EPT
So the "elephants" didn't dominate SC2 after all
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Akara12345
164 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16065 Posts
If sc2 players would go back to BW they would obviously instantly dominate. Just look at Flash, he couldn't make it past the ro16 in the GSL but in BW he's still the best player. That clearly indicates that in the current sc2 scene there are at least 15-20 players who could switch to BW and instantly dominate the scene. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
The list you used as reference is done by a single guy and even though i like stuchiu's content in general it's still only the view of one writer which obviously makes it biased to some extent. Personally i disagree quite heavily with his priorities for the ranking. | ||
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rotta
5623 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16065 Posts
On April 03 2017 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: While it was wrong about the big BW stars like Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, etc dominating in the end the kespa players clearly were the superior players as a whole. Just look at the GSL results after the kespa switch. The list you used as reference is done by a single guy and even though i like stuchiu's content in general it's still only the view of one writer which obviously makes it biased to some extent. Personally i disagree quite heavily with his priorities for the ranking. Also the list is already very outdated since it was released in early 2015. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
MVP too. When MVP switched, my thoughts were that "well, here is the first player from BW who is switching who is actually good." And he's, as far as I can tell, the only one who might deserve the title of "bonjwa" in SC2 history. So that also corroborates the "best BW players are going to rise to the top" story, albeit perhaps in a much more nuanced and roundabout way than intrigue predicted. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16065 Posts
On April 03 2017 02:11 LegalLord wrote: I'm going to take a less conventional view on this: the TBLS four, who dominated Brood War in their own time, were already "over the hill" so to speak. Whether it was Brood War or SC2, it was clear that their greatest years were behind them, that they would still win for quite a while longer but that their monster streaks of the past would no longer be the future. The article that said "but these guys are EXCEPTIONS" was not really true, but look at it this way. I'm not much of an SC2 fan so I'll take the list above - Zest, Inno, Rain, soO, sOs - and I want to note that basically all of them (except maybe sOs because I have no idea who that is) were "the next generation" of superstars that were poised to become BW champions. And they became superstars in a new game instead, wow. MVP too. When MVP switched, my thoughts were that "well, here is the first player from BW who is switching who is actually good." And he's, as far as I can tell, the only one who might deserve the title of "bonjwa" in SC2 history. So that also corroborates the "best BW players are going to rise to the top" story, albeit perhaps in a much more nuanced and roundabout way than intrigue predicted. it's not really that much of an unconventional view, I've heard this many times before (and agree with it). sOs was sHy in bw. | ||
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beg
991 Posts
Just think about how many 2nd finishes Jaedong had in western tournaments. Flash and Jaedong were among the best SC2 players, in my opinion. | ||
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Ej_
47656 Posts
but none of the e: On April 03 2017 05:00 N.geNuity wrote:fantasy FanTaSy turned out really great after he left SKT | ||
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N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
biggest disappointments among people that seriously competed were probably bisu zero fantasy mind best in sc2, probably. Mind was really short though, he retired sc2 2013 which was right in the transition. zerg: soo had very quite like OSL semifinals and round of 8s, hydra had a msl and another ro4 msl finish, soulkey and zero were recognized as incredibly strong zergs, jaedong did have success in the west and did make wcs global finals so that's pretty good success. Effort never really came fully back from retirement and did mediocre in sc2, some code S appearances. protoss: dear/zest (aka wooki) and sOs (shy) were starting to be very strong for protoss, people should have really payed closed attention to shy as he was incredible innovative in broodwar too with some great fun games. Mini I think retired after stx disbanded right but he didn't break out, was a new protoss. Bisu just flat out disappointed. Jangbi kind of retired mid code S but he really was kinda freakish in the last 2 OSL's, bisu was recognized as way better. BeSt didn't play much sc2 but he didn't break out so he could be considered as disappointing terran "elephants" probably disappointed the most as innovation/TY just took over instead of fantasy/flash/mind/sea or the equivalent newcomers with Last. So pretty young terrans that were in brood war for forever but other than floating around in code S for a bit flash/fantasy didn't break out, and fantasy was the best brood war player in the world at the end of brood war (incredible post season performances, beat flash in last grand finals, and 3 OSL finals in a row, and like 14-1 proleague record or something) Because those that watched brood war knew that the rise of zerg was probably soulkey/zero and protoss was going to go down that dear/zest/sOs line, with bisu and best and jangbi. I.e. mostly zerg and protoss were getting away from being reliant upon bisu/jaedong and a bunch of new players were in the pipeline and would have lead brood war. Maybe you can just say Maru would have been a great brood war pro for terrans but just went to sc2 directly instead. | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
On April 03 2017 01:17 Charoisaur wrote: Zest, Inno, Rain, soO, sOs are also "elephants". If sc2 players would go back to BW they would obviously instantly dominate. Just look at Flash, he couldn't make it past the ro16 in the GSL but in BW he's still the best player. That clearly indicates that in the current sc2 scene there are at least 15-20 players who could switch to BW and instantly dominate the scene. Or, SC2 and BW are very different games requiring different skills? I don't buy that SC2 players would dominate BW if they were to switch. The fact that the top BW players failed to perform in SC2 makes me think that the same thing would happen in reverse. However, both games favor young athletes, so I don't doubt that the pros who were playing when there was no SC2 will be eclipsed in the future, perhaps by players who have cut their teeth on SC2. | ||
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lestye
United States4208 Posts
If I recall, in 2013-2015 there was a significant divide in ESF and Kespa players after the Kespa teams made the switch. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
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rotta
5623 Posts
On April 03 2017 04:41 Ej_ wrote: fun fact: Jaedong, FlaSh and ForGG are the only 3 players to win a premier tournament in BW and SC2 Don't forget about Hydra. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16065 Posts
On April 03 2017 12:14 rauk wrote: the point was that the 2010-2012 competition was a farce because literally all the players who switched from kespa at that point were either terrible or washed up (most players had <40% professional winrate if they even got to have a tv game, other than the washed up oldtimers like boxer/july). and considering how pretty much all relevant players were kespa A-teamers after 2012 i think the elephant theory was pretty true The premise of the Elephant in the room article was that there are about 300 players who could switch to sc2 and dominate it within a few months of practicing. Yes the Kespa players performed as a whole better than the esf players after the switch but a lot of esf players were still very competitive (Life, Maru, PartinG, TaeJa, Bomber, Polt, MMA, Byun). According to the article those players wouldn't be competitive at all and completely disappear after the switch. It was very far away from the truth. | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
The real difference when KeSPA came over was the massive improvement in coaching. That was the real only difference after the migration. | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
It wasn't the top-tier players that were the worry. It was the young-guns that had natural talent but were still playing BW. At the very top-end, BW and SC2 diverge in the subtlety of skills needed. It's a classic example of regression to the mean. The strongest BW players did do better than average, just not as well as in BW. This is exactly what you expect if both games require roughly, but not exactly the same skillset. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On April 03 2017 18:29 Charoisaur wrote: The premise of the Elephant in the room article was that there are about 300 players who could switch to sc2 and dominate it within a few months of practicing. Yes the Kespa players performed as a whole better than the esf players after the switch but a lot of esf players were still very competitive (Life, Maru, PartinG, TaeJa, Bomber, Polt, MMA, Byun). According to the article those players wouldn't be competitive at all and completely disappear after the switch. It was very far away from the truth. bomber and mma were ex-kespa tho, and they did have what, 3 years headstart on kespa? | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On April 03 2017 01:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: While it was wrong about the big BW stars like Jaedong, Flash, Bisu, etc dominating in the end the kespa players clearly were the superior players as a whole. Just look at the GSL results after the kespa switch. The list you used as reference is done by a single guy and even though i like stuchiu's content in general it's still only the view of one writer which obviously makes it biased to some extent. Personally i disagree quite heavily with his priorities for the ranking. Kespa had better protoss but equal or worse terrans and zergs | ||
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