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What were the most competitive groups of deaths in history?
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/DKwlv.jpg)
We could immediate zone in on some of the more memorable ones like the group of death found in Olympus OGN StarLeague, or the infamous group of death created during ABCMart MSL, but I decided to be a little more clinical with the process.
I didn't want to fall into the following pit-traps:
1) Groups of deaths with only one or two players performing fantastically at the time being rated highly. I wanted a system that would punish certain groups for not having the highest level of players across the board.
2) Groups of deaths with legacy players being grouped together after their peak years as top professionals being rated highly. I didn't want a list of famous names, but a system that would actually reward groups of deaths that had the toughest competition for that moment in time, not compilation of famous names.
3) Groups of deaths full of quality players who were proving their worth elsewhere, but were next to useless when it actually came to performing in the major individual leagues. I wanted reward groups that actually had players who were doing well in the major individual leagues at that moment in time, not a bunch of under-achieving superstars.
4) Groups of deaths that are hard to predict just because everybody is so close to each other without actually having any outstanding players being rated highly. I wanted to figure out collective worth of the group of death by tallying the outstanding individual league placements of that specific era.
Although it's far from perfect, I decided to select the five toughest group of deaths in history by the following criteria:
1) Only groups of four deciding the fate of those who were in the round of sixteen or below will be selected.
2) Each player in the group of death will have their placement in the individual league tracked.
3) First of all, I will note how far all four players ended up in the individual league where the group of death took place.
4) I will look at their placement for the corresponding season of OGN StarLeague, or MSL, depending on which individual league the group of death took place.
5) I will look into their placements in the individual leagues of the season leading up to the season which had the group of death.
6) I will also look into their placements in the individual leagues of the season following the season which had the group of death.
7) Ideally speaking, there should be six individual leagues ready for assessment, although not all eras had packed individual league schedules meaning that sometimes there will only a couple of individual leagues ready for assessment.
8) Each individual placement will be assigned a point.
9) Any placement below the round of sixteen will be assigned -2 points.
10) A round of sixteen finish will be assigned -1 points.
11) A round of eight finish will be assigned 0 points.
12) A round of four finish will be assigned 1 point.
13) A second place finish will be assigned 2 points.
14) A first place finish will be assigned 3 points.
15) Finally, I will tally the results from all four players, and the group with the highest number of points will be rewarded.
After so much commotion over nothing, here is the final list at last:
5. Group A of Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kyLtOwxC9_A/maxresdefault.jpg)
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): Lost Saga MSL, Batoo OGN StarLeague, Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague, Avalon MSL, EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague, and NATE MSL
Members of the group
Jaedong: 8
EffOrt: -8
Flash: 1
YellOw[ArnC]: -5
Final tally: -4
Context: This was Jaedong at the peak of his powers, and EffOrt was also getting a lot of hype as a potential next superstar of the zerg race. Jaedong picked EffOrt, as if he welcomed the challenge of this would-be usurper of the zerg throne. EffOrt, being a rookie with no fear, picked Flash into his group. Flash was struggling to match his ProLeague heroics with proper individual league results, and vowed to change that trend. As if to punish YellOw[ArnC] for eliminating Flash at the round of 32 in the previous season, Flash picked him to join this group of death.
![[image loading]](http://bntnews.hankyung.com/bntdata/images/photo/200908/ed27b0ad2d49c9179563ccafd1a63fdb.jpg)
YellOw[ArnC] seemed less than thrilled with this group during the selection ceremonies
Funnily enough, Flash was facing what was probably three of the best zerg-versus-terran players at the time, and it would be zerg-versus-zerg prowess that would decide the outcome of the this group, with Flash being a non-factor at this tournament. YellOw[ArnC] ended up as the first placed player in this group, although his third and final game that would decide whether the group would go to tie-breakers was against Jaedong who was already through to the next round with two victories, which may have caused Jaedong to focus his practice time elsewhere.
Jaedong and YellOw[ArnC] would eventually meet in the finals, with Jaedong avenging his defeat in the group stages with a sweep to win his second OGN StarLeague in a row.
4. Group D of 1st KPGA Tournament
![[image loading]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aAduc4qCJ7w/mqdefault.jpg)
Individual leagues that will be checked (4): SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague, 1st KPGA Tournament, NATE OGN StarLeague, and 2nd KPGA Tournament
Members of the group
H.O.T-Forever: 0
Sync: 1
BoxeR: 4
Enough: -7
Final tally: -2
Context: I wasn't an active follower back then, so I can only guess. H.O.T-Forever, the original master of the zerg race, had a habbit of running into his terran teammate, Sync. Poor Enough was squeezed into this group of death that had three players who reached the finals of a major individual league in 2002. All three players would eventually reach the round of eight, thanks to the double-elimination system, and BoxeR went on the win the entire tournament, solidifying his status as the clear number one player of the scene at the time.
3. Group A of IOPS OGN StarLeague
![[image loading]](http://cfile10.uf.tistory.com/image/152E40174AC11EFA186030)
Individual leagues that will be checked (5): EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague, YATGK MSL, IOPS OGN StarLeague, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague, and UZOO MSL
Members of the group
iloveoov: 3
CLon: -9
July: 4
NaDa: 3
Final tally: 1
Context: This tournament marks the end of iloveoo's reign as the clear dominant force in the scene, giving birth to the triumvirate of July, NaDa, and GoRush, who swept everything there was to win in the scene in early 2005. Defiler master CLon started the madness after being picked by iloveoov, by adding July into the mix, who then proceeded to add NaDa to the mix. It was as if collectively, these players thought, "if this can't stop iloveoov, what will?"
NaDa and July advanced from the group as first and second place finishers respectively, and met again in the finals with NaDa sweeping July, avenging July's sweep against NaDa in the semi-finals of KT KTF 2004/2005 Premier League.
2. Group A of Gillette OGN StarLeague
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/YTcVMD-TvGQ/hqdefault.jpg)
Individual leagues that will be checked (5): NHN HanGame OGN StarLeague, CEN Game MSL, Gillette OGN StarLeague, SPRIS MSL, and EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague
Members of the group
Nal_rA: 2
iloveoov: 8
Reach: -1
GoodFriend: -3
Final tally: 6
Context: This was both the highest point of Nal_rA's career, and the beginning of the end of his glory. Nal_rA was on a roll, having conquered both the MSL and OGN StarLeague in recent memory. He reached two finals in a row in tournaments hosted by OGN StarLeague, and wanted to make his case as the best player in the scene.
The problem was, iloveoov was in the way, the super rookie terran who had taken MSL by storm and making a fool out of everyone in the ProLeague and the MBC Game Team Leagues. Not even NaDa could stop him, which was the scariest thing imaginable to many.
Nal_rA boldly answered to the call of his fans to put a stop to all this. He singled out iloveoov, who spiced things up even further by adding Reach, the original protoss superhero. GoodFriend may look like the odd one out here, but GoodFriend was one of the most promising new terran players himself (superlative performances in the ProLeague and semi-final finishes as a rookie was nothing to scoff at), even if iloveoov's godlike streak was stealing his thunder.
![[image loading]](http://thumbnail.egloos.net/460x0/http://pds3.egloos.com/pds/200701/10/35/d0052835_05013221.jpg)
Perhaps there was room for only one true protoss hero
In the end, this tournament marked the rejuvenation of Reach's career, while Nal_rA lost the crown as the golden child of the protoss race that he worked so hard to take from Reach. Both iloveoov and Reach were on their way to meet in the finals, but were thwarted by July, who took out iloveoov in the semi-finals, and Reach in the finals for the first ever zerg triumph in OGN StarLeague's history.
1. Group B of MyCube OGN StarLeague
![[image loading]](https://cdn.mirror.wiki/http://sports.chosun.com/news/entertainment/200502/20050223/52w14002.jpg)
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): Olympus OGN StarLeague, Stout MSL, MyCube OGN StarLeague, TG Sambo MSL, NHN HanGame OGN StarLeague, and CEN Game MSL
Members of the group
YellOw: 0
Nal_rA: 7
NaDa: 4
ChoJJa: -3
Final tally: 10
Context: Wait what? Where's that group of death between Jaedong, Sea, Flash, and Bisu? This is the toughest group of death in history according to my metric, and this would be my reasoning. YellOw was the strongest performing zerg at the time, with ChoJJa trailing behind as the second best zerg at the time, ChoJJa was probably the better performer of the two if you only considered performances in the MSL. NaDa was losing his grip on the throne, but was a second best terran in the world at the worst. Finally, this was when Nal_rA was performing the best in his entire career as the clear number one player of his entire race, perhaps maybe potentially the best overall. The weakest player in this group was ChoJJa, the clear number two zerg player of his time.
As could be expected in such a stacked group, it went to the tie-breakers, with YellOw and Nal_rA advancing as first place and second place respectively. Nal_rA tried his best to become a Royal Roader, but was thwarted by his nemesis Kingdom in the finals, a moment he vowed to never forget ever again.
As an afterthought, here are some of the other potential candidates I looked into, if it is of any interest to anyone. I tried to look into as many candidates as possible, but if there are any noteworthy groups of deaths I missed out on, I'd be happy to hear about it.
+ Show Spoiler +Group A of Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague, NATE MSL, Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1, Hana Daetoo MSL, Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2, and BigFile MSL
Members of the group
Flash: 16
Kwanro: -7
hyvaa: -11
Kal: -4
Final tally: -6
Group A of Olympus OGN StarLeague
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): 4th KPGA Tournament, Panasonic OGN StarLeague, Olympus OGN StarLeague, Stout MSL, MyCube OGN StarLeague, and TG Sambo MSL
Members of the group
NaDa: 7
BoxeR: -1
fOru: -11
Junwi: -2
Final tally: -7
Group F of Avalon MSL
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): Lost Saga MSL, Batoo OGN StarLeague, Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague, Avalon MSL, EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague, and NATE MSL
Members of the group
Leta: -9
FanTaSy: -3
Jaedong: 8
Movie: -8
Final tally: -12
Group D of ABCMart MSL
Individual leagues that will be checked (4): Bacchus 2011 OGN StarLeague, PDPop MSL, ABCMart MSL, and Jin Air OGN StarLeague
Members of the group
Jaedong: 0
Sea: -6
Flash: 0
Bisu: -7
Final tally: -13
Context: Since this is the group most people will associate with when we speak of groups of deaths, I will explain why this group so poorly on my list relative to the expectations. Jaedong and Flash actually had their peaks in 2009, and 2010, respectively. 2011 wasn't their best year by any means. Both Flash and Jaedong were getting knocked out early by random players, and it was the recent memory of these two players demolishing everyone else in the scene for years on end that made this group look so strong. Bisu and Sea were mostly ProLeague-only players by this point, neither having any experience of getting past the round of sixteen for extended periods of time.
I think the reason why this particular group of death was so memorable was because most of the other groups of deaths were out of the participants' own choosing. This group was different because of this was the most notorious case of the higher seeds abusing the drafting method MSL implemented. The finalists of the previous season, colluded with one another to create a super group, and it seemed like hydra was intent on making FanTaSy join the fray also in the place of Sea, but decided not to go all the way with his sinister plan after FanTaSy pleaded that he took part in way too many team kill matches in recent history.
The dramatics of the group stage selection was also memorable enough to be etched on the minds of many, including mine, especially since it was the last ever MSL group selection ceremony in history. Only Jaedong remained stoic, only mentioning that it wasn't his place to question the decision made by the higher seeds. Bisu pleaded for mercy, saying that he didn't want to get eliminated during the inital stages of an individual league yet again, and really wanted out of this particular group. Flash was fuming, and actively displayed displeasure at the actions of the previous season's finalists. Flash would go on to say later during one of his streams that he was going to do the exact same thing to hydra and Great after he managed to get the first seed for the last ever MSL, but never had the chance to exact his revenge. hydra was particularly cruel with Sea, only giving him the option of escaping the group if he was willing to recommend FanTaSy, a teammate of Bisu's, as a member of this group. Sea seemed to be torn at the seams throughout the entire affair, but eventually decided to bite the bullet, even though hydra was chiding him, saying that he wasn't thinking straight.
Group A of Incruit OGN StarLeague
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): EVER 2008 OGN StarLeague, Arena MSL, Incruit OGN StarLeague, Clubday MSL, Lost Saga MSL, and Batoo OGN StarLeague
July: -6
Flash: -3
Bisu: -1
Much: -4
Final tally: -14
Group F of Lost Saga MSL
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): Incruit OGN StarLeague, Clubday MSL, Lost Saga MSL, Batoo OGN StarLeague, Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague, and Avalon MSL
Members of the group
Firebathero: -10
Flash: -6
Hwasin: -6
Jaedong: 2
Final tally: -20
 
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As a side note, groups that contained the eventual finalists of that particular tournament (it does not necessarily mean that these groups were extra-diffcult, because the remaining two players could be total garbage):
1. Group A IOPS OGN StarLeague: NaDa and July (NaDa beats July both in the group stages and the finals)
2. EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: Jaedong and Stork (Jaedong loses to Stork in the group stages but beats him in the finals)
3. Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague: Flash and Stork (Flash loses to Stork in the group stages but beats him in the finals)
4. Incuit OGN StarLeague: Stork and FanTaSy (Stork beats FanTaSy both in the group stages and the finals)
5. Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague: Jaedong and YellOw[ArnC] (Jaedong loses to YellOw[ArnC] in the group stages but beats him in the finals)
MSL never had a group of four that contained two finalists of that specific tournament.
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Group D of ABCMart MSL
Individual leagues that will be checked (4): Bacchus 2011 OGN StarLeague, PDPop MSL, ABCMart MSL, and Jin Air OGN StarLeague
Members of the group
Jaedong: 0
Sea: -6
Flash: 0
Bisu: -7
Final tally: -13
Context: Since this is the group most people will associate with when we speak of groups of deaths, I will explain why this group so poorly on my list relative to the expectations. Jaedong and Flash actually had their peaks in 2009, and 2010, respectively. 2011 wasn't their best year by any means. Both Flash and Jaedong were getting knocked out early by random players, and it was the recent memory of these two players demolishing everyone else in the scene for years on end that made this group look so strong. Bisu and Sea were mostly ProLeague-only players by this point, neither having any experience of getting past the round of sixteen for extended periods of time.
I think the reason why this particular group of death was so memorable was because most of the other groups of deaths were out of the participants' own choosing. This group was different because of this was the most notorious case of the higher seeds abusing the drafting method MSL implemented. The finalists of the previous season, colluded with one another to create a super group, and it seemed like hydra was intent on making FanTaSy join the fray also in the place of Sea, but decided not to go all the way with his sinister plan after FanTaSy pleaded that he took part in way too many team kill matches in recent history.
The dramatics of the group stage selection was also memorable enough to be etched on the minds of many, including mine, especially since it was the last ever MSL group selection ceremony in history. Only Jaedong remained stoic, only mentioning that it wasn't his place to question the decision made by the higher seeds. Bisu pleaded for mercy, saying that he didn't want to get eliminated during the inital stages of an individual league yet again, and really wanted out of this particular group. Flash was fuming, and actively displayed displeasure at the actions of the previous season's finalists. Flash would go on to say later during one of his streams that he was going to do the exact same thing to hydra and Great after he managed to get the first seed for the last ever MSL, but never had the chance to exact his revenge. hydra was particularly cruel with Sea, only giving him the option of escaping the group if he was willing to recommend FanTaSy, a teammate of Bisu's, as a member of this group. Sea seemed to be torn at the seams throughout the entire affair, but eventually decided to bite the bullet, even though hydra was chiding him, saying that he wasn't thinking straight.
The perception on this particular group of death could be warped by the following factors:
1) Groups of deaths with only one or two players performing fantastically at the time being rated highly. I wanted a system that would punish certain groups for not having the highest level of players across the board.
-> Not really.
2) Groups of deaths with legacy players being grouped together after their peak years as top professionals being rated highly. I didn't want a list of famous names, but a system that would actually reward groups of deaths that had the toughest competition for that moment in time, not compilation of famous names.
-> Three gigantic legacy players facing one another after their peak years. The invincible Flash we know of was back in 2010, and he was on the process of being heavily challenged by FanTaSy for the title of the best overall terran player by 2011. Jaedong's peak form was in 2009, and for the first time in a long time, was probably not the best performing zerg player in the scene anymore, a title that was arguably more suited for hydra. Bisu's last ever quarter-finals appearance for his professional career was in mid-2009, and he was mostly a ProLeague phenomenon at this point in time.
3) Groups of deaths full of quality players who were proving their worth elsewhere, but were next to useless when it actually came to performing in the major individual leagues. I wanted reward groups that actually had players who were doing well in the major individual leagues at that moment in time, not a bunch of under-achieving superstars.
-> Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu were still the best performing players in the ProLeauge for their respective races, but the same could not be said for their individual league performances. The last time Flash and Jaedong were clearly the best players of their race across all platforms was in 2010, and for Bisu that was late-2008.
4) Groups of deaths that are hard to predict just because everybody is so close to each other without actually having any outstanding players being rated highly. I wanted to figure out collective worth of the group of death by tallying the outstanding individual league placements of that specific era.
-> Not really.
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I think you might be the best user on the entire site at the moment, spreading the love for the best RTS of all time with statistics and little-remembered facts.
Your posts single-handedly justify the existence of the blog functionality here on TL.
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lol @ group A of the 2009 bacchus OSL. I remember the finals being lackluster with jaedong absolutely steamrolling through yellow, but I forgot how the group stages began. I think it's funny how that each player chosen in that group was because of ego.
Jaedong picks Effort --> Ego
Effort picks Flash --> Ego
Flash picks Yellow --> Ego
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On September 13 2017 23:59 jaeboss wrote:
lol @ group A of the 2009 bacchus OSL. I remember the finals being lackluster with jaedong absolutely steamrolling through yellow, but I forgot how the group stages began. I think it's funny how that each player chosen in that group was because of ego.
Jaedong picks Effort --> Ego
Effort picks Flash --> Ego
Flash picks Yellow --> Ego
I think the competitive groups created in the OGN StarLeague was more bad-ass in general. MSL by the end had so many seeds (a total of eight starting from 2007), and started to group draw at the round of 32 (again a tradition that started from 2007), which meant that it was harder to gather players in peak-form into one group. Further more, the drafting system gave too much power to the higher seeds, allowing them to move around non-seeded players as they wished multiple times. ABCMart MSL group selection is the best example of the higher seeds trying their best to group some of the best non-seeded players (Flash, Bisu, and Sea) into a single group. It wasn't a pretty sight to see players rage or be sullen about other players choosing their destiny.
OGN StarLeague started their group draws later-on in the round of sixteen, and had less seeds to start off with, meaning that if players were fool-hardy enough to pick strong opponents into their groups, they were free to do so. Reigning champions picked first, unlike the MSL system, where the reigning champion picked last, which meant that the reigning champions could pick the strongest possible opponent if they felt like doing it. It was totally bad-ass.
Nal_rA did it famously when he picked iloveoov. NaDa did it when he picked iloveoov. GGPlay did it when he picked Bisu. July did it when he picked Flash. Coincidentally, all these reigning champions ended up paying heavily, being eliminated in the round of sixteen after showing their bravado.
I think the pussy manner in which the MSL chose to set their drafts was one of the many reasons why MSL had so many consecutive champions, whereas OGN StarLeague champions were often cursed to fail immediately afterwards.
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This is some really, really awesome stuff! Well done and thank you! :D
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United States996 Posts
i get up to read stuff like this <3
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As someone who never had a chance to watch these tournaments as they unfolded is there somewhere I can watch the vods?
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On September 14 2017 13:23 Jumperer wrote:
Flash Jaedong Bisu and Sea is still the toughest group in history. Doesn't matter if they were not playing in their peaks at the time. These guys are multiple time champions. Form is tempotary class is permanent.
If you want to just accumulate the career achievements of players in a group, then nothing beats group A of GomTV Season 3.
Bisu, Flash, NaDa, and iloveoov.
That's like 20 major individual trophies between the four of them. Six more than the group that was assembled in ABCMart MSL. In terms of class, there's no group that can beat these four.
By my criteria, that group would be rated as follows:
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): GomTV MSL S2, Daum OGN StarLeague, GomTV MSL S3, EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague, GomTV MSL S4, and Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague
Members of the group
Bisu: 5
Flash: 0
NaDa: -8
iloveoov: -9
Final tally: -12
For me personally, it doesn't matter how legendary these players are if they were not performing at a high level in the individual leagues at the time. It is a fact that both Bisu and Sea were a non-factor in an individual league setting at that moment in time. If the group in question was somehow a collection of players who would compete against one another in a ProLeague setting, I might agree that this was the strongest group of players ever assembled, however, that is not the case.
The last finals Bisu reached was in 2008, and was struggling to get past the initial rounds of individual leagues ever since mid-2009. Sea never reached the round of four in his entire career, and wasn't a regular face in the round of eight either. Both Flash and Jaedong were not living up to their impossibly high standards set in the previous seasons. It is a fact that none of these players were performing fantastically in the individual leagues if you take into consideration the time frame.
However, if you only look at their overall career achievements, or performances in a ProLeague setting, both of which are less than stellar indicators of a player's likelihood of performing fantastically in the individual leagues for that specific period of time, yes, you could argue otherwise. It's just that I think those are piss poor criterias that you set up just for this particular occasion.
Does that mean whenever NaDa qualified for the individual leagues you auto-matically assumed that he would go all the way because he won more open individual leagues than any other player in history? NaDa was the all-time leader of individual league trophies and overall ProLeague win count coming into 2006, 2007, and 2008. What is it you wish to convey exactly by stating that class is permanent? Permanent for players you like? Permanent for players who are still active streamers on AfreecaTV? What is it exactly?
If you were basing their strength based off their ProLeague records, does that mean you thought Bisu was not going to get out of groups for Daum OGN StarLeague when he had inferior ProLeague records compared to NaDa, Hwasin, and DArKeLf?
Why should class be only permanent for Jaedong, Sea, Flash, and Bisu? Why should we expect the ProLeague performances to be an accurate predictor of individual league performance, when Sea is literally the embodiment of a ProLeague-only player who tried his hardest to show that wasn't the case at all? The last time Bisu did anything of note in the individual leagues was in 2009, and proceeded to do absolutely nothing until professional Brood War ended in 2012.
Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu are seen by some as the greatest players of their respective races, who were still tearing things up in the ProLeague at the time. With that being said, their name value was not reflected by their recent peformances in the individual leagues leading up to ABCMart MSL, nor was it reflected in their placements in tournaments that took immediately after ABCMart MSL took place. Like I stressed before in my opening post, I wasn't trying to see which groups had the most number of "Hall of Fame" players, but the actual toughest groups from a competitive standpoint. I'm not interested in which groups made the casual fan squirm the most.
I think it might be better if you were to present an alternative criteria that is an improvement over mine, and be consistent with your logic with every single group that ever existed. I would be willing to try that out. I'm just not that keen on changing my mind simply because of your assertion that lowly human rules shouldn't apply to these deities. If I see a criteria that makes sense from a competitive standpoint, that would be more persuasive to me than what your general feelings are on the matter.
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I’m not going to enter the discussion comparing this group of death with others. But it is the one that came to mind when I clicked on the blog. (A lot of the others predate my following of the world of Starcraft)
Interesting memories of an evening when unexpectedly (to me anyway) Sea had decided to come meet foreign fans rather than prepare for his game I think against Flash. The Teamliquid meet up was a weird situation because the attendance was split between groups of SC2 and Broodwar fans who didn’t necessarily have a lot to talk to each other about. I ended up stuck having dinner on a table with SC2 (I’m sure nice guys) guys who I had never heard of who where claiming to be famous. I desperately wanted to hang out with Sea and Artosis and the other cool kids.
Was it someone’s birthday? Lilsuzzie maybe? I can’t remember.
edit: By the way you guys all have sick memories to be able to chat in such detail about the history of Broodwar. Maybe I'm developing alzheimer's.
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I personally think that Taek-Beng-LeeSsang are collectively somewhat overrated, especially once you factor in the circumstances. There's no need to give special treatments to these players just because they happen to be more fresh in our memories.
Here are the calendar years starting from 1999, when nationwide competitive Brood War was first organized in Korea, followed by the debut years of what I believe to be the greatest talents to arise from each of those caldendar years. Only players who been to multiple finals of a major individual league will be counted.
1999: BoxeR, H.O.T-Forever
2000: NaDa, Nal_rA, YellOw, ChoJJa, GARIMTO
2001: Reach, Kingdom
2002: July, Anytime
2003: iloveoov, sAviOr
2004: Stork
2005: Bisu
2006: Jaedong, JangBi
2007: Flash, FanTaSy
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There's a natural cycle to all this. A player makes his debut. Rises up through the ranks. Takes over whoever was on top of the scene at the time, and makes history. Gets knocked off the perch by another new face. There is an inevitable fall from grace, even for the most magnificent of legends, as long as the influx of talent keeps going on and on.
Starting with the year 2008, that never ending cycle comes to a sudden halt. The quartet of Stork, Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash, the creme de la creme of the new crop of talent that was found from 2004 to 2007, start to dominate the professional scene until its untimely demise. Even FanTaSy and JangBi, players who were thought to be doing the best towards the end of Brood War, were players who made their debuts in 2007, and 2006, respectively.
In fact, it gets even worse after 2008, when there isn't a single player who even manages to make the semi-finals of a major individual league who made their debut after the calendar year of 2008 ended. hydra, a player made his debut in 2008, is the only player in history to win a major championship out of players who made their debuts after the calendar year of 2007 ended.
These guys were indeed superlative talents, and it is amazing that Flash is still the best player in the scene ten years after he made his competitive debut. However, I think part of the reason for their long lasting legacies is due to the decline in the influx of top level talent, as young Korean males devoted their time to more popular games such as Sudden Attack (Korea's answer to Counter-Strike), and CHAOS (Korea's answer to DoTA), the timing of which lies sometime around 2006~2007, when Brood War started to give way to other more popular video games.
The rise of other e-Sports scenes, meant that gaming geniuses of Korea, such as Coach (also known by his League of Legends alias, PoohManDu), had a much wider variety of games to showcase their talents. This is in stark contrast to the earlier years of competitive Brood War, when Brood War as a game was a national pastime, not just the most played video game, and top professional Brood War players such as BoxeR gained nationwide recognition that bordered on celebrity-levels of fame.
So when Jaedong, Sea, Flash, and Bisu faced-off against one another, at a point in time when none were performing particularly well in the individual leagues, it seems easy to say that it doesn't matter, because these players will always be special. I think the fact that some of these players are still top of the ladder, more than five years after the professional scene got aborted, is not just a testament to the excellence of these godlike players, but more likely to be indicative of the somewhat sobering reality of the situation.
Every era has a certain set of circumstances. Nobody can account for everything. However, I'm not going to give bonus points to the era that's the most fresh on people's minds, just to prop these guys up on a pedestal. They are legendary players even without that preferential treatment, and having lasting legacies as some of the most loved players the scene has ever seen. They are also the players who are carrying the torch of this niche-game, as well as being at the frontier of human mastery for this beautiful game. However it's wrong in my eyes to twist the facts and reality of their competitive results, when all those years competition was the main driving force for the accumulation of all these memorable storylines and unmatched mastery for the game by these demi-gods.
It's sacrilegious to say competition doesn't matter, or that results can be ignored if we respect or like a player enough. Competition is what gave birth to this entire scene. Even if it isn't the perfect indicator of talent, dedication, or even aptitude for the game, it's what I'd like to think was the main driving force behind all our heroes (unless you're sAviOr and just wanted more money and free pussy). It's what drew me to the scene in the first place. That core value of wanting to defeat all competition, no matter how fierce it was, and the drive to perfect an artform, no matter how impossible it was to master. By disregarding one of those core values away, this entire scene may as well be a peformance art of who can impress people the most with the game of Brood War. I really don't think competitive Brood War can be limited to those confines, which is why I am so aggressive with my posts when it comes to these matters.
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Saw thread title, immediately thought of Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Sea group.
The reactions of the players were hilarious. Sea was sweating bullets, thinking, "I have to play Bisu in the loser's bracket"? Bisu was thinking, "I have to play Flash twice? Isn't Flash supposed to 2-0 his group so that someone else can snag a 2-1?" Flash was thinking, "This is hard," and Jaedong was thinking 
Thanks for sharing other groups of death, Letmelose. The Yellow/Nal_rA/Nada/Chojja one is insane.
On September 15 2017 22:25 Djabanete wrote:Saw thread title, immediately thought of Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Sea group. The reactions of the players were hilarious. Sea was sweating bullets, thinking, "I have to play Bisu in the loser's bracket"? Bisu was thinking, "I have to play Flash twice? Isn't Flash supposed to 2-0 his group so that someone else can snag a 2-1?" Flash was thinking, "This is hard," and Jaedong was thinking Thanks for sharing other groups of death, Letmelose. The Yellow/Nal_rA/Nada/Chojja one is insane.
Edit: Reading thread more. Although I like your ranking system, calling Bisu a "legacy player" is a bit strong. You don't really think that a person would rather face Bisu than great in the Ro16, do you? (Do we think Flash was happy that he dodged, say, great by playing against Bisu?) The systematic approach is interesting and you avoided the flaw of overvaluing name status, but possibly at the cost of (to a lesser extent) undervaluing it ;-)
That said, I do like the system you picked and I do like the criterion of "how strong is the weakest player", and by that criterion, the ABCMart group wasn't very deathly.
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On September 15 2017 22:25 Djabanete wrote:Saw thread title, immediately thought of Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Sea group. The reactions of the players were hilarious. Sea was sweating bullets, thinking, "I have to play Bisu in the loser's bracket"? Bisu was thinking, "I have to play Flash twice? Isn't Flash supposed to 2-0 his group so that someone else can snag a 2-1?" Flash was thinking, "This is hard," and Jaedong was thinking Thanks for sharing other groups of death, Letmelose. The Yellow/Nal_rA/Nada/Chojja one is insane. Show nested quote +On September 15 2017 22:25 Djabanete wrote:Saw thread title, immediately thought of Jaedong/Flash/Bisu/Sea group. The reactions of the players were hilarious. Sea was sweating bullets, thinking, "I have to play Bisu in the loser's bracket"? Bisu was thinking, "I have to play Flash twice? Isn't Flash supposed to 2-0 his group so that someone else can snag a 2-1?" Flash was thinking, "This is hard," and Jaedong was thinking Thanks for sharing other groups of death, Letmelose. The Yellow/Nal_rA/Nada/Chojja one is insane. Edit: Reading thread more. Although I like your ranking system, calling Bisu a "legacy player" is a bit strong. You don't really think that a person would rather face Bisu than great in the Ro16, do you? (Do we think Flash was happy that he dodged, say, great by playing against Bisu?) The systematic approach is interesting and you avoided the flaw of overvaluing name status, but possibly at the cost of (to a lesser extent) undervaluing it ;-) That said, I do like the system you picked and I do like the criterion of "how strong is the weakest player", and by that criterion, the ABCMart group wasn't very deathly.
Flash had the most trouble versus protoss players in 2011, so I would imagine he would have preferred Great over any half-decent protoss back then. Further more, I'm not selecting the toughest possible group for Flash competing in 2011. I'm picking the most competitive groups of all time. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter who was being picked in that particular season of the MSL, because literally nobody had a stellar individual league performances in 2011.
FanTaSy was probably the best overall performing player in 2011 (the only player to reach multiple finals), and even his results are not all that awe-inspiring, considering he is the leading figure out of every single player out there:
Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague: 1st place (3 points)
PDPop MSL: Round of 32 (-2 points)
ABCMart MSL: Round of 32 (-2 points)
Jin Air OGN StarLeague: 2nd place (2 points)
You could have any composition of players you want, and it really wouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Flash in 2010, and in 2011 may have not been all that different in terms of the intimidation factor, or even skill, but the fact of the matter is that Flash created all that aura around him due to his stupendous achievements in 2010, not his more down to earth results he had in 2011. In fact, I would argue that the tremendous amount of respect he drew from the masses and the players surrounding him was created in spite of his more mortal results in 2011.
It's a simple fact. Having Flash in your group in 2010, and in 2011 was entirely different. Flash in 2010 reached all six of the finals, something that was never done before. Meanwhile, Flash in 2011 could be knocked out of the round of 32 after losing to totally mediocre players like sSak and Classic in succession, or be knocked out of the round of sixteen by someone like Hyuk. Hardly the same level of performance, even if the player in question wasn't all that fundamentally different.
It is a fact that Flash was not that great in the individual leagues in 2011. It is a fact that Bisu was terrible in the individual leagues in 2011. It is also a fact that there's a lot of legendary players who went through dry patches in their careers, some of whom made a glorious come back, regaining some of their former glory. This piece tries to differentiate a player on great form in the individual leagues, and those who were going through a dry patch. Bisu happened to be on a three year dry patch that lasted until his professional career came to a close. You can call that whatever the hell you want, but I personally don't have any problems stating that Bisu was a non-factor in the individual leagues during the latter stages of his professional career.
I'm not posting the most competitive groups in terms of perceived skill or talent. I'm trying to come up with a definitive list of the most competitive groups in history based on pertinent competitive results. As far as I'm concerned, while I'm working on this list, I don't care if By.Rain happened to be the best player on his team during practice, if FanTaSy was out-performing him heavily as a competitive player.
Professional Brood War is basically a function of who can win more than others under a competitive setting, not who can play better than others. The question of who the best players were, in a more holistic sense of the word, rather than the one based on competitive results, is one that I will make assumptions on as I become more knowledgeable. Before that happens, just let me make sense of the competitive results, and try to judge players from a competitive stand point.
I would argue that ABCMart MSL wasn't impossibly strong as a general rule of thumb, all the way from top-to-bottom. What was so overwhelmingly amazing about Flash in 2011 that would make this group so much more competitive than any other history? If we were discussing one of Flash's groups that happened in 2010, for example, I would comment that the group in question, was in possession of the single greatest force of nature the scene has ever seen. Flash that won ABCMart MSL? I've seen scarier. There were other one time champions that year too, and Flash was busy getting knocked out before he even hit the semi-finals for the rest of the year.
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Great read as usual, please keep them coming!
5/5
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I can't remember, was it the MyCube OSL which had the smallest viewership history in OSLs because of the World Cup?
But yeah, that analysis is unreal!
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For example, using the set of criterion, I can judge a whole bunch of other bracket stages. Take the finals between iloveoov and BoxeR, a historic finals between a master and his most valued apprentice, that went down to the wire. A five-time champion overcoming a three-time champion. A pretty epic finals, but when judged by the criterion I set up, this is how the final tally looks:
Finals of EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague
Individual leagues that will be checked (5): Gillette OGN StarLeague, SPRIS MSL, EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague, YATGK MSL, and IOPS OGN StarLeague
Finalists
iloveoov: 6
BoxeR: -5
Final tally: 1
Contrast that with the finals of EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague:
Finals of EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague
Individual leagues that will be checked (5): YATGK MSL, IOPS OGN StarLeague, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague, UZOO MSL, and So1 OGN StarLeague
Finalists
July: 4
GoodFriend: 1
Final tally: 5
Although from an overall historical context, EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague may be more fondly remembered, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague was a stronger finals from a competitive stand-point, because BoxeR's best days were behind him, and BoxeR reaching that finals was more of a stand-out performance, rather than what was expected of him during those times, as evidenced by his poor results elsewhere in a similar frame of time.
Defeating GoodFriend may not carry as much prestige, but he was at his absolute peak form as a gamer in the individual leagues, having qualified for every single championship going on at the time, and reaching the bracket stages in three of them. This does not say anything about BoxeR or GoodFriend as players, but I take no hesitation in saying that GoodFriend in 2005 was performing better in the individual leagues than BoxeR in 2004.
That's essentially what I'm trying to say, I'm taking into account the individual league form of every single player out there. Defeating Flash in 2010 should be more impressive than defeating Flash in 2011. Triumphing over BoxeR in the finals 2001 is an entirely different animal from taking him out in the finals that took place in 2005. In the same vein, having Bisu in your group in 2007 should be different from having him in your group in 2011. Having Jaedong in your group in 2009 should be considered more challenging from a competitive stand-point than having Jaedong in your group in 2011.
I'm not trying to play a game of who's who of famous professional Brood War players here. I'm trying focus entirely on competitive form in the individual leagues. Like I said before, I'm open to suggestions that might improve my overall criterion, but it has to make sense from a logical perspective. I hope I made this point clear enough, because I feel like a broken recorder here.
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Five most stacked finals in history
1. Finals of Hana Daetoo MSL
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague, NATE MSL, Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1, Hana Daetoo MSL, BigFile MSL, and Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2
Finalists
Flash:16
Jaedong: 7
Final tally: 23
2. Finals of NATE MSL
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): Bacchus 2009 OGN StarLeague, Avalon MSL, EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague, NATE MSL, Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1, Hana Daetoo MSL
Finalists
Flash: 8
Jaedong: 7
Final tally: 15
3. Finals of Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): Korean Air OGN StarLeague S1, Hana Daetoo MSL, BigFile MSL, Korean Air OGN StarLeague S2, Bacchus 2010 OGN StarLeague, and PDPop MSL
Finalists
Flash: 8
Jaedong: 4
Final tally: 12
4. Finals of Coca-Cola OGN StarLeague
Individual leagues that will be checked (3): HanbitSoft OGN StarLeague, Coca-Cola OGN StarLeague, SKY 2001 OGN StarLeague
BoxeR: 8
YellOw: 3
Final tally: 11
4. Finals of 4th KPGA Tournament
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): 3rd KPGA Tournament, SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague, 4th KPGA Tournament, Panasonic OGN StarLeague, Olympus OGN StarLeague, and Stout MSL
Finalists
NaDa: 8
ChoJJa: 3
Final tally: 11
Thoughts:
These are the finals that had both members of the finals on a hot streak. Nobody can come close to the competitive intensity of the three consecutive finals created members of the LeeSsang, since Flash in 2010 was the most dominant player in history in terms of sheer results, and Jaedong in 2010 was the most dominant second best player in history in terms of sheer results. The memorable Coca-Cola OGN StarLeague finals that gave birth to Im-Jin-Rok, perhaps the most famous rival match-up in the history of the game, also lives up to the name from a competitive stand-point, with both players on fine form. The finals between NaDa and ChoJJa was also an epic battle between the two young prodigies, who were both arguably at the peak of their careers. Probably one of the most under appreciated rivalries in the game, probably due to the one sided nature of it.
I'll update the list if there are any notable finals I missed out on, and in the mean time, I'll list some of the honourable mentions in the spoilers below:
+ Show Spoiler +Finals of 3rd KPGA Tournament
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): NATE OGN StarLeague, 2nd KPGA Tournament, 3rd KPGA Tournament, SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague, 4th KPGA Tournament, and Panasonic OGN StarLeague
Finalists
NaDa: 8
Reach: 0
Final tally: 8
Finals of CEN Game MSL
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): MyCube OGN StarLeague, TG Sambo MSL, NHN HanGame OGN StarLeague, CEN Game MSL, Gillette OGN StarLeague, and SPRIS MSL
iloveoov: 6
NaDa: 1
Final tally: 7
Finals of GomTV MSL S2
Individual leagues that will be checked (6): Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3, GomTV MSL S1, GomTV MSL S2, Daum OGN StarLeague, GomTV MSL S3, and EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague
Finalists
Bisu: 7
Stork: 0
Final tally: 7
Finals of IOPS OGN StarLeague
Individual leagues that will be checked (5): EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague, YATGK MSL, IOPS OGN StarLeague, EVER 2005 OGN StarLeague, and UZOO MSL
Finalists
July: 4
NaDa: 3
Final tally: 7
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Japan11285 Posts
On September 16 2017 09:58 intotheheart wrote:
I can't remember, was it the MyCube OSL which had the smallest viewership history in OSLs because of the World Cup?
But yeah, that analysis is unreal!
It was Nate OSL, the one SynC won against H.O.T-Forever. MyCube OSL was the first OSL to be held in a stadium.
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How about the best Starleague run? (opponents you beat to win it all)
Flash's Bacchus 2008 vs JD/Bisu/Stork and ForGG vs Flash/JD come to mind
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On September 16 2017 23:21 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
How about the best Starleague run? (opponents you beat to win it all)
Flash's Bacchus 2008 vs JD/Bisu/Stork and ForGG vs Flash/JD come to mind
Ooh I'd love to see this.
There's almost no way fOrGG's Arena MSL run wouldn't make it though... it was pretty insane how hard he peaked during that tournament, only to never perform anywhere near as well ever again. In BW anyway.
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On September 16 2017 23:21 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote:
How about the best Starleague run? (opponents you beat to win it all)
Flash's Bacchus 2008 vs JD/Bisu/Stork and ForGG vs Flash/JD come to mind
I wouldn't know how to arrange that, due to the following issues:
1) Not all champions start from the same spot. Some champions start from the rock bottom, the off-line qualifiers. Some are seeded into the lower stages like the Survivor Tournament. Some start from the round of 32, while others start from the round of 16.
2) Not all tournaments have the same format. OGN StarLeague have a round-robin stage in the round of 16, some of the older versions of the MSL implemented a double elimination format, which ensured a greater number of opponents if you went through the lower bracket stages, instead of going straight into the finals. There's so much variance that even if I were to start from the round of 16, some champions would only play four opponents on their way to the title, whereas some played as many ten.
3) How do I weigh each encounter? If a champion beat a great player like Flash in a single game in the round of sixteen, should I reward it equally as somebody beating him in a best-of-three? What about overcoming him in a best-of-five? If I were to weigh each encounter differently, should I be okay with the fact that tournaments that saved best-of-five series for important stages like the finals will be totally misrepresented? For example, Nal_rA ended up winning his title without playing a single fully functional best-of-five when he won Stout MSL. Does his lack of best-of-five triumphs automatically place him at the bottom of the totem pole?
4) How should I deal with scores? Do I give equal points for beating an opponent by a score of 3-0, and barely beating him by a score of 3-2? Is it more impressive to go totally undefeated versus less than stellar players? Or is it more impressive to barely trudge onward versus a tougher field of opponents? Is there an exact formula that solves this issue?
5) Do I take into racial imbalance? Should I reward players if there are less players of their race of choice competing in the individual league of interest? What about if everybody apart from the player in question gets knocked out early on, and he becomes the sole representative of his race? Should I take a look at the map pool and try to factor in the scores for that too?
I don't want to list a bunch of tournament runs that left an impression on me, and try to back it up with statistics to justify my choices. I want to come up with a half-decent criteria to start-off with, and I don't think I'm capable of creating one that'll do justice to all the note-worthy individual league runs in history.
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While I can't come up with a definitive list, I can try to assess some of the more impressive tournament runs in history.
For example Flash run on his way to his first ever triumph in the Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague was indeed impressive.
However, Flash was:
1) One game away from being eliminated in the group stages. He had a negative record overall, having lost against Stork and TheRock. TheRock fumbled his chances to progress in place of Flash by losing to Rumble in his final game, and Flash eventually got through after a tie-breaker series.
2) One game away from being eliminated in the quarter-finals. His third game victory against Jaedong was one of the most surprising comebacks in that tournament.
Considering there's are other tournament runs where the eventual champions were literally never in danger of being eliminated from the tournament, Flash having two instances of being this close to being knocked out doesn't seem that impressive to me. His overall win rate during this tournament is nothing to boast about either, when looking at it from an all-time perspective.
If I were to look into the more impressive characteristics about this particular tournament run:
1) The level of Flash's opponents in the bracket-stages. The three players that he defeated were, in my opinion, the three strongest possible opponents available in that particular time frame. However, I'm not sure if people were amazed by the fact that Flash beat three of the strongest possible opponents of that specific time frame, or the fact that it was those famous names.
After all, Bisu in early-2008 actually one of the worst time frames to select for Bisu, with his individual league performances starting to falter heavily, not to mention his abysmal ProLeague numbers. Stork was starting to do terribly in the MSL, which is a stark contrast to his 2007 performance when he was regular guest in both individual leagues. Only Jaedong could be truly recognized as being in great form, and even he found better individual form further down the road. Early 2008 in general wasn't a great time for finding all-time calibre level of opponents, in my personal opinion.
If I'm to tally Flash's opponents by the criterion I laid out in my first post, the scores would be as follows:
Jaedong: 4
Bisu: -1
Stork: -2
Final tally: 1
Impressive, but this is the individual league forms of EffOrt's opponents:
Flash: 16
Kal: -4
ZerO: -5
Final tally: 7
Or in a similar vein, when July when he beat iloveoov at his absolute peak:
iloveoov: 8
Reach: -3
XellOs: -1
Final tally: 4
Even Flash's own run in EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague bracket stage arguably had a more impressive line-up once you factor in the recent individual league form of these players:
Jaedong: 7
Calm: 0
Movie: -5
Final tally: 2
One thing that is noteworthy about all these runs with a high final tally, is that the eventual champion defeated an all-time great at the absolute peak of his game. Flash may have defeated three all-time greats in succession, but it came at a time-frame when none had hit their prime. It's just like that "Group of Death" that had all-time greats in Bisu, Flash, NaDa, and iloveoov. I remember everybody on PGR21 (a respectable Korean site) creaming themselves after this group had been created, but let's face it, nobody except Bisu was in fine form at the time. The same thing, to a much lesser degree, can be said for Flash's bracket-stage run during Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague.
2) Flash was the only terran player remaining in the round of eight, which makes his run even more legendary. However, we've seen runs like that before. Out of the ones already mentioned, July was the only remaining zerg player in the round of eight in his Gillette OGN StarLeague run. Flash had a much cleaner overall performance in EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague, with almost zero slip-ups throughout the entire tournament, as well as being the only terran player remaining in the round of eight.
Conclusion: In my personal opinion, Flash's path to victory while competing in Bacchus 2008 OGN StarLeague, while remarkable, does not qualify as the clear number one most impressive tournament of all-time.
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ForGG's Arena MSL run:
1) Impressive overall win rate of 13-3 (81.25%)
Not as good as near-perfect tournament runs such as BoxeR's HanbitSoft OGN StarLeague run, or Jaedong's NATE MSL run, but pretty damn good, with only one instance of coming close to elimination, when he won 3-2 versus Kal in the quarter-finals. Pretty respectable.
2) Level of opponents (the final three opponents he faced on his way to victory)
Flash: 2
Jaedong: 0
Kal: -3
Final tally: -1
ForGG's claim to fame would be that he defeated both members of LeeSsang on his way to victory. However, defeating these two players was something a lot of players were capable of doing. Even if we disregard best-of-one defeats as flukes, Flash was defeated by Luxury, GGPlay, and even lost to Much in WCG Korea 2008 which happened within this time frame. Jaedong was knocked out by Tyson, of all people, in the off-line qualifiers for Incruit OGN StarLeague, as well as being defeated by free in the round of 16 of Clubday MSL. These two players were not yet the gods they would eventually evolve into. Their evolution was not yet complete.
3) Map imbalance was off-the-charts here. Terran was the most numerous race by some distance, having ten players in the round of 16, four players in the round of eight, and two players in the round of four. A win is a win, but I don't think this particular run was all that impressive once you factor in how this tournament was basically rigged for terran players. The fact that the most played match-up in this particular tournament was terran-versus-terran should be telling you something. Even Clubday MSL, one of the most blatant rigged individual leagues for the protoss race, didn't have protoss-versus-protoss as its most played match-up. Hell, even the never-ending zerg-versus-zerg fest that was PDPop MSL didn't have zerg-versus-zerg as its most played match-up. This tournament was fucked-up in terms of racial imbalance.
Conclusion: There's no way I'm going to give ForGG the lofty title of having the most impressive tournament run when he needed broken maps like Tiamat and Othello to defeat the likes of Jaedong, none of whom were even that unstoppable in the first place.
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I agree that the facts make it seem less outstanding than it felt, which is why I'm actually glad that you brought them up.
I won't speak for anyone else, but in my opinion I had always thought of fOrGG as a solid player and nothing more, certainly not a championship contender. And though it's true that FlaSh and Jaedong at that particular moment in time weren't at their peak (or rather they were in valleys in between their peaks), what was very impressive to me was that a guy who wasn't supposed to be a championship contender ended up beating them in Bo5 series.
FlaSh already had high-stakes experience from his first career highlight run in the 2007 Daum OSL, and had also just won the 2008 Bacchus OSL mentioned in this thread. Jaedong had won both the 2007 EVER OSL and the 2008 GOMTV MSL. Neither of them lacked the experience of playing in high-pressure semis and finals. And yet this guy who was not supposed to be good enough to beat them ended up taking both the semis and the finals.
Add to that also beating Sea and KaL just before, not to mention that super memorable game in the group stages on Tiamat where fOrGG played Deep Six against KaL and it was just all-out aggression across the map for like 10-15 minutes straight until he finally broke the Protoss' back... I think it's these storylines that make it so memorable for a lot of people, myself included.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
thanks for these posts, letmelose. always love reading them
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
yeah your posts are great, thanks a lot for the effort!
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One of the reasons why I don't think that highly of terran players who did well in Arena MSL is due to the abnormally high percentage of terran-versus-terran match-ups making up a large portion of the schedule. Win rates for the other match-ups such as terran-versus-zerg can be partly explained by the excellence of a select few players skewing the overall smaller game sample. However, almost nothing can explain the fact that terran-versus-terran was the most played match-up out of the six possible match-ups, apart from the fact that this particular individual league was dominated by the terran race. No single outliers, or extra-ordinary individual excellence can lead to this result. The entire race as a whole needs to be abnormally well for this result to come through.
So this is the individual leagues with abnormally high percentage of mirror match-ups. Highlighted individual leagues had expected results as in the dominant race coming out on top:
1. CEN Game MSL: 40% of the games were terran-versus-terran
2. Freechal OGN StarLeague: 37.76% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
3. TG Sambo MSL: 34.09% of the games were terran-versus-terran
4. 2nd KPGA Tournament: 33.33% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
5. PDPop MSL: 30.59% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
6. Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3: 28.87% of the games were terran-versus-terran
7. Arena MSL: 28.74% of the games were terran-versus-terran
8. Jin Air OGN StarLeague: 28.57% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
9. Tving OGN StarLeague: 27.87% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
10. Clubday MSL: 26.74% of the games were protoss-versus-protoss
+ Show Spoiler +
11. GomTV MSL S4: 22.73% of the games were terran-versus-terran
12. GomTV MSL S3: 26.67% of the games were terran-versus-terran
13. Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: 26.42% of the games were terran-versus-terran
14. EVER 2004 OGN StarLeague: 25% of the games were terran-versus-terran
15. CYON MSL: 23.53% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
16. Olympus OGN StarLeague: 23.53% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
17. Shinan OGN StarLeague: 22.55% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
18. Daum OGN StarLeague: 21.88% of the games were terran-versus-terran
19. YATGK: 21.43% of the games were terran-versus-terran
20. Pringles MSL S2: 21.15% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
21. 1st KPGA Tournament: 21.43% of the games were terran-versus-terran
22. EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 20.97% of the games were terran-versus-terran
23. Panasonic OGN StarLeague: 20.69% of the games were zerg-versus-zerg
24. MyCube OGN StarLeague: 20.63% of the games were protoss-versus-protoss
Arena MSL was one of the worst ever individual leagues of a single race having an unfair advantage over the other races. There was twenty-five terran-versus-terran games, compared to the measly one zerg-versus-zerg game in the entire tournament. Even Shinhan OGN StarLeague S3, one of the more notoriously balanced leagues for the zerg race, had eight zerg-versus-zerg games. A zerg player simply wasn't meant to win this tournament.
There's another way to look at it also.
This is the total number of victories earned by the disadvantaged race that somehow made it to the finals (so I won't count the leagues where every single member got destroyed early on, such as the protoss race in IOPS OGN StarLeague) divided by the total number of games, excluding the records of the best performing member of the race who had to fight against all odds. Highlighted performances are miraculous cases of a player overcoming all-odds to become the champion despite the universe telling him not to.
1. SKY 2002 OGN StarLeague: 0% of the games ended in non-Reach protoss victory
1. Jin Air OGN StarLeague: 0% of the games ended in non-JangBi protoss victory
3. Gillette OGN StarLeague: 5% of the games ended in non-July zerg victory
4. Arena MSL: 6.94% of the games ended in non-Jaedong zerg victory
5. Shinhan 2005 OGN StarLeague: 7.14% of the games ended in non-July zerg victory
6. 2nd KPGA Tournament: 11.11% of the games ended in non-NaDa terran victory
7. Daum OGN StarLeague: 11.43% of the games ended in non-GGPlay zerg victory
8. Bacchus OGN StarLeague: 13.16% of the games ended in non-Flash terran victory
9. Tving OGN StarLeague: 13.33% of the games ended in non-JangBi protoss victory
10. EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague: 14.29% of the games ended in non-Stork protoss victory
+ Show Spoiler +11. HanbitSoft OGN StarLeague: 14.71% of the games ended in non-BoxeR terran victory
12. Stout MSL: 15.38% of the games ended in non-Nal_rA protoss victory
13. 1st KPGA Tournament: 15.63% of the games ended in non-YellOw zerg victory
14. Shinhan OGN StarLeague S2: 15.85% of the games ended in non-Anytime protoss victory
15. Pringles MSL S1: 16.67% of the games ended in non-sAviOr zerg victory
16. GomTV MSL S4: 16.67% of the games ended in non-Jaedong zerg victory
17. EVER 2007 OGN StarLeague 18.37% of the games ended in non-Jaedong zerg victory
18. EVER 2009 OGN StarLeague: 19.35% of the games ended in non-Flash terran victory
So let's combine the two lists, where the hero of an overwhelmingly unfavoured race had to come up against a top level member of an overwhelmingly favoured race in the finals of an individual league. There's only four occasions of it happening simultaneously (where the individual league in question ranks in the top ten for both lists):
1. 2nd KPGA Tournament
2. Arena MSL
3. Jin Air OGN StarLeague
4. Tving OGN StarLeague
I tend not to be impressed by poorly balanced leagues, if the outcome turned out as expected. Of course, this is only looking into the racial equilibrium of various leagues, and I'm not suggesting that ForGG's play during Arena MSL was not gorgeous in almost every single way. His timing attacks were otherworldly, and are still etched onto my memory. However, the bad balancing of the maps and the shift in power towards the terran race cheapens his triumph somewhat in my eyes.
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totally forgot about hydra !! he was looking so good !!
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On September 18 2017 05:28 CUTtheCBC wrote:
totally forgot about hydra !! he was looking so good !!
The only player in professional Brood War history to be drafted in 2008 or afterwards to have won a major individual league. He was said to be head-and-shoulders everybody else on his team during practice, including EffOrt, who admittedly had taken a long hiatus from competitive play to pursue his academics and never was quite the same afterwards, towards the very end of professional Brood War. He was also one of the very few select players in history (twelve if I remember right) to earn over 40 ProLeague victories for his team in a single season. He was also doing quite well in 2011, reaching the semi-finals or above multiple times, and was probably the best performing zerg in the last ever Brood War-only calendar year, as evidenced by his KeSPA ranking placements.
I think people tend to remember Soulkey more because of his extremely potent zerg-versus-terran prowess, but hydra was a much more rounded player in my opinion, even if his zerg-versus-terran was somewhat lacking for a player of his calibre.
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EPT
