|
Simply put, PvT on Longinus kicks my ass. Standard doesn't really do it for me and I don't have the micro to use reavers, so I have been experimenting with two base carrier. I haven't been able to find a BO, guide or tips for doing this build, so it's interesting because I just kind of make stuff up, see how it works and alter it.
Things I have tried so far.
- I have tried going two gate goons, than expansion, third gate and robotics, than getting the stargates, but especially on Longinus, they just mass for a few more minutes, than run me down. A carrier or two may pop out, but by that time I am completely dead.
- After the previous game, I tried to go two gate goons, expansion, third gate and robotics, add three more gates, macro hard and than add the stargates. Again, a timing push came, I kind of fought it off, than I feel I only got lucky with the attacks and that a better player would have run me over.
So I'm asking for what the best way to do this is, given the following:
- I don't want to open with reavers, I can't use them well enough, I don't have the multitask.
- I want this to be a build I can use on Longinus, Katrina and Blue Storm, as those are the maps where carriers seem to do really well.
- Overall tips to stall the push? If those timing pushes could be stalled a few more minutes I could out micro them, or have carriers. Of course than it wouldn't be a timing push, but i need ideas to help stall. I thought of DT, but that's too much gas that I need when I am still needing observers, goons, upgrades on air attack, two stargates and fleet beacon.
- Maybe some reps of it being done?
Let's hear from some Protoss'! Plexa, I'm looking at you on this one!
 
|
There's a lot of VODs of progamers doing this on Katrina, but first of all I don't know if it'll be same on Longinus because not as big distance from bases imo.
|
I do 2-3 base carriers very often on the D to D+ (and lower) levels, but I find that good 1 gate goon pressure, followed by reaver drop is actually essential to slowing the enemy down and slowing their second base to the point where you can go carriers in relative safety. Using reavers is important to a Protoss player, especially in the modern trend of things, I think you'd do good to learn it instead of bypassing it.
So, in other words, this is my general build: 1 gate goon (range first, 1-2 goon pressure until tank), robo + reaver and pick up a goon and harass, get 2 gate right after reaver comes out, stall nat expo with goons and shuttle micro, expo before or during their tank push out (to take their nat) and then add 2 gates, then go 2 port carrier.
An alternative I've been doing on maps like Python or LT is going 3 base before carrier, but I don't have a solid pattern for this yet.
|
On March 22 2008 12:16 fanatacist wrote:
reaver drop is actually essential to slowing the enemy down and slowing their second base to the point where you can go carriers in relative safety. Using reavers is important to a Protoss player, especially in the modern trend of things, I think you'd do good to learn it instead of bypassing it.
This is what I was afraid of.
I will try your idea, I think part of the problem when I tried reaver is that I went reaver AFTER I expanded, so it was really late and a push came and I became contained. Thanks for the idea at the very least though!
Any reason why 5 gates instead of 6?
|
On March 22 2008 12:19 SalvGG wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2008 12:16 fanatacist wrote:
reaver drop is actually essential to slowing the enemy down and slowing their second base to the point where you can go carriers in relative safety. Using reavers is important to a Protoss player, especially in the modern trend of things, I think you'd do good to learn it instead of bypassing it.
This is what I was afraid of. I will try your idea, I think part of the problem when I tried reaver is that I went reaver AFTER I expanded, so it was really late and a push came and I became contained. Thanks for the idea at the very least though!
Oh! Yea, that will be a big damper on the strategy because the point of reaver harass (in my humble opinion) is that the Terran is not well prepared or has not yet scouted the tech. If you expo first, more often than not a decent T will have floated an Ebay or his rax into your base or scouted by some other means your reaver tech. Try the 1 gate goon pressure followed by reaver harass, and if you're of D-rank or lower, I can send you some reps of me doing this build.
EDIT: 5? I usually get 4. I only get 6 if I don't go carrier, and play standard. From 3 base you could probably do 5/6 with carrier.
|
Last season I was B-, but when it comes to this build, I really am clueless. Like I said, I have just been trying certain things, seeing what works, what doesn't. From a logical perspective, I like where you are coming from and I really appreciate the idea. I will try this for sure, the only thing I wonder is: What if he happens to push on you BEFORE your reaver is finished?
If the answer to that is simply, stall until reaver, than bust, that is fine, but than I wonder, what if it is on a map like Longinus where the Terran can wall off the natural? You won't be able to really stop him from taking it, only harass with reaver. Either or, I will try this, and post my results! TYVM
|
Shiii D: Now I feel noobish again haha xD
Any pushes on you before reaver are going to either involve marines or vultures - in other words, low tank count. You should be able to scout this beforehand and be prepared for it while still going reaver. This might mean getting a second gate after robo but before reaver. I have a replay on Python (I know it's different, but hear me out) where I gas cap the Terran at the adjacent base, and she goes 3 rax mnm with firebat against my 1 gate. I only saw 2 rax (or maybe even 1, don't remember) and assumed that just adding a second gate should cover me. I got 2 gate, pumped goons, got robo, and then expo'd with forge (for cannons against mnm). But because she had 3 rax, she pushed out against my contain with a rather large force - I had to cancel nexus, and pump more goons from my gates, delaying my reaver considerably. After holding off the attack with probe block and goons on the cliff, I was able to pressure and safely build reaver.
Moral of the story: you will most likely know that something is up, and even if you don't grasp the entire situation, 1 gate robo is a flexible enough build that you should be able to react appropriately, whether it be getting a second gate instead of shuttle or instead of support bay or instead of reaver. 2 gate, even if it's a bit late, should be more than enough to handle almost anything I've seen ran throw at me.
As for wall off the natural, my solution is tenacity - I move out with 1 goon after it kills the scouting SCV, then set rally so that my second goon arrives at the ramp. I kill any rines that they have made (usually a low number, and if it is high you know you can expect an early push), and I start shooting at depots. Then I shoot at SCVs that repair depots. Just annoy the shit out of them - at B- level this might not bother them as much as at my level, but it is better than just giving up. They may get their nat earlier than you, but with the goons bothering them until they get tank, and the reaver coming in soon after, it might actually hurt them more for getting a CC so early, as they will probably have fewer tanks and more spread out (over 2 mineral lines), and thus shuttle with goon/reaver should always be able to do considerable damage.
EDIT: Another thing about early pushes... For some of them that aren't THAT early, you can use your reaver defensively, obviously. Though they will be better prepared for any harass, they also just wasted themselves on an early push, so even if your harass is less effective, you should still be somewhat ahead.
EDIT 2: Oh, and good luck!
EDIT 3: I hate when I type I accidentally press the touchpad and it moves me up a line and then it sounds like I am retarded. Fixed.
|
I think you would need reavers to pull this 2 base carrier thing off
|
On March 22 2008 13:07 il0seonpurpose wrote:
I think you would need reavers to pull this 2 base carrier thing off
Lol, I like your summary sir.
|
Well Fana, I like what you've said so far. I will test it out, post the results and we'll go from there :D
|
The reason so many people are recommending reaver builds is because they are a solid response to whatever the terran may throw at you. Even to terran FE's. Meaning you will be able to set up your 2 stargate carriers without being too far behind or too compromised if the terran shall decide to do a timing push.
I usually use a variation of fanaticist's build on longinus. 1 gate goon pressure skipping the range upgrade and adding a robo while the first goon is building (no matter if the opponent scouts it or not...). After 3 goons I start building 2 zealots as my shuttle/reaver are on the way.
Your 3 goons outside your opponents base will be able to delay any pushes. And even if he runs straight towards your base without interruption you should still be able to get the reaver out in time to save your ass. Add observatory while your reaver is building and build an observer right away. Now, there are a couple of scenarios here:
1. Terran opens 2 fac -- with whatever variety of rushes that exist for 2 fac.
Answer: Add gateway and with proper reaver/shuttle micro you should be able to deflect this. Research range asap.
2. Terran opens 1 fac and pushes out with 1 tank 4-7 marines and vulture/mine trailing behind and transitions into expo.
Answer: Delay with 2-3 initial goons. If you feel comfortable, just fly straight to his base with the shuttle to harass ignoring his attacking force. If not, use it to deflect the initial push. Add an expansion, fly towards opponent with shuttle and start clearing mines while running observer/goons to your opponent's base.
This is a very multitasking heavy part of the game. You have to find weak spots to harass while clearing a path to your opponent's base with your ground force while at the same time managing your base properly. Alot of players panic at the sight of a shuttle and move all/most of their troops chasing it. This is where you need to be alert with your ground force that should have grown to about 4-5 goons now. Usually you can just run straight in and pick off a lone sieged tank (if there's no wall-in). I usually try to break the wall even if there's a sieged tank protecting it. Since it really distracts my opponents. If you can't get to his SCV's with the reaver harass try to pick off stray tanks by letting the zealots take the dmg. Remember to maynard probes, add a gateway or two, build pylons etc during all this...
I usually take a 3rd base while doing this, but only if I don't screw up the harass too badly 
Reavers are a really good way of delaying a terran push and buying yourself time to get carriers. The concept of threat plays into your hands. Terran won't move out until he feels safe.
You have to practice finding holes in the defence when reaver harassing. Even supply depots are worth blasting down if they're undefended. You'll be surprised how often the wall-in isn't properly sieged for reavers' range. I've blasted down the two front supply depots by placing two reavers maximum range in front and using the shuttle to increase sight range A LOT of times.
I was going to cover more scenarios but my mind wandered during this last one. Have to go to sleep. Good night. OH yeah: This is a really good build on maps with island expansions as well. As shuttle pops out grab a probe and fly it to an island expansion and return in time as the reaver pops.
|
On March 22 2008 15:15 LaLuSh wrote:
OH yeah: This is a really good build on maps with island expansions as well. As shuttle pops out grab a probe and fly it to an island expansion and return in time as the reaver pops.
I agree with most of what he said, but this is something I love to do in particular <3
|
On March 22 2008 15:15 LaLuSh wrote:
You'll be surprised how often the wall-in isn't properly sieged for reavers' range. I've blasted down the two front supply depots by placing two reavers maximum range in front and using the shuttle to increase sight range A LOT of times.
This like game me an ephiphany lol. I just was theorycrafting on top of this and if you harassed his base a bit, flew out, went to his wall and started to blast the two depots there, I could almost guarantee it would go down. The only tanks that could hit are the ones sieged right next to the wall.. which i never see terrans do because than i can move in with some goons, and snipe it. Even if i didn't move in after that, that's two depots, which is huge!
Actually, even if there was a siege tank or two, I could drop a zealot, let it take the first blast(s) of tanks, than fire with the goons/reaver on a supply, and I'l 99% of the time take it out. This helps quite a bit.
The rest of your post is solid too, I've yet to try this, but I am becoming more confident as I read more replies. What about gateways though? five is a good number you think?
|
Salv I think you asked me about this but I was afk. You should try 13 nexus. It forces T to either
a) counter expand but theirs will be later and you are auto ahead. If you macro as well as them you should be able to win without much trouble just as you would on any other map.
b) They'll do some bunk rush, or 2/3 fac type build in which case it comes down to if you can live or not. I've had a lot of success with it so far only losing 1 of my 5 or 6 games PvT on Longi due to a micro error. Bunk rush is easily stopped by a few probes and your zealot that shoudl be started as soon as you get your core down. 2/3 fac should come with maybe 1 tank, 2 vult, 5 rine, and 3 scv when you have 1 zlot and 2-3 goons. With proper probe usage you should be fine. I'm on iccup now i'll show you reps if you want.
edit: Another good strat is going aggressive 2 gate goon (the one where you get 2 gates before 2nd pylon) and follow up with dt (proxying your tech if desired). They'll be busy dealing with your 2 gate goon and will assume there's no way you can be going dt as well. I remember first seeing it in the ToT rep pack and it works pretty well.
And I also hate reavers PvT so these two strats are ways around them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
