No, it's not, TY won IEM Katowice with tank push for example, he did a lot of amazing matchs without winning a tournament for example.

Just watch his TvZ against Rogue, he showed way more skills than he did when he won IEM

The_Red_Viper

19533 Posts

July 08 2017 14:44 GMT

#43

You don't have to win tournaments, you could totally get goat in my system by simply placing well a lot.
But if your "skill" cannot produce results then there is no point. Players play the game to win matches, not to have forum posters argue abotu their subjective view on "skill".

opisska

Poland8852 Posts

July 09 2017 08:33 GMT

#44

I was thinking about this today. I am pretty sure you are gonna do a great job making a good rational rating. However I asked myself: if I was asked to pick one great player quickly, who would it be and the answer is really easy. I know I didn't always like him much, never were a fan of his styles, yet he seems to be undoubtedly the one I always think about as the poster man for the game. You all know who that is, face it. If that doesn't make him the goat, then I don't know ...

The_Red_Viper

19533 Posts

July 09 2017 12:34 GMT

#45

I am actually not 100% sure who you mean haha. I would guess it's Life

Well everybody has a vague subjective idea without looking at all the data, personally i think players like Life, Mvp, soO, Zest, Innovation could all be fairly close in a possible ranking.
A lot will depend on the proleague points in the end, what do you guys think about it? How important should it really be in comparison?

opisska

Poland8852 Posts

July 09 2017 12:58 GMT

#46

I meant Innovation. The fact that you don't get it increases my faith in tge fairness of your ranking

I don't think that there is an objective way to assign points to proleague. Make it a free parameter and for each value with a reasonable step sum for all top 20 players the number of ranks shifted by including the proleague, then pick a value that gives you something desirable, say 40.

The_Red_Viper

19533 Posts

July 09 2017 13:08 GMT

#47

Yeah there is no "objective" way to pretty much assign any of the point values, the best i can hope for is a "reasonable" system.
In general i don't wanna "fine tune" values based on the end result though, that would basically mean my own bias isn't happy with the result and wants to change it. That seems flawed.
But yeah proleague will be interesting, as i said somewhere else already, nerfign the old kespa ranking relative value seems to be a good idea. But in general proleague will count for quite a bit, i think it was important in the sc2 scene, in fact so important that proleague players would regularly not be able to go to other events.

opisska

Poland8852 Posts

July 09 2017 13:11 GMT

#48

If you fine tune in a similar way as I suggested, you can predetermine the conditions beforehand and no bias can be applied

The_Red_Viper

19533 Posts

July 09 2017 13:17 GMT

#49

Fair enough, just making a general point because i have seen the notion that certain positions "have to be" certain players otherwise the ranking would be bad, etc. That seems flawed to me.

ejozl

Denmark3463 Posts

July 15 2017 11:53 GMT

#50

When you say Kespa Rankings, do you mean the player with the most wins is highest?

I think it's tough, since players are fielded at a different rate. As an example herO was an extremely important player for CJ.Entus and so compared to a player on a more stacked team, I can easily see rankings favour him. Then again being on a team that gets far into the tournament also give you more chances to perform.
I also feel like all-killing should get you a small bonus, but then again you can argue that if RyunG hadn't all-killed this VSL, mb INnoVation would've.
Would love to hear what you find out regarding this.

The_Red_Viper

19533 Posts

July 15 2017 13:17 GMT

#51

No i am talking about this ranking here: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/524480-using-the-kespa-ranking-formula-to-judge-players

Basically a system kespa used to rank players in the bw era. They included proleague and it was basically 1:1 in importance with individual leagues.

ToToRo87

Greece8 Posts

September 11 2017 19:28 GMT

#52

That's a great idea tbh, it will be nice to quantify the whole GOAT system a tad and + Show Spoiler +

prove stuchiu right

Anyways, I will propose an alternative system that just came to me while brainstorming. It's not perfect, it's just an idea that I have but if it sounds appealing we can think it through, discuss it and go for a few test runs in order to see if it reflects perfect sense.

The core of the idea is a standard statistical calibration: every player starts with a base score, I'd go for 1. Then every tournament in chronological order will acquire a tier list based on the mean + outlier of the participants (values to be regulated, let's call that variable T) and every win will award/discard an amount of points that reflect the point system between the two players (in a way standard ELO), regulated by a factor for a bo1,3,5,7 series and the aforementioned variable T.

Of course some tiers will have to be assigned, especially in the beginning (Fruitdealer anyone?) but in the long run where the points of the players reflect an greater sample of games (and thus, more accurate) I believe it will be representative.

It might not make any sense, as I'm about to go to bed now, but I hope I came through with my blueprint. Lemme know if it strikes your fancy!

P.S. I know I have a low post count, I'm your typical lurker (pun intended). Please don't take this into consideration! :D

virpi

Germany3599 Posts

September 11 2017 20:48 GMT

#53

It's kinda hard to name a GOAT, because of the 2 expansions. For each iteration of the game it gets easy:
WoL: Mvp, no doubt here.
HotS: Life, also no real doubt. (sOs and Innovation are contenders, though)

As for LotV, it gets harder. Nobody has really dominated the korean scene. Stats, Inno, Ty have put up some nice results. Overall, I think it's a close call between Mvp and Life. Both have won lots of big tournaments and both have been dominant in their prime.

A good possibility to calculate the GOAT would be raw ELO. (peak / consistency)

opisska

Poland8852 Posts

September 11 2017 20:53 GMT

#54

Elo is not an abbreviation, but a name of an acutal person an thus should never be written "ELO".

ToToRo87

Greece8 Posts

September 12 2017 06:12 GMT

#55

On September 12 2017 05:53 opisska wrote:
Elo is not an abbreviation, but a name of an acutal person an thus should never be written "ELO".

It's done to differentiate the person from the ranking system, no salt needed.

Poopi

France12906 Posts

September 12 2017 10:07 GMT

#56

Stephano is the GOAT imo.
No other player was able to change the paradigm of the game that much in spite of being in a bad environment with much worse players.
Basically he shadow played sc2 to top KR level.

Mun_Su

France2063 Posts

October 30 2017 12:03 GMT

#57

Poopi I can totaly agree with this :D

The_Red_Viper: does winrate count ? since last decembre INnoVation is at 79% overall winrate in offline (in matches, not game played), 89% TvZ, 74% TvP and 71% TvT (50% from the start of 2017 to may, and something like 92% since june)

Who ever came close to this in a year ?