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Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-16 21:11:21
September 16 2017 20:55 GMT
#1
I was very excited to hear of Starcraft Remastered, and though the release was/is a bit buggy, it's been really great to be playing and thinking about Brood War like this again. Combine that with the ability to watch the best players in the world stream their games live daily, it's a great time to be a Brood War fan.

Back in the day, I used to make blog posts about my experience on iCCup, detailing my thoughts and reflecting on strengths and weaknesses in my play to improve myself. I also use it as a way to open up discussion about improving my play, and get feedback from the community. Since I'm playing Brood War again with SC:R, I figured I'll get back to making these reports occasionally.


Since starting to play again, I've been getting a lot better at having a game plan when I play, but not always great at executing it. I've practiced builds against the computer some, and I have to say I was surprised at how much it helped. Things like starting my Lair as soon as I have 100 gas, starting Ling Speed as soon as I have the next hundred, starting Spire as soon as Lair finishes, and keeping a better watch on my supply and knowing when I should be building Overlords to keep from getting supply blocked. Very basic things that can really smooth out gameplay and make a big difference.

Practicing against the CPU also helped me a lot mechanically. Just rebuilding fluency with basic management like sending drones to gather, making buildings, and macroing helped quite a bit, and I noticed that since I've done that, my APM rose significantly. My APM in gameplay went from the 140~170 range to the 180~210 range after only about an hour of practicing mechanics against a CPU, and I'm just consistently faster now. To anyone trying to get better or trying to shake off the rust, I highly recommend it.


Let's just get started:

1v1 ranked analysis:

Zerg(67 games)
(22)ZvT: 15- 7 68.2%
(25)ZvZ: 19- 6 76.0%
(20)ZvP: 9-11 45.0%

Overall 43-24 64.2%


The first thing I notice is that my winrate is much higher than it was back in the day. In my iCCup games of old, my winrate would usually be somewhere between 25 and 40 percent. I imagine my increased success is largely due to the influx of newer players.

The second thing is that, as usual, ZvP is my biggest weakness. It kind of sucks that, as a result of the automatchmaking and ranking system, my performance in ZvT and ZvZ will result in me playing against Protosses who are generally better than I am at ZvP.


ZvT: I've done relatively well in ZvT so far. Some of my wins came from my opponent clearly having trouble multitasking, others from knowing how to react to the things I scout from the Terran. I have run into a lot of one base openings from Terrans on the ladder. Fast +1 bio timing attacks, 2 port wraith, 1 base fast mnm dropship, things like that.

Quite often, I shut down their 1 base shenanigans, and then I'm very far ahead and close out the game shortly after. One build that has been giving me trouble though is a fast 2 port wraith into bio switch. I shut down the wraith opening well enough, and watching the replays afterward I'd say I'm noticeably ahead afterward, but I need to be better at scouting their army comp afterward. For some reason I expect them to keep going wraiths, or follow up with mech. I guess I don't know why, because it makes no sense to do so after I shut them down with a few hydras. Anyway, after a few wraiths they switch to bio+tank, then move out and roll my army which is mostly hydras. So that's something I definitely need to improve on.

If the ZvT plays out more normally, I still do okay, though I need to work on my macro. Interestingly, I build the right buildings, and I even am able to spend my money and make macro hatches as needed, but I often don't build the right units. I research lurker tech, but I only make a couple lurkers, and then pretty much never make lurkers again. I get a defiler mound, but I often never actually make defilers. Honestly most of the "standard" ZvTs that I've won, I've basically just made a flock of mutas and a ton of lings and won that way. So I definitely need to practice up building and using the right units, not just getting the tech.

P.S. Cracklings are just great.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



ZvZ: I've done pretty well in my ZvZs, largely attributed to many newer players on ladder not understanding how ZvZ works. Of my losses, 2 were me matching up against Random and scouting them last, which kind of seems like an automatic loss in ZvZ.

Other than that, while I've fared pretty well, my ling control could definitely be a lot better, and I need to get better at working in and controlling scourge in the muta fights.


ZvP: ZvP has always been my worst matchup. I've spent some time learning what I should do and when in order to start games out right, and that has gone well. Not super great. But sometimes I deflect their zealot attack and seem to be in pretty good shape. Quite often what I do then is rally my hatches to their natural and move out with a bunch of hydras and some lings and try to break the Protoss. But that never works. Psi storm shreds me to pieces, and I end up having to back off. If instead I macro up, they move out with zealot/dragoon/archon/high templar, and the Psi Storm shreds me anyways. It's tough to get the right timing to build mutas to snipe templar, because they are quite an investment. I don't usually have 900/900 lying around to make mutas with, and they're not really great at fighting aside from sniping templar. But honestly the templar will just use their psi storms on the mutas before they die, and I'll lose my mutas. Am I really coming out ahead by handing them 900/900 in exchange for (hopefully all) their storms?

Aside from that, in general it's just kind of tough to control a larger army at that point in the game. I really don't have much success in the ZvP matchup. Most of my ZvP wins are against players that I can outmacro to the point that I can build whatever I want pretty much and win. Sometimes I think I should try going 3hatch muta with some scourge to pressure them in a more manageable way, but the 3hatch spire into 5hatch hydra macro has been the standard for a long time, so I imagine it's pretty good.

On the positive side, by practicing against the CPU and watching Jaedong's F rank tutorial video, my early game ZvP is better than it ever has been. Things like knowing when I should build lings and how many seem obvious to me now, but those early zealots were a huge problem that would throw me off my game in the past.


Questions:

ZvT:
1. When Terran opens with wraiths, I get a few hydras. I realized the first couple times I died to the bio switch that I'd been overmaking hydras, and need to scout if/when they tech switch (and to what) before committing too much to hydras. But what about upgrades? I've been getting hydra ups in these scenarios (speed, then range). I feel like if they're going to transition into bio, these are costly and I shouldn't be investing into hydras like this. However, I know I've watched Jaedong get hydra range against a wraith opening. Do I just get hydra range to defend, and only get hydra speed if the Terran goes mech? Or should I defend the wraiths without getting either upgrade until I get more information.
2. Related to question 1, how do I get scouting information against a Terran who opens wraiths? They of course kill my overlords. Lings might be able to check how many marines they have and/or if they have medics, but I still have no way to tell if they're going to follow up with dropship, or a quick siege push, or what.
3. How do you keep making the right composition of units through the midgame? One idea I had is that one of my hatcheries should pretty much just pump hydras to make into lurkers, that way I will have a steady supply of lurkers and not forget to make them. Is this reasonable? Or should I just be making a certain number of lurkers while I tech to hive anyway, and shouldn't be thinking of it in terms of a constant flow?

ZvZ:
1. When is the right time to make scourge generally, and how many? Should I wait until I don't have enough minerals to build mutas? Should I be aiming for a ratio of muta to scourge, like 2:1?
2. Are there any good ZvRandom builds? Do I just need to send out a drone super early to scout?

ZvP:
1. I'm kind of at a loss against ZvP. I guess... what beats psi storm?
2. If you wanna practice your PvZ against me, let me know.

General:
1. What's your favorite matchup and why? I've seen a lot of people complain that there are no Zergs on ladder, but I certainly haven't experienced that. However, ZvZ is my least favorite matchup (of the Zerg matchups). It's just too one-dimensional. At least it's short though.
2. Back in the day, there was a program or something that let you see the players, races, colors, and a picture of the map just from clicking a replay file in windows. Does anybody know what that was? Going through replays by opening them is really inefficient.

As always questions, comments and constructive criticism welcome.

*****
JWD[9]
Profile Blog Joined November 2015
364 Posts
September 16 2017 21:49 GMT
#2
If you go observer hunting with scourge, can Lurkers force Protoss to waste Psistorms?

Day[9] said something about how to use Psistorm. Never storm a moving unit, wait until the armies are engaged. So what if instead of attacking Protoss, you just dance, run around like a headless chicking, until storms are weathered?

I am actually on the otherside of your Problem, I have the worst Storms. But mostly because I try to storm moving things all the time.

cheers
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
September 16 2017 22:40 GMT
#3
On September 17 2017 06:49 JWD[9] wrote:
If you go observer hunting with scourge, can Lurkers force Protoss to waste Psistorms?

Day[9] said something about how to use Psistorm. Never storm a moving unit, wait until the armies are engaged. So what if instead of attacking Protoss, you just dance, run around like a headless chicking, until storms are weathered?

I am actually on the otherside of your Problem, I have the worst Storms. But mostly because I try to storm moving things all the time.

cheers


These are good points. I do need to be better at moving on to other tech and not just massing hydras for too long. Lurkers do take 2 storms to clear if there's no observer, so they can be a pretty good answer. Honestly now that you mention it, that's a pretty good answer. After I fend off the initial attack, I've been trying to break them, but can't. If I just contain them for a while with lurkers instead, I could generate a pretty good advantage.

As for dancing to bait storms, that could work, but if I'm just dancing and not actually attacking, they don't really need to do anything do they? Meanwhile I might be taking free shots from dragoons or something. In general fights in the middle of the map, if I'm dancing instead of fighting, I'm definitely taking damage from dragoons, and letting zealots close in on me.

I think the thing I should focus on is moving to lurkers and continuing to macro and tech after holding off the initial zealot attack.

Thanks for the input.
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-21 21:21:06
September 21 2017 16:34 GMT
#4
I don't know if you ever played TvZ, but to me, ZvP feels quite similar, both require you to scout and respond accordingly, both allow you to use a variety of builds, both have somewhat fragile but powerful armies, and both benefit from higher apm (I find that my apm naturally rises when playing these matchups compared to some others), and both try to limit the other race's number of expos, or slow the rate of expansion.

You can use you knowledge of ZvT in reverse (ie. TvZ) to figure out what's going on in ZvP. You just gotta learn the responses, tactics, strategies and builds best suited for the situation at hand. There are many different niche things you can do to overcome different things, and you don't see many of those in pro games - you just gotta play over and over, and experiment/think a bit, and as you find these solutions, your understanding and winrate will increase. Don't get me wrong, progamer builds are great, but they're too streamlined and harder to apply to the craziness and variety that ladder games exibit.

ZvT:
1) Generally it's pretty good to get just a handful of hydras and upgrade speed. If the terran is going heavily into wraiths, then range is also very good. My response to 2 port wraith is expanding, getting some speed hydras and overlords. They can't both harass you and prevent you from expanding, thus you gain extra income to deal with their switch. You gotta scout the switch so you know if you need lurkers. Sometimes you can blind counter them since the most common followup is 2 dropships of mm, prepare for it and then counter hard (they won't have many units since they're 1 base and were building paper airplanes the whole game), or if you can't kill them, slow down their expo, while you expand.

Getting evo chamber upgrades at the start isn't that important vs the bio followup, but if you scout them going mech, you can get them faster if you want (maybe +1 air carapace too if you plan on mutas later, fueled by the expo(s) you took).

2) Lings usually. Very often it's just enough to get at the top of their ramp, it's not that easy completely hiding your build on 1 base. If they go a mm + tank push, they're very likely to not have many units. You just overwhelm them with hydras/lings and maybe a few lurks. Get into a good position near your base and surround them when they come - on some maps with bridges on nats, like Destination, you can instead slow them down by camping the other side of their bridge, and retreating a bit when they siege up on the other side, then when their units start funneling trough in an unorganized fashion, you let most of his army to the other side and strike while some are derping on the bridge and before he gets time to organize the units that passed over the other side.

3) I think this comes down to experience, understanding and responding correctly, similarly to skill of knowing when to drone and when to make units.

ZvZ, I'm not very good at it, but here are my thoughts:
1) Depends very much on the level of your micro, but usually a few scourge are good at the start when the muta count is quite low (like 4). At that stage of the game scourge are very cost effective and will give you a slight economic lead if you land them well (usually 1 on each muta, sometimes 2 on 1) They're also good later on when big muta fights happen (like 2+ groups), because it's hard to control and micro that many mutas, so they're bound to hit something more often than not, if they come from a good angle during the start of the fight.
2) I find that 12p speed is good, if you take drones off gas after speed starts, it's a pretty decent build against all races imo. Keep building lings and send first 2 to scout each main not covered by your lord. I usually build 10 if I see a toss fe, and try to run by or kill it if it's a bad wall (or just 1 cannon), vs good walls, you can just camp outside and prevent scouting, allowing you to do whatever you want, and placing the toss on the back foot since he doesn't know if a hydra bust, mutas or something else is coming, so they have to cover everything, making them weaker. Taking drones off gas gets you an extra hatchery, and it's not a bad idea to just place it next to your starting hatchery if you're scared of some zvz ling 9p shenaningans or 2g p. With this you can afford a 3rd hat at your nat pretty easily if needed too. The beauty of this build is that you don't need to send a drone scout, as your overlord and first 2 lings do all the scouting, and you threaten the other player, and deny scouting. There's a lot more details that go into executing this, but I dont want to go on rambling forever, so I'll stop here.

ZvP:
1) lol kinda too broad of a question, or too vague. I could say micro, macro, tech, strategy, tactics.

General:
My favorite matchup is either TvZ or ZvP. There's so much variety in them, and they are very apm intensive, so I feel really good when I manage to macro well, it's really satisfying because it's hard. I used to be very good at ZvP, and knew a lot more about it that I discovered on my own, but I forgot a lot, so now it's probably TvZ.

The problem with "no zergs" on the ladder is in the map pool. There actually are zergs out there, but you rarely meet them, unless you play zerg. Zergs ban maps that terrans and tosses like, and terrans and tosses ban maps that zergs like, so it's hard to meet each other since they pretty much don't have many common maps that both play. This results in many ZvZs and TvT/TvP/PvP matchups. This is something I hate about the current map pool and matchmaking system, since I don't like ZvZ. There are many details in ZvZ to learn and execute, but I loathe to learn them all since in any case I can just to make 1 micro mistake or bad call and die. The one nice benefit of ZvZ though, is that matches are very short, so if you play you can quickly raise trough the ranks to your real level, while for other matchups it's slower. Plus, you can practice more games in less time. I knew a guy on iCCup that would just play ZvZ if he could, to quickly raise to his level each season, and then starting to play the other matchups after that.

There were plugins for windows explorer right click menu, but you're probably thinking of bwchart and it's feature where you can make it read a whole replay folder, and it would list all matches, races, maps, players, apms, positions, colors, opening builds. Then you could filter the list to find the replays to find the ones you want.

There's also bwrepinfo, which is famous for displaying effective apm (eapm), and being a simple and clean program. I doesn't have many of the features that bwchart has, but as I got better, I started preferring it over bwchart more and more.
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-22 04:29:21
September 22 2017 04:27 GMT
#5
On September 22 2017 01:34 quirinus wrote:
I don't know if you ever played TvZ, but to me, ZvP feels quite similar, both require you to scout and respond accordingly, both allow you to use a variety of builds, both have somewhat fragile but powerful armies, and both benefit from higher apm (I find that my apm naturally rises when playing these matchups compared to some others), and both try to limit the other race's number of expos, or slow the rate of expansion.

You can use you knowledge of ZvT in reverse (ie. TvZ) to figure out what's going on in ZvP. You just gotta learn the responses, tactics, strategies and builds best suited for the situation at hand. There are many different niche things you can do to overcome different things, and you don't see many of those in pro games - you just gotta play over and over, and experiment/think a bit, and as you find these solutions, your understanding and winrate will increase. Don't get me wrong, progamer builds are great, but they're too streamlined and harder to apply to the craziness and variety that ladder games exibit.


I know exactly what you mean. Sometimes it seems hard to practice builds because opponents are always doing some sort of shenanigans.


ZvT:
1) Generally it's pretty good to get just a handful of hydras and upgrade speed. If the terran is going heavily into wraiths, then range is also very good. My response to 2 port wraith is expanding, getting some speed hydras and overlords. They can't both harass you and prevent you from expanding, thus you gain extra income to deal with their switch. You gotta scout the switch so you know if you need lurkers. Sometimes you can blind counter them since the most common followup is 2 dropships of mm, prepare for it and then counter hard (they won't have many units since they're 1 base and were building paper airplanes the whole game), or if you can't kill them, slow down their expo, while you expand.


Yeah, either dropships of mnm, or just a quick push sometimes is how they always followed up. I will keep that in mind.


Getting evo chamber upgrades at the start isn't that important vs the bio followup, but if you scout them going mech, you can get them faster if you want (maybe +1 air carapace too if you plan on mutas later, fueled by the expo(s) you took).

2) Lings usually. Very often it's just enough to get at the top of their ramp, it's not that easy completely hiding your build on 1 base. If they go a mm + tank push, they're very likely to not have many units. You just overwhelm them with hydras/lings and maybe a few lurks. Get into a good position near your base and surround them when they come - on some maps with bridges on nats, like Destination, you can instead slow them down by camping the other side of their bridge, and retreating a bit when they siege up on the other side, then when their units start funneling trough in an unorganized fashion, you let most of his army to the other side and strike while some are derping on the bridge and before he gets time to organize the units that passed over the other side.

3) I think this comes down to experience, understanding and responding correctly, similarly to skill of knowing when to drone and when to make units.


Yeah, I've been going into my games lately with a bit more of a focus on making sure I make the right kinds of units, not just simply spending my larva on whatever (usually lings vT or hydras vP). It's been a bit sloppy controlling the different types of units, but pretty good overall.


ZvZ, I'm not very good at it, but here are my thoughts:
1) Depends very much on the level of your micro, but usually a few scourge are good at the start when the muta count is quite low (like 4). At that stage of the game scourge are very cost effective and will give you a slight economic lead if you land them well (usually 1 on each muta, sometimes 2 on 1) They're also good later on when big muta fights happen (like 2+ groups), because it's hard to control and micro that many mutas, so they're bound to hit something more often than not, if they come from a good angle during the start of the fight.
2) I find that 12p speed is good, if you take drones off gas after speed starts, it's a pretty decent build against all races imo. Keep building lings and send first 2 to scout each main not covered by your lord. I usually build 10 if I see a toss fe, and try to run by or kill it if it's a bad wall (or just 1 cannon), vs good walls, you can just camp outside and prevent scouting, allowing you to do whatever you want, and placing the toss on the back foot since he doesn't know if a hydra bust, mutas or something else is coming, so they have to cover everything, making them weaker. Taking drones off gas gets you an extra hatchery, and it's not a bad idea to just place it next to your starting hatchery if you're scared of some zvz ling 9p shenaningans or 2g p. With this you can afford a 3rd hat at your nat pretty easily if needed too. The beauty of this build is that you don't need to send a drone scout, as your overlord and first 2 lings do all the scouting, and you threaten the other player, and deny scouting. There's a lot more details that go into executing this, but I dont want to go on rambling forever, so I'll stop here.


Thanks I will try that opening next time I run into a Random


ZvP:
1) lol kinda too broad of a question, or too vague. I could say micro, macro, tech, strategy, tactics.

General:
My favorite matchup is either TvZ or ZvP. There's so much variety in them, and they are very apm intensive, so I feel really good when I manage to macro well, it's really satisfying because it's hard. I used to be very good at ZvP, and knew a lot more about it that I discovered on my own, but I forgot a lot, so now it's probably TvZ.

The problem with "no zergs" on the ladder is in the map pool. There actually are zergs out there, but you rarely meet them, unless you play zerg. Zergs ban maps that terrans and tosses like, and terrans and tosses ban maps that zergs like, so it's hard to meet each other since they pretty much don't have many common maps that both play. This results in many ZvZs and TvT/TvP/PvP matchups. This is something I hate about the current map pool and matchmaking system, since I don't like ZvZ. There are many details in ZvZ to learn and execute, but I loathe to learn them all since in any case I can just to make 1 micro mistake or bad call and die. The one nice benefit of ZvZ though, is that matches are very short, so if you play you can quickly raise trough the ranks to your real level, while for other matchups it's slower. Plus, you can practice more games in less time. I knew a guy on iCCup that would just play ZvZ if he could, to quickly raise to his level each season, and then starting to play the other matchups after that.


I guess I'm not sure, but I didn't think that's how ladder matching works. It matches players of similar rating/ping, then chooses a map randomly from the maps that neither player has vetoed. Then again, there are 6 maps and each player can veto 3, so I'm not sure what happens then (probably just chooses a map randomly in the case that all 6 maps have been vetoed by one player).

Anyway the point is, I'm pretty sure it matches people by rating/ping, then chooses a map. I don't think map preference affects who you get matched up with.


There were plugins for windows explorer right click menu, but you're probably thinking of bwchart and it's feature where you can make it read a whole replay folder, and it would list all matches, races, maps, players, apms, positions, colors, opening builds. Then you could filter the list to find the replays to find the ones you want.

There's also bwrepinfo, which is famous for displaying effective apm (eapm), and being a simple and clean program. I doesn't have many of the features that bwchart has, but as I got better, I started preferring it over bwchart more and more.


I had those, but reXplorer is the one I was thinking of. Sadly it seems like it's lost now. Download links are all dead, and the original host site seems like it's gone.

Thanks for your thoughts.

edit: Actually, it looks like one can still get reXplorer from people, but it only works for Windows XP. Too bad.
chozen86
Profile Blog Joined May 2017
United States60 Posts
October 21 2017 20:55 GMT
#6
I'd be up for practicing ZVP, if I'm not too far below your skill level. Just started playing in April/May, no real prior RTS experience. I'm at ~130 APM, and a ~30% winrate for PVZ. I'm decent at casting storm, and at executing the +1 Sair/Speedlot (aka Neobisu) build (e.g., can push out with 6+ +1 speedlots by ~6:30-7:00). Am looking to get better at the variety of early-game shenanigans Zerg can throw at me (e.g., mass muta, hydra bust), and learn a couple new builds (e.g., 2-gate pressure, 4-gate 2 archon, Sair/DT).
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