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I have come off as harsh and unwarranted with my criticisms, I apologize. It is not my goal to create a huge flamefest making you guys angry and defensive. Thus I will re-iterate my goal. In the kindest way I can put it, I want you all to realize how far your knowledge of starcraft is from to be able to describe accurately at least half of what's happening in a progaming game. I am passionate about this because you guys disagree. When I attack you guys, I am attacking your starcraft knowledge, not the way you guys commentate or how much effort you guys put in them. I hope you guys can respond without attacking anything about me that has nothing to do with my knowledge about starcraft.
In response to your belief that most of the stuff I've pointed out would've been covered if you guys did not call the game on the spot, I am myself a C level Iccup player who occasionally watches progames, but I can assure you that I caught everything I said you guys missed on the first time I watched the games. For example in response to the 8 rax comment, I play tvz so I know immediately that a barrack before supply means 8 rax. It is not something that should be noticed on the second time around.
I understand you guys spend a crazy amount of time and effort into the commentaries only as a hobby, and sometimes you guys are tired when doing them. But what I want to point out is that I truly believe, that it is not because of those things you guys list that you missed the things I've pointed out, but because all three of you lack the starcraft knowledge to notice and understand those things. I'm not suggesting anything else besides that. I hope you guys can improve your knowledge of the game, but I'm certainly not demanding it because you guys do the commentaries voluntarily. So as someone who's watched your commentaries and understand a decent part of the game, I hope you guys can listen to my criticisms without getting emotional in response to my tone. It's just the way I argue on TL.
Lastly, I do not compare you guys to the Chinese commentators at all. It is their job to commentate, they all have a very deep background in starcraft gaming. Thus I do not expect you guys to be anywhere near their level. Again I apologize for being harsh. Hope you guys can ignore it.
  
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There is no need to be so conciliatory. I prefer seeing blood.
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It's good of you to apologize. Your points weren't entirely unfounded in some of the things they do to commentate, but frankly, to someone (like myself) who's non partisan to the situation, you did come off a lot in the way Klazart perceived it. It seemed like for whatever reason their commentaries pissed you off and you wanted to show everyone how shitty they are.
There definitely are areas they can improve, so it's hard to find fault with anyone who critiscizes them, even if extensively. The manner of critiscism is very important, however, especially when discussing something like this, that we know is appreciated by a lot of the community (hey, they get watched/praised, no?), and is a "service" on their parts.
im impressed by reconciliatory attitude, but then again people on the internet usually think im a big fag for that anyhow 
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Well that's the thing I don't think the manner of my criticism is important at all but apparently all of you guys do so I'm apologizing and changing my tone so you guys can focus on the important stuff instead of how I word stuff
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South Africa4316 Posts
I read that whole thing, and it all started with Diggity saying that 100 faults must be found in one of his commetaries. So even though Zulu was harsh, Diggity did ask for it.
I've got not problem with them making commentaries, and they are free to do as they like, but I do find it troubling that someone else can find 65 mistakes in one commentary, and the commentator then focusses on the way he found those problems, rather than the fact that they existed in the first place. If I put the effort into making a commentary I definitely wouldn't want to make error ridden commentaries, and I wouldn't be happy knowing that I did make one.
So I agree with Zulu in saying that if they have any sort of pride in their work they should try to improve the quality level of the commentaries, while keeping their energy and enthusiasm for them.
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Good job for apologizing and the change in attitude, but I'd just like to point out that in general (and in life), the tone and manner of how someone says something is often even more important than what he says. I really think that if you had worded your comments neutrally without any sarcastic remarks and just made a straightforward list, there would be no arguments, emotions or tempers flaring at all, because a lot of your points do have merit.
On January 24 2008 23:43 zulu_nation8 wrote:
so you guys can focus on the important stuff instead of how I word stuff
However, one thing I don't understand is, why is it so important (to you or certain TL.net members) to point out all of the individual problems in the commentaries? I am a C- ICCUP player and I picked up on most of these same details while listening to them, but I have absolutely no problem with their commentaries because I don't listen to them to "learn SC" or find deep new strategical insight. If Klaz doesn't have the time to train his SC skills (or if his condition limits him) to attain the level of insight to satisfy you, then there's no need to listen to the commentaries or call him out for it.
Just ask yourself one question: Did you really write up those two blog posts with good intentions to help them improve their commentary?
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team solid, this is the pm diggity sent me
From: Diggity
Subject: Feedback
Date: 1/22/08 15:44
Greetings,
I think we got off on the wrong foot in the literature discussion and in general I prefer to at least have an understanding rather than let things lie.
That being said, your comments do seem to have some sort of personal charge to them and additionally you aren't providing any constructive criticism.
Pretty much the only things I can glean from your comments are that you think we are bad at commentary and should stop.
I honestly dont mind critic at all, in fact I encourage it, but for criticism to be useful it needs to be constructive.
Several others in the community had issues with one aspect or another and they brought the issues up and thus we improved. Instead you have simply said "there are 100 things wrong"
Thats fantastic. If you can point those 100 things out and then tell us how to improve that is one thing, but just saying "there are 100 things wrong" isn't helpful at all.
We do put an ass load of time into this and no we are by far imperfect. We watch the vods on the spot and will most likely always miss something. Additionally we have played seriously in quite some time and the game was radically different when we did play seriously. However simply saying "you are wrong" doesn't do anything but generate anti-commentary sentiment which will only serve to prevent people from even attempting this in the future as they have to put themselves on the line and constantly be harassed more or less by people who expect perfection that they themselves cannot deliver.
If you can provide valid feedback then please do but otherwise the generally empty ridicule which lacks contribution is not appreciated.
I'm serious about this... if you have something that you disagree with I would really like to know because if you are right that just makes me a better commentator which is what I am interested in.
But if you are just going to more or less say "you suck... quit" then don't bother.
-Diggity
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Okay, I see that he asked for the criticism, but then why not respond in the same likeness with a PM? By posting all of your harsh criticisms publicly on your blog, what purpose does it serve besides humiliation and/or inciting an unnecessary flame war?
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well, when I was making the list I spent a lot of time on it and I thought that, if it was only my word against his, it would've been hard to convince him that my criticism was justified. I didn't wanna make a thread because that in my mind would've looked like an attempt to public humiliate him so therefore I kept it to my blog. Believe me it was not my intention for everyone on TL to flame them. I've tried to keep it as constructive and civilized as I can but as I kept on watching the game the stuff they were saying was getting more ridiculous and sometimes I couldn't help but use a harsh tone to criticize. I did not expect them to take so much hostility to my comments because they did ask for criticism after all and I did exactly that, albeit very harsh. So I hope all of the klazart/diggity supporters understand that my comments are not a personal attack on them but instead a harsh criticism which I believe is warranted.
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Well your blog is still public and is meant for others to read, so it isn't really much of a difference from opening a thread. If Diggity was serious about criticism (like he said), then I'm sure he would've accepted whatever you PMed him, rather than reject it. If he still rejects your criticism, only then would it be a good idea IMO to post it on a blog to see what others think. I think you really should've thought further ahead before posting, or just done some heavy editing a bit after you watched when you were less annoyed.
I just hope you realize that the net result of what you have done (largely because of your tone) is most likely negative/discouraging rather than positive. Whatever, what's done is done and you have apologized. Whether that's good enough is up to them.
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Yes I apologize for being too harsh and making my comments seem like a personal attack. But I still stand by what I said, they make a lot of mistakes in their commentaries and I hope they can see how.
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Zulu I really appreciated your 2nd feedback all else being said.
As soon as you said 8 rax I realized your point. Its ironic since when I did play I 8 raxed almost exclusively when I played terran (sometimes to actually 8 rax and other times just to kill the scout early and do something stupid silly like go 2 port wraith against protoss... yes I know thats a bad idea which is why I enjoyed doing it).
In this situation I assumed a depot was down off screen which was a terrible mistake.
I posted another comment in klaz's section I will post it again here.
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From both posts
Wow this is really spinning out of control is essentially baseline exactly what I didn't want.
First of all I actually really appreciated the 2nd feedback set. It was all really helpful information. I didn't appreciate the tone.
Klaz also wanted to point out that post analysis is a lot different from in the mix analysis. So its helpful to keep that in mind when giving feedback.
I'm not sure if I can emphasize this enough, but the 2nd feedback example was exactly what I was looking for.
And really on all future commentaries I would appreciate the same because I really do think it will help me improve.
What I think Klaz is primarily concerned about is the attitude surrounding the entire thing. While this could have been handled in a private manner Zulu went out of his way to make it public, which seems like a general attempt to belittle.
Additionally from our perspective there seems to be this enclave of people watching and grumbling talking about "how we think we are so gosu" or something like that when its just not the case.
It really does feel like there is a group of 40 or so people that are just sitting around badmouthing the commentaries and pointing out flaws not to make them better but because of some general ill impression of us or something. Really it feels like people are just sitting around in IRC talking trash and now that they have an opportunity to do it in public they are doing so.
I have never claimed to be fantastic, because honestly at the moment I am terrible, but for whatever reason people get the impression that just because we are commentating on the games that we are laying hold to some sort of entitlement, we aren't.
As klaz said earlier we do this because we enjoy ourselves and hope to draw people in to esports.
We have never claimed to be professionals, we have only claimed to be enthusiast.
Generally its really difficult to remain motivated to provide any of this considering the time commitment.
Its extremely demotivating to put something out there in your free time and then have people rail against the very concept of it.
Its like cooking a dinner for someone and instead of saying no thank you or "I prefer this other meal" they punch you in the face.
Anyhow the main points I'm concerned with in general are
1) the general negative attitude that seems to be prevelant everywhere on teamliquid at the moment.
and
2) I'm serious... I want feedback but I don't appreciate everything else that seems to be attached behind it.
Seriously is there anyway that this could be generally resolved towards the betterment of the community at large instead of continuing with the general harsh feelings that seem to be developing.
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also the have should have = haven't in the PM I sent to zulu
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well, when I was making the list I spent a lot of time on it and I thought that, if it was only my word against his, it would've been hard to convince him that my criticism was justified. I didn't wanna make a thread because that in my mind would've looked like an attempt to public humiliate him so therefore I kept it to my blog. Believe me it was not my intention for everyone on TL to flame them. I've tried to keep it as constructive and civilized as I can but as I kept on watching the game the stuff they were saying was getting more ridiculous and sometimes I couldn't help but use a harsh tone to criticize. I did not expect them to take so much hostility to my comments because they did ask for criticism after all and I did exactly that, albeit very harsh. So I hope all of the klazart/diggity supporters understand that my comments are not a personal attack on them but instead a harsh criticism which I believe is warranted.
I was somewhat upset that you didn't even give me the opportunity to take you at your word.
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and this
There is no need to be so conciliatory. I prefer seeing blood.
is generally the sort of thing I would like to see us all rise up against.
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I agree with zulu and Aphelion - there's no need to reconcile here. If you don't like the fact that people think your work sucks ass, don't ask them to apologize to you - either improve your work or ignore the criticism.
Drawing a parallel to Starcraft, this is not a mutual dickrub. We know that you put in time, but guess what, an A for effort is not an A for content and quality. I know I'm being extremely harsh, but I'm sick of all the new players sucking your dick for series of subpar Youtube VODs severely lacking in the analysis department.
That being said, Artosis and Gentho have done a far superior job in their work at Micromedia and the Ascension VODs. If you want to improve your work, maybe you should look for their level of analysis.
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I agree with zulu and Aphelion - there's no need to reconcile here. If you don't like the fact that people think your work sucks ass, don't ask them to apologize to you - either improve your work or ignore the criticism.
Drawing a parallel to Starcraft, this is not a mutual dickrub. We know that you put in time, but guess what, an A for effort is not an A for content and quality. I know I'm being extremely harsh, but I'm sick of all the new players sucking your dick for series of subpar Youtube VODs severely lacking in the analysis department.
That being said, Artosis and Gentho have done a far superior job in their work at Micromedia and the Ascension VODs. If you want to improve your work, maybe you should look for their level of analysis.
I'm not going to acknowledge that with a response (aside from this one course)
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On January 25 2008 02:48 naventus wrote:
I agree with zulu and Aphelion - there's no need to reconcile here. If you don't like the fact that people think your work sucks ass, don't ask them to apologize to you - either improve your work or ignore the criticism.
Drawing a parallel to Starcraft, this is not a mutual dickrub. We know that you put in time, but guess what, an A for effort is not an A for content and quality. I know I'm being extremely harsh, but I'm sick of all the new players sucking your dick for series of subpar Youtube VODs severely lacking in the analysis department.
That being said, Artosis and Gentho have done a far superior job in their work at Micromedia and the Ascension VODs. If you want to improve your work, maybe you should look for their level of analysis.
errr...i dont think anyone should expect these guys to be working at Artosis/Gentho level. Theres just such a huge experience difference its not even realistic.
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There's nothing wrong with being honest about it. We can argue all day about how civil to be, but the fact is that from the responses these guys have given, they aren't really interested in improving their analysis (meaning they aren't willing to put in the time to get better at the actual game). They seem to be more interested in giving the new and developing community something.
The fact is their work is somewhat of an indication of the decay of this forum. Like most places on the internet, the original community of posters has largely dwindled - and is mostly supplanted by a huge flood of new and theorycrafting new players. It used to be places like SClegacy forums that house them - but as those have largely died out, TL has taken most of them in. There's nothing to be done about this process - it's largely outside of what we can control, but it doesn't mean older people can't be resentful.
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errr...i dont think anyone should expect these guys to be working at Artosis/Gentho level. Theres just such a huge experience difference its not even realistic.
We can certainly improve but I dont think we will have the retrospective years of experience that Artosis has in particular.
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Side note: Is there any reason that Ascension isn't featured on the main page?
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cuz they have no relation with TL
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I've written so many postings on that topic years ago, when the first commentaries came around. I couldn't stand watching anybody commentate on a game who knew less about it than me. But I loved any commentaries by those who were better than me, no matter how their style of commentating was.
And after I complained a hundred times that people shouldn't commentate on games if they don't have a clue, I realized there were many people who like those comments and maybe learn something from them.
I mean what are commentators going to do? They can't just get better from one day to the next. And why would they stop commentating as long as there are people who listen to their commentaries?
Of course, myself, I only listen to commentaries of people who are good and they are very rare. But that's not the fault of the active (newbie) commentators.
Rather than criticizing them you should encourage good players to also do commentaries.
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The issue is not how much work they put into commentating, it's their shitty attitude to understanding their own failings that disgusts everyone here.
No one would be supporting them if all they were acting the same way, say if they wrote up a post about how great 7 pool was, and kept on defending it.
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Netherlands19135 Posts
God too much emo in this blog 
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Netherlands19135 Posts
On January 25 2008 13:45 naventus wrote:
The issue is not how much work they put into commentating, it's their shitty attitude to understanding their own failings that disgusts everyone here.
No one would be supporting them if all they were acting the same way, say if they wrote up a post about how great 7 pool was, and kept on defending it.
Oh what he said and more of it.
Fuel to fire ROAR.
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Vatican City State1176 Posts
On January 25 2008 13:45 naventus wrote:
The issue is not how much work they put into commentating, it's their shitty attitude to understanding their own failings that disgusts everyone here.
No one would be supporting them if all they were acting the same way, say if they wrote up a post about how great 7 pool was, and kept on defending it.
I don't get it
ok you don't like these commentaries, that's ok
but why the hell would u just bm diggity? what's the point in telling him?
ther are actually ppl like me who like them, so leave us alone
it's a goddamn internet forum, you can simply scroll over and don't read it, just ignor him and don't post at all, as simple as that
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On January 25 2008 03:02 Kennigit wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2008 02:48 naventus wrote:
I agree with zulu and Aphelion - there's no need to reconcile here. If you don't like the fact that people think your work sucks ass, don't ask them to apologize to you - either improve your work or ignore the criticism.
Drawing a parallel to Starcraft, this is not a mutual dickrub. We know that you put in time, but guess what, an A for effort is not an A for content and quality. I know I'm being extremely harsh, but I'm sick of all the new players sucking your dick for series of subpar Youtube VODs severely lacking in the analysis department.
That being said, Artosis and Gentho have done a far superior job in their work at Micromedia and the Ascension VODs. If you want to improve your work, maybe you should look for their level of analysis. errr...i dont think anyone should expect these guys to be working at Artosis/Gentho level. Theres just such a huge experience difference its not even realistic.
Personally, I think these guys do a better job than Gentho and Artosis in Micromedia, who just basically state the obvious and never go into indepth discussion of strategy of all (even though I'm certain they are capable of it). Most of the stuff is just: he killed his army, he's ahead, or he just lost abunch of drones, thats bad.
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On January 25 2008 13:45 naventus wrote:
The issue is not how much work they put into commentating, it's their shitty attitude to understanding their own failings that disgusts everyone here.
What shitty attitude? I've seen nothing but good manner from all three of the people in question. And what disgust? Stop putting words in everyones mouths. They acknowledge their weaknesses. What do you want, them to apologize to you for the deep offense they have caused you? Because thats the shitty attitude you're bringing to the table.
On January 25 2008 13:45 naventus wrote:
No one would be supporting them if all they were acting the same way, say if they wrote up a post about how great 7 pool was, and kept on defending it.
What the fuck are you even talking about?
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FieryBalrog: Joined June 2007.
Enough said. Go ahead and suck their dicks, you are too easy to troll anyways. I'm done wasting my time.
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Can I give my 2 cents? A week late, but still.
I just started listening to the commentaries today. Diggity and Klatz are both terrific speakers and do a quality job. Their starcraft knowledge isn't up to par, and even I noticed some glaring errors, and I'm not very good, but it's better than watching in the original korean. I totally understand why people are upset about their poor analysis -- no one likes being lectured on something by someone who knows a lot less.
That said, there is a difference between being constructive and being critical. Attitude matters. I feel like you posted your first critique with the intention of discouraging the commentators, not to help them improve. You can't really expect someone not to get defensive when you say
Ok, I'm gonna stop at 64 because I don't see any point in continuing, I'm not here to teach people starcraft the point I'm making is merely that you know a lot less about the game than you think, and you do say a lot of bad stuff in your commentaries. I hope I have done enough to convince you.
That's just a bad attitude, and needlessly confrontational.
I know this post sounds like I'm needlessly reviving a dead issue. But that's not the case, entirely. I sincerely believe you've changed your attitude and you're trying to help. I really appreciate that, and I hope you continue to work with the commentators to help them improve. I get annoyed with their errors also, and want to see their analysis improve. Moreover, I wanted to encourage the commentators to keep up their work. They do a good job, put in lots of work, and make VODs way more enjoyable. Finally, I wanted to make the point that when someone spends several hours every week contributing something a majority of the community appreciates, comments like
Yes, the commentators absolutely blow in terms of knowledge. They seriously make your ears bleed, the live reports of a couple years ago were like 100x better.
What really pisses me off is that these amateurs attract new gamers to the scene who actually believe they are pro. The fact is their work is somewhat of an indication of the decay of this forum. Like most places on the internet, the original community of posters has largely dwindled - and is mostly supplanted by a huge flood of new and theorycrafting new players. It used to be places like SClegacy forums that house them - but as those have largely died out, TL has taken most of them in. There's nothing to be done about this process - it's largely outside of what we can control, but it doesn't mean older people can't be resentful. etc. make you look like a huge asshole, that last one especially. I have no doubt that these posters could do a better job with commentary. You know why they don't get kudos? Because they DON'T. They don't put in the hours, they don't contribute. They just sit back and moan. I'm consistently amazed at how willing people are to resort to being critical, snobby, little bitches on the internet when in real life they'd just keep their comments to themselves, because if they opened their mouths, they'd be labeled morons.
Edit: I don't like censoring parts of my own post, but I'm realizing that most of this wasn't neccessary. Mostly I just wanted to call out some people for being assholes and encourage the commentators. I hope you realize I'm not trying to call you out Zulu. I appreciate your efforts at helping the commentators, and hope you keep it up.
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i love zulu_nation8 everyone else suck penis 
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On March 03 2008 10:54 starrek wrote:i love zulu_nation8 everyone else suck penis
How could you forget?
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On March 03 2008 10:56 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2008 10:54 starrek wrote:i love zulu_nation8 everyone else suck penis How could you forget?
sorry, edited
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EPT
