how much strong frames and mindsets pull women in. Sure, stuff like grooming, fitness, good dressing style is something I'd recommend to every guy having trouble with women. But because it helps him feel better in his own skin, not because it's necessary to find a cool woman, have a great time together and have her smile whenever she talks about you - even years after you've been with her. I really kinda think you completely missunderstood what I was saying. These are very general points I am making since the specific personality traits various women find attractive are different for different women. However there are basic attributes you should have that most will find attraction in, reguardless of what particular personality type they like. People say it's bad advice since they don't understand it's the foundation not specifics, specifics you need to work out on your own since all people are different. I am not attracted in any kind of way to the kind of guys my sister is attracted too, she would never find they guys I like attractive, it's completely different personalities.. how can you really give any kind of generalised advice for that. However Like I said, on the physical side of things, you don't have to be amazing in looks and body, but being really unfit or having a horrible face is really going to be bad for you... I don't think I would ever date a guy that I found physically unattractive because I know I can do better ;/. I would never date an unfit guy because I keep myself fit, going to the gym eating healthy, why should i accept someone who has lower standards for themselves than I have for myself. Looks aren't the end all be all, but you gotta have something there. I can't really say what is attractive for all women since I can only really speak for myself, my tastes are extremely specific for somebody that I would actually be in a relationship with, and not at all aplicable to all women. Being confident and happy are also really important, not many people out there enjoy spending time with someone who is unhappy and unmotivated, it's just a drag, and can make for a really horrible relationship. If you have ever experienced one, you really don't want to touch another one with a 10foot pole. You should never be looking to get into a relationship for somebody to fix you or make you happy, only you can make yourself happy and you should never drag somebody into that hell with you. Sort yourself out on your own and be able to rely on yourself for your own happiness.
You can be a confident introvert too, confidence doesn't mean being out there loud and partying all the time.. It's just being sure of yourself, happy with who you are, able to talk to people and be friends with them, to be able to do what you want to do without being so worried how people are going to view it. It doesn't mean being a stupid jerk. This part, while definitely true, is completely irrelevant to guys actually HAVING trouble with women. Why? Since it's fluffy prep-talk that says nothing. It's not more or less than saying "Just be confident and yourself" to someone who has no idea who he is or how true confidence feels like. Yeah, miracles in the friend zone don't happen. Your reasoning as to why is off though. It's not like they don't happen because the girl isn't receptive to it, they don't happen because the guys who usually end up in the dreaded "friendzone" by accident have no frame, no self-respect, no solid mindset and no idea how attraction works. I spent about a year trying to almost exclusively jump into the friendzone as fast as possible and as deep as possible and seduce the women from that point. Why? Because I enjoyed that way so much once I understood that it's possible without putting huge effort in, it's incredibly easy to maintain multiple relationships that way without being secretive, it has many advantages over more technical or aggressive approaches. Once again, it's not HARD to escalate from the friend zone - it's that most guys who are good with women (especially naturals) don't end up there by accident and have to figure out what they have to do now; - it just doesn't happen to them in most cases. What you don't understand is that those girls you are 'jumping into the fzone' with find you somebody they could find attractive from the beginning. You just fit in with all the things that particular type of girl finds attractive, you havn't done anything special or mind games spooky your just the right kind of personality for her to find you attractive, and you aren't hideous in appearance. Guys who get stuck in the friend zone often lack completely on one or more of the basic traits I mentioned... Those traits normally come with other better traits too. They whinge and moan and complain about it all the time too rather than having any kind of self introspection at their own real faults as people, bettering oneself is the best thing anybody can do. Champions train, losers complain. It doesn't matter which personality traits various women find attractive. Those are all secondary to strong frames, being preselected by other women and showcasing that you're both a leader and a protector. THOSE are attributes which make a man attractive - not some arbitrary: "He has to be nice to kids, like rock music and go into museums with me!" There's a reason guys who are successful with women hear "Wow, usually you're not my type at all" so often. Physical attractiveness is a tough one in general but even there most women seem to have rather creative brains when the other stuff fits right in. Attraction isn't related directly to physical attributes (sure, it helps here and there) but women tend to make the guy the way they want in their brain if they find him attractive. If I ask a 21 year old to guess my age she thinks I'm around 24, if I ask the same question to a 30 year old a few minutes later suddenly the guess is 31. If the topic of height comes around (e.g. on the phone after a date) women tend to add 10-15cm completely randomly. If I correct them there's a "Wow, you seemed so much taller". A woman who is emotionally attracted finds ways for her to make the guy attractive on a logical level. It's that kind of emotional attractiveness a man should try to find if he wants to be successful with women in the long run in my opinion. My problem with your initial points is mostly about how you try to rationalize what makes a man attractive for you. Sure, "confidence" is "attractive". Yes, being well groomed and in shape makes "attractive", yes we like to be more around people who are happy than people who are depressed all the time. However, all of that isn't something men can easily translate into actual growth for themselves. Men who call themselves bad with women have confessed their love to a random girl - and they got turned down. They invited the girl to dinner, they made her compliments - and also got turned down. They tried to "be nice", they tried to "be themselves" they tried to "just be confident" - but the problem isn't that. The problem is that their definitions of "nice", "being themselves" and "being confident" are upside down in the presence of an attractive woman without them even realizing. Success with women doesn't come from being well groomed, in shape and happy. It comes from irradiating attractive traits. If a man who didn't make the right experiences during his youth or got the right values along from his parents or peers wants to develop those traits it needs work. If you're at that stage "Just be yourself and be confident" doesn't help anyone even though it's technically all the person would need. It helps to fake certain attributes for a while, it helps to throw out cheesy lanes you learned till you could spew them out in front of the most stunning woman you ever saw, it helps to try random stupid stuff with women you will never see again. It helps to not masturbate for two weeks if you're too shy to touch a woman you find attractive - still can't do it? Imagine sex with her right on the spot and let the inner caveman work. She'll notice you're aware of your own sexuality and not someone who is going to ask her if she is lying comfortably every twenty seconds. Stuff like that makes a man more attractive in the long run because if works on his personality directly, widens his horizon of what's actually possible.
I guess I didn't explain myself really well in terms of physical attraction, yes women can be a bit dynamic with it, and it is tied to the personality, (The other points you made, strong frame = work out fit, leader = confident, protector = personal preferance, women screening = wtf? ), but the actuall physical base is important. I would put men in 3 main categories;
Super amazing hot, average, ugly swamp behemoth. Most guys are in the average range and yes there is low spectrum average and high spectrum average, but lets just say all within this range are attractive enouph for most women.
You hear "you normally aren't my type" not because before she thought you are ugly, simply she just looked at a different kind of body/face type before.
To the ugly swamp behemoths I dunno gl hf  ...
To the super hot basically they can really get away with awful things and still girls will really like them. They have to be really bad to fuck up, and yeah you can find them unattractive in the end because of terrible personality.
I never said you can just turn on basic foundation traits, I said it was about personal growth before you go looking to get with someone.
Confidence should really come naturally, from your heart cause you are that way, not just being that way to get a girl. Same with self respect and happiness. These are just basic parts of improving yourself as a person and you really should always be at this level of basic traits before you go off looking for somebody to invite into your life.
Attractive men radiate these qualities because they ARE them, they aren't just pretending to get something.
Show nested quote +What you don't understand is that those girls you are 'jumping into the fzone' with find you somebody they could find attractive from the beginning. You just fit in with all the things that particular type of girl finds attractive, you havn't done anything special or mind games spooky your just the right kind of personality for her to find you attractive, and you aren't hideous in appearance.
Guys who get stuck in the friend zone often lack completely on one or more of the basic traits I mentioned... Those traits normally come with other better traits too. They whinge and moan and complain about it all the time too rather than having any kind of self introspection at their own real faults as people, bettering oneself is the best thing anybody can do.
Champions train, losers complain. I don't think we disagree here, what I'm trying to get across is that I think you're angle of looking at the matter is off. The "traits" you mentioned are results of a strong frame even around a stunning woman. They're the result of lots and lots of dates with attractive women - that's how you build confidence in a situation you weren't confident before, by pushing out of your comfort zone. Ideal case the guy can be unshaved and in sloppy clothing and women around him still think he has "something" that makes him hot for them even if they have a really hard time telling what it is. To me, getting better with women mostly boils down to pushing out of your comfort zone, trying out new things and slowly but steadily working on dealing better and better with the fear of rejection, the fear of not being good enough for someone (aka building confidence, self-esteem and all that good stuff). For that you have to do things you haven't done before. Obviously, saying or doing something you haven't said or done before is, to some extent, playing a little game, putting on a mask, whatever you want to call it. But from THAT perspective you can actually give a guy little ideas or exercises as to how to work on his issues instead of what I called "fluffy prep-talk" earlier. =P
I think this explains why you think what I say is off, we don't disagree, I'm not saying people can just turn this stuff on in a flash, I'm saying they need to build themselves to being at that level at the very least, I guess I never considered chatting people up with weirdo tactics a way to get there though.
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It isn´t complicated
If you have comon interests than you are basically there. But there has to be some sort of spark, so you have to try with that person if you want a relationship. If it doesn´t work then you try somewhere else.
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On August 27 2012 23:52 Facultyadjutant wrote:
It isn´t complicated
If you have comon interests than you are basically there. But there has to be some sort of spark, so you have to try with that person if you want a relationship. If it doesn´t work then you try somewhere else.
This.
Four out of my last five relationships started because I liked to write and she liked that I liked to write (or liked reading what I wrote).
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My name hath summoned me here.
As SarR mentioned before, I tend to be a bit of an oddball, but I'll try my best to help out:
This, for instance, is quite true.
On August 27 2012 02:49 SarR wrote:
Women want equals, not pandering servants. Women are attracted to men who are unaffected by their beauty and unafraid to call them on their bullshit. Those are the kinds of men they fuck. You won;t hear that from a woman.
However, that doesn't mean that we ladies don't enjoy being spoiled and pampered and having some of our shit dealt with. It's just that we KNOW we can be irrational, even if we don't like admitting it. You don't want to fight against them completely, but you want to call them on it when they get out of line.
Example:
-Girl gets upset over stupid thing, yells at guy
-Guy apologizes for girl being upset ("I'm sorry this upset you"), but notes that the stupid thing is not worthy of such a response ("but...")
-Girl feels like she is being comforted without having her anger justified
-Win/win
Now, as for the "unaffected by their beauty" part, I think women always want to have SOME effect with their looks, but they don't want to be able to bat their eyelashes to get everything they want.
As for the friend zone, note that women want what they can't have. If you think you have a chance, my recommendation is to friend zone her until she goes nuts for you over it.
Every friendzone/relationship is situational, though. Feel free to PM me whenever for girl advice.
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EPT
