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Taiche
France1963 Posts
A big problem when it comes when making third-party applications for gamers is that very often there is no specific need. You don't see people asking around for some tool that would ease their lives. There are some well-known cases where there is a need (anti-hacks are a perfect example) but most of the time programmers just have to come up with their own idea, build a tool about it, submit it to the audience and wait to see if it works. That's a kind of a big commitment if you ask me because designing and building a software can be quite time consuming, so the original programmer(s) can't afford to make a mistake.
However, I have seen that most of the time the public is happy with the provided tool unless it's really crappy/counter-intuitive/really useless. What can we conclude from this observation ? Either the users are really kind and praise for any tool even if they don't use it (which I doubt) or the tool fills a need the users had not expressed. Maybe there are other explanations but this one seems quite likely to me.
So this leads me to wonder where the problem is. Are people unable to express a need ? Or don't they know what they want ? Or maybe they are too passive to just ask for something ? I don't think so. But the first question is : when people need something, who can they ask for it and/or where ? Here's the thing : there is no real place where people will submit their ideas and opinions about SC tools. Sure, a good topic pops from time to time in the Brood War forum but it's kinda rare ; a good example is the Replay P2P Software topic bine created like one year ago (more on this specific subject below). I am also tempted to suggest that the BWProgrammers.com community exists as well but people don't go there very often.
Figure 1 : an average day on BWProgrammers.com
Another concern is that maybe users think programmers won't listen or won't have time to spend on their ideas. The problem here is I partially agree with that statement ; it's true that programmers do that on their spare time and it's likely they don't have much time of their own. And sometimes, good ideas will not become a reality like the P2P software above. People have given great ideas or advices, others even started some prototype of their own. But nothing came up. No motivation, maybe no leader for the project, I don't know. I remember having thought it was a great project where I would have been much more involved with if I had had enough time back then. Considering this failure, it's no wonder people hesitate to share their ideas with the rest of the community.
So what can we do about it ? I for myself believe actions should be taken on both sides : users should post more requests on big or dedicated websites (mainly TL.net, GG.net, BWP) even if they will maybe not be concretized one day and programmers should start working as a team or at least be able to give an answer to the users. Debates must take place between needers and makers so that they can understand each other and good tools will naturally come out from this.
 
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I would really and I mean really appriciate a software that increases the friend list. 50 would be enough I guess.
Nice read.
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United States3826 Posts
(though i know this may not be the place for it, i'm going to throw out a program idea i've wanted for a while.)
one thing that always bugged me about bwchart is how close the Build Order feature is to being amazingly useful. by itself, it allows you to see the % of use each build order gets: not really all that useful.
i think an extremely useful program would be one that uses the same idea as bwchart's build order feature, that is, includes buildings, research, upgrades, that kinda thing, but allows you to sort the replays by build order. if you could narrow it down, maybe even specify the kind of build order you're looking for, it would allow players to fine tune their own builds by looking at well-executed builds from a replay pack.
what i mean is, if you could find the build order you're looking for, say a 2 hatch muta build, and only show only the replays that use this build so that you can watch and observe a better player's execution, well... that would be awesome.
(if you can already do this in bwchart, i would feel like a jackass)
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
yubee : yeah, BWChart 1.03G knows about Build Orders but as you state it's kinda useless. What bugs me with it is it's some sort of "simple" BO thing because you will see things like "Gateway -> Assimilator -> Core -> etc..." but not "2 hatch muta" or "10 gate, 12 assim, 13 core, 15 goon". It's a "dumb" list.
I have already thought of making something for BOs in RepASM and ReXplorer ; the fact is some other talented programmer has offered his help on this matter and we will work together as soon as his job gives him more time (he works for a game company and the game is to be released soon).
So something is in the making for this but in the meantime there is "only" BWChart's feature. I will first release a new version of ReXplorer and then start working on this. So I don't think it will happen before October/November.
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United States3826 Posts
On August 17 2007 20:55 Taiche wrote:
yubee : yeah, BWChart 1.03G knows about Build Orders but as you state it's kinda useless. What bugs me with it is it's some sort of "simple" BO thing because you will see things like "Gateway -> Assimilator -> Core -> etc..." but not "2 hatch muta" or "10 gate, 12 assim, 13 core, 15 goon". It's a "dumb" list.
I have already thought of making something for BOs in RepASM and ReXplorer ; the fact is some other talented programmer has offered his help on this matter and we will work together as soon as his job gives him more time (he works for a game company and the game is to be released soon).
So something is in the making for this but in the meantime there is "only" BWChart's feature. I will first release a new version of ReXplorer and then start working on this. So I don't think it will happen before October/November. awesome :D
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
A little thing that's bothered me about BWChart is how it can seemingly detect null actions, but then in the "Units" page it has ridiculously insane numbers of units built, way over the top, presumably because it's counting up all the null actions and including them in the "number of units built".
I mean, still, Taiche, you should be happy that people aren't complaining. You play BW too - do you see anything that we really *need* a third-party program for any more? We've got auto replay saving, live APM, the amazing BWChart - if you, in your BW experience, don't feel a particular need, we probably won't either =D
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I believe the issue is that users don't ask for tools enough, I've seen countless of suggestions; any half witted ninny can suggest an improvement to a game. But the problem seems that there doesn't exist a real market to see a continual development of tools, no financial or valuable incentive to spend several hours/days to professionally design and implement a tool and see it through to completion and then maintain it afterwards. The majority of tools you see are made out of interest and sooner or later that interest will go away either by lack of motivation or the programming talent moves onto new areas of interest.
Perhaps a centralized message board will help people to collaborate on bigger and better tools as a community but it will still embark on a similar course that will not last without the sustaining incentive to help one value the effort. Sadly its how this capitalistic world works and why utopian societies do not last.
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good post and this really makes me miss penguin plug 
so many cool features (replays with text, autosave, and BW observer) rolled into one that i really miss in this current patch
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
On August 17 2007 22:04 GrandInquisitor wrote:
A little thing that's bothered me about BWChart is how it can seemingly detect null actions, but then in the "Units" page it has ridiculously insane numbers of units built, way over the top, presumably because it's counting up all the null actions and including them in the "number of units built".
Yeah, I agree on this one. The null actions are generally irrelevant anyway.
On August 17 2007 22:04 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I mean, still, Taiche, you should be happy that people aren't complaining. You play BW too - do you see anything that we really *need* a third-party program for any more? We've got auto replay saving, live APM, the amazing BWChart - if you, in your BW experience, don't feel a particular need, we probably won't either =D
There are tons of things I can see as "needed" :D People just don't really see them because crutches have been found but there is definitely room for improvement.
Like finding a replay on your hard drive. What can you do ? Well you have to run BWChart, make him parse your several GBs of replays and... now what ? If you want a replay with a specific player or a specific map, it's easy. For a specific matchup, it's a bit harder. But if you want the replay of "that toss player that proxy robo this terran on LT", then you're screwed.
Or even to upload replays, there is no simple website. People use YousendIt/Megaupload/etc... but there is nothing that lets the end-user know "hey it's a TvZ with Iloveoov and July on Gaia".
I can see maaaaany things to improve on the single replays topic, so I suppose there are others to be made in the other topics 
[QUOTE]On August 17 2007 22:05 aka_star wrote:
I believe the issue is that users don't ask for tools enough, I've seen countless of suggestions; any half witted ninny can suggest an improvement to a game. But the problem seems that there doesn't exist a real market to see a continual development of tools, no financial or valuable incentive to spend several hours/days to professionally design and implement a tool and see it through to completion and then maintain it afterwards. The majority of tools you see are made out of interest and sooner or later that interest will go away either by lack of motivation or the programming talent moves onto new areas of interest.
[/quotemsg]
I partially agree. Yeah, the point in 3rd-party applications is that they generally are made for free. The thing is programmers' life can be made easier if the editor (Blizzard here) doesn't close all doors. But I will discuss this in a future post 
[QUOTE]On August 17 2007 22:05 aka_star wrote:
Perhaps a centralized message board will help people to collaborate on bigger and better tools as a community but it will still embark on a similar course that will not last without the sustaining incentive to help one value the effort. Sadly its how this capitalistic world works and why utopian societies do not last.[/QUOTE]
Yes and no. Yes, the problem of time/effort is partly caused by the economic problem. However, I still think it's not the sole factor in the lack of cooperation between users and developers
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On August 17 2007 22:04 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I mean, still, Taiche, you should be happy that people aren't complaining. You play BW too - do you see anything that we really *need* a third-party program for any more? We've got auto replay saving, live APM, the amazing BWChart - if you, in your BW experience, don't feel a particular need, we probably won't either =D
I think we need a replay slot maker, which I said I'd make a while back and just remembered Let me get on that
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
I always had the conception that such programmers really shouldn't be bothered :O
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
Well, it depends on how the things are said but most of the time I don't think requests for features will be rejected. I mean, some of RepASM/ReXplorer's features exist because people asked for them : minimap, actions' list, map extraction... these were all requests we've received in our Inbox.
Now for completely new projects (like the P2P one), I really think no one will be bothered at all. On the contrary, that might encourage people to make or help making them
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BWTV - the community utopia ;>
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On August 17 2007 23:01 Taiche wrote:Well, it depends on how the things are said but most of the time I don't think requests for features will be rejected. I mean, some of RepASM/ReXplorer's features exist because people asked for them : minimap, actions' list, map extraction... these were all requests we've received in our Inbox. Now for completely new projects (like the P2P one), I really think no one will be bothered at all. On the contrary, that might encourage people to make or help making them
Agreed. I for one would love to see more requests, as although I enjoy making the programs, the biggest hurdle is finding something to do
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nice to see this getting more interesting/involved
a good note about this is that no request also is usually a negative feedback, as it seems there is no interest in the work [but when tools appear, they are appreciated].
unluckily, big projects dont seem to be coming, but a big bad universal launcher with plug in support [what bwlauncher is/was but with more support] would be the ultimate tool. in the meantime, i think that the bigger friend list is nice. and enhanced chatting features too [but i think they already are some out there... can't remember now, i am not playing much lately]
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On August 17 2007 20:37 yubee wrote:
(though i know this may not be the place for it, i'm going to throw out a program idea i've wanted for a while.)
one thing that always bugged me about bwchart is how close the Build Order feature is to being amazingly useful. by itself, it allows you to see the % of use each build order gets: not really all that useful.
i think an extremely useful program would be one that uses the same idea as bwchart's build order feature, that is, includes buildings, research, upgrades, that kinda thing, but allows you to sort the replays by build order. if you could narrow it down, maybe even specify the kind of build order you're looking for, it would allow players to fine tune their own builds by looking at well-executed builds from a replay pack.
what i mean is, if you could find the build order you're looking for, say a 2 hatch muta build, and only show only the replays that use this build so that you can watch and observe a better player's execution, well... that would be awesome.
(if you can already do this in bwchart, i would feel like a jackass)
lmrb can do this, but it's kinda hard to use.
What I'd really like to see is a combination of lmrb's replay browsing with BWChart's analysis/charts. BWChart has so much potential, it's a shame it hasn't been updated in ages.
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Short Story Of The Big Failure
Well, I'm that guy who committed himself to build that P2P software. So what was the main problem ? So the major problem was architecture of the network (P2P network ala Napster or fully or semifully distributed network) and every single architecture had pros and cons but I didn't know how it will be popular so it was nearly impossible to decide which one to choose.
This lead me to trying a lot of things like building my prototype from scratch (which was pretty useless) or modding the eMule, or DC++ client (StrongDC++ to be specific)
And there is another thing (which is probably directly interconnected with issues and is "Root of all evil" ). I get excited very easily. So I suddenly got this "great" idea to make that software integrated in to the Starcraft. It should have been something like distributed file system so you will browse your replays with all that fancy stuff like apm, match-up and so on displayed but you won't recognize if that file is on your HDD. So i decided to use eDonkey2000 code from eMule (which would still require a lot of modding) started to reverse engineering (lol I hope i don't sound like Tiger ) Starcraft but then I realized that this will take years to do and will be already obsolete (StarCraft 2). So I lost motivation and drive.
I did a lot of work but nothing is done or even remotely useful, but I've learned a lot of things in the process, but I feel really sorry that this project failed because of me. But once again it was valuable experience for me.
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
This post was in no way meant to put the blame on you (or whoever), sundance I definitely know what it's like to get very excited about a project and lose the motivation quickly. Don't worry about that anyway.
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On August 20 2007 22:40 Taiche wrote:This post was in no way meant to put the blame on you (or whoever), sundance I definitely know what it's like to get very excited about a project and lose the motivation quickly. Don't worry about that anyway.
Yes, I know
But I just felt the urge to explain some things and this was good opportunity because for some reason I don't like starting new threads (hijackers ftw ! )
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hi taiche,
i also write some scripts here and there, mostly just web cgi stuff, interacting with databases and such for bghers.com. i also found hard to get feedback from users but part of the problem was because my programs lacked a way that users could immediately comment on them.
perhaps with your software, you might pop up a window to force users to enter some comments after the Xth time it has been loaded. make the comment interactive in that they cant just click "ok" and get rid of it. i mean i know a lot of people wont bother but the software is provided free of charge, it is the LEAST they can do...
i guess thats it for now, keep up the great work!
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
Thanks
About your popup idea, I'm not sure annoyances will make people want to use or support your program because if I used a program with such things, I would think twice before installing it :D
And I don't really want "forced" feedback too ; I think people that will give the most interesting advices are the ones who really enjoy what you did and feel free to contact you to make sure their opinion is heard.
I've already been contacted in this regard and my post was more about changing the general attitude so that discussion between programmers and users becomes a natural thing more than a shy, embarrassed one.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8784/desertwy6.jpg)
