As someone who got into the BW scene pretty late and ended up missing all of the past FvJ games, I've always wondered about the kind of hype surrounding their games. In a time where TL flourished due to the sole presence of BW, I could only imagine what things could have been like. The days where BW LRs reached hundreds of pages, regardless of whether it was individual tournaments such as OSL/MSL or just PL. The good old days; days that I have missed being part of such an amazing community and the best RTS game ever made.
Once I came back to BW after my FPM stint ended in 07, I have slowly brushed up on my BW knowledge, much like a sponge soaking up water. I've had a chance to revisit many past great games and FvJ was always at the top of my list. I've had the chance to watch a majority of their games, both the good ones and the underwhelming others. One thing that I can say with pure confidence is that I missed one hell of an amazing rivalry and that is quite regretful.
I look at games like the ones Flash played on Katrina in both GomTV MSL and Bacchus OSL where he executed his mech build with double upgrades pretty well and I'm just amazed by how he does it. Patience, great decision making and harass etc... To see him improve the same build in the Bacchus OSL even further and choke Jaedong even more made it even more impressive.
I look at their game on Loki II and there I see his flawless macro in action. Streams of mnm attacking several locations while Jaedong defends frantically, truly a beautiful sight and something that any viewer can appreciate. I also don't miss out on seeing things from Jaedong's side. His ruthlessness, his constant aggression and multitasking are out of this world. Despite being on the ropes and facing the brunt of Flash's macro constantly, he executes his will with such ferocity and claws his way back to win the game. A mechanical beast unleashed on the world.
With mutalisk micro and his own style of play that is rough to duplicate but also like pure ecstasy to the eyes, Jaedong really made Zerg shine like no other. In his game on Blue Storm in GOM Classic Season 1, Jaedong fought hard and won a determined flash relying on a mutalisk into mutalisk+guardian strat. Love that game since you can see the struggle and back and forth between two closely matched opponents:
As I dig deeper and think about more games, several other ones comes to mind. Games like Rush Hour 3, while a PL game during the 2009 Shinhan Bank Winners League, was another great game that exemplified their great attributes to all the other competitors. Fast forward and the games during the NATE MSL 2009/10 when these titans faced each other only kept on getting more intense till we get the infamous power outage. By this point, both players have long accepted each other as rivals and have forced each other to practice diligently to rise to a level that only a few players have ever reached in the history of the game. Or what about WCG 2010 Korea? One of the first games I watched was the game on Grand Line SE. I've lost count on how many times I've watched it but to me at the time and even now, it's ranked as one of the best BW games of all time. I've even passed on the link to a friend and urged him to watch it because of how epic the game was. As someone who was playing BW again at the time, the great feats of these players was on full display:
Though the professional BW scene ended on a bad note, the scene has been slowly rebuilding itself. The early days of SRT/SSL and small online tournaments like BCTV and 41 Starleague kept interest alive and helped with the recovery. As more and more ex-pro BW players have made a comeback, Afreeca has been a buzz with TBLS coming back. At this point, both Flash and Jaedong have taken their rightful place among the players. Flash despite losing in the Ro8 of the last ASL 3-0 to Last has rebounded extremely well and has been topping charts for spoonmatches (balloon matches) for months now. His macro and micro are impeccable and he makes quick and very effective decisions.
A lot of players have complete faith in his abilities to win games, to the point where there is a general subconscious thought in the mind of the players: "Don't doubt flash!"
His trademark playstyle is still alive and well and his APM has been hitting upwards of 380. He has been slowing getting back in form and has been ripping Zergs like EffOrt, ZerO and herO left and right with all kinds of strategies such as 5 rax +1 and mech, both on stream and off-stream in preparation for his upcoming match with none other than Jaedong!
FvJ! 7 years in the making!
His current winrate is over 75% in TvZ with only EffOrt able to take some games off him. It's gotten bad to the point where a lot of Zergs are hoping that Jaedong can find his weakness, that Jaedong can stop this slaughter and solve Flash!
As for Jaedong, he has been practicing relentlessly with Last, Mong, Light and Hiya off-stream. Reports of him grinding a ton of games in preparation and of great improvements on a daily basis are floating around. As someone who has the hopes and dreams of Zergs everywhere, Jaedong has a lot to bear but he is the chosen one!
Despite all the hardships such as pain in his wrists, he still marches onwards determined to show his fans great games and win it all. His competitive drive has not lessened while he was in hiatus either! He has already slain several Terrans during ASL2 through his own trademark aggression and mind games and he will not be stopped!
As Hiya put it recently: "I predict that flash will win the game. After practice with JD, I changed my mind. '"
In 0m 0s, Jaedong is set to face Flash!
History has proven multiple times that only one zerg can stand up to Lee Young Ho. That was Jaedong then and it will be Jaedong now. It's time for Jaedong to topple Flash and rule above all others.
This is Jaedong's time to shine! The Tyrant is coming!
For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
I feel so lucky that when I started watching BW, was when the Jaedong/Flash rivalry really started. I stayed up late for all their finals and have seen all of their games at least once (some way more then that). I kind of wish this match could have happened in 6 months as I feel Jaedong still isn't in form, but maybe he'll surprise. I am expecting a 3-0 just because Flash has been back stronger, but damnit I am still going to be watching with excitement!
On January 17 2017 16:02 Uldridge wrote: One of the best JvF games I've ever seen, hope you enjoy if you haven't caught it in the past https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDj0DkFYAEA
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
Just because a matchup is slightly in the favor of one side doesnt constitute 3-1 in finals? O.O but ok yeah. whatever you say bud.
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
No way. Flash was so much better than JD from 2010 on, both head to head and against other opponents. The matchup thing doesnt really hold water because Flash also dominated TvP against Bisu, Stork, Best and others.
OMG, I'm so glad I just checked TL randomly right now! I was just saying to someone yesterday "I would give anything to see another flash vs jaedong game of broodwar."
This just made my day! It starts in like an hour, right? This is so perfect.
Jaedong > Flash for other reasons that what parkufarku wrote!
On January 17 2017 16:02 Uldridge wrote: One of the best JvF games I've ever seen, hope you enjoy if you haven't caught it in the past https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDj0DkFYAEA
On January 17 2017 16:45 jrkirby wrote: OMG, I'm so glad I just checked TL randomly right now! I was just saying to someone yesterday "I would give anything to see another flash vs jaedong game of broodwar."
This just made my day! It starts in like an hour, right? This is so perfect.
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
If you really think BW is so imbalanced, why do you bother watching it and fanboi'ing over it?
If your perspective is truly accurate, then isn't Jaedong just a moron for professionally playing such a weak race?
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: 3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 7080%+ deserves recognition on its own
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
Fixed it for you.
About the team...I think it's more important that Flash had a stable team with KT (Bisu had SKT, Stork - Samsung) while JD didn't have one.
Now if only Boxer vs Yellow VODs were are easy to find and quality-wise good as Flash vs Jaedong... I will always regret not being born in Korea and watching that shit on TV as a kid.
On January 18 2017 03:17 LightSpectra wrote: And what is that supposed to prove? Should we redistribute some of Flash's medals to Jaedong in honor of the fact that he had harder circumstances?
All FvJ proves is that Flash, the best BW player of all time, still has (many) imperfections. But it takes some1 like JD to make you truly realise that Flash has them and that those can be exploited to beat him. Even though I'm a huge Flash fan, I feel the best Flash vs Jaedong games are where Jaedong wins. Because it is simply amazing to see someone as good as Flash being dismantled piece by piece and forced into submission. (The game on Rush Hour 3 is + Show Spoiler +
Jaedong is better player that Flash, Zerg is much more harder to play at this level, just look at the way TvZ plays out, if the terran doesnt take any damage from zerg on the muta part, terran he literally just won, Terran just needs to have open space to beat zerg, since with stim you are able to micro marines vs anything a zerg can throw at them.
and lets not talk about late game army vs late game army, zerg has a really hard time controlling everything at once meanwhile Terran just siege and Stim.
Both races are insanely hard and the fact that Flash plays terran doesn't diminish any of his accomplishments. In TvZ in particular my (uneducated) opinion is that Zerg often plays with less information and has such a reliance on individual units in the game, that they can almost be considered hero units (mutalisks, lurkers). All in all, combined with a map pool that might favour terran as of right now, zerg's mistakes feel more consequential.
On January 18 2017 07:28 SC2BF3Love wrote: Jaedong is better player that Flash, Zerg is much more harder to play at this level, just look at the way TvZ plays out, if the terran doesnt take any damage from zerg on the muta part, terran he literally just won, Terran just needs to have open space to beat zerg, since with stim you are able to micro marines vs anything a zerg can throw at them.
and lets not talk about late game army vs late game army, zerg has a really hard time controlling everything at once meanwhile Terran just siege and Stim.
Aside from the fact that your analysis is just wrong... Flash indeed makes T look overpowered, but Jaedong playing against just about anybody else makes Z look overpowered. If we remove TBLS's trophies from the post-Savior period, Z has been the most dominant of the three races, with starleague golds from GGPlay, July, EffOrt, Luxury, Calm, and Hydra. By contrast, the only T winners were Fantasy and ForGG. (Protoss looks even worse.)
Besides, all this talk of imba is pointless. There's no TvZ in a vacuum, you always play on maps, and maps have varying level of balance. Certain map pools overall favored T at times and Z at other times. That's not even to mention shifts in the meta-game.
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
No way. Flash was so much better than JD from 2010 on, both head to head and against other opponents. The matchup thing doesnt really hold water because Flash also dominated TvP against Bisu, Stork, Best and others.
If you're going to talk time periods, probably shouldn't forget that Flash lost basically all of the important games in 2011/2012 so "2010 on" should be more like "2010-2011" =)
On January 17 2017 16:39 FlaShFTW wrote: Just because a matchup is slightly in the favor of one side doesnt constitute 3-1 in finals? O.O but ok yeah. whatever you say bud.
I wouldn't say slightly. A Terran at Flash or Fantasy's level was just unstoppable (Fantasy made a lot of mistakes and wasn't refined as Flash). As long as it wasn't a straight up mistake, outplay, or cheese, T had a substantial advantage. Zergs were forced to open Mutas as part of the standard BO but if the Mutas did no damage, that was already a sign that Z was gonna lose that game. A lot of Zergs would just die before Hive hit, but those that did make it to Hive relied on Ultralings to bail them out. That was still ok before the latter days of BW when Terrans started incorporating mech principles in Zerg matchups, combining mass mines, and tanks, BCs and vessels to just annihilate the Zerg meat army. And that still may have been bearable if spawn broodlings cost 100 energy or less. But it cost a whooping 150 energy. Combine all this with the fact that Zerg had to play reactive to Terran; they were forced to go big econ openings to keep up with T but had a substantial risk of all sorts of cheese and attacks that, even when failed, wouldn't mean instant loss for T.
Now, am I saying a better Zerg player would lose to a worse skilled Terran player? No. Skill level overcomes balance thankfully. But when you are at the top, and everyone around you is nearly your equal nor better than you, that was Flash's scenario. The closest person in skill that could take him down was Jaedong, but JD played Zerg and Flash played Terran.
As 'balanced' as people like to label BW, it still was not at the top level. We even have Zero today saying that a good Zerg will not beat a good Terran straight up unless T makes mistakes. And this is very true.
On January 17 2017 16:44 nbaker wrote: No way. Flash was so much better than JD from 2010 on, both head to head and against other opponents. The matchup thing doesnt really hold water because Flash also dominated TvP against Bisu, Stork, Best and others.
You can't just say an X player is better than Y player. You have to look at the entire circumstances. The maps they played on during the time, the races they played, the teams they played on.
TvP was the most balanced non-mirror matchup, but at Flash or Fantasy's level, it was still skewed as advantageous for Terrans. It's funny because the matchup is Protoss-favored until progamer level.
There was a lot of timing windows where T could kill P, even a strong FD push is included in these. P started doing a lot better in this matchup when they started abusing carrier transitions and relied on strong 3rd base macro plays to prepare them into late game, where they could use arbiters and storm to dwindle the Terran deathball army. Cost for cost though, P's army just wasn't as cost efficient as T's, especially if you consider the fact that P's army was much more gas dependent than T's. And without good storms and good shuttle drops or arbiter spells, a P army just wasn't gonna win against a T army straight up late game. So the burden was on Protosses to pull off insane spells and critical zealot bombs.
Flash beating Stork is nothing to scoff at, seeing as how Stork was a PvT specialist. Same for Best. But Bisu, no. I don't think Stork was ever at Flash's level in terms of skill. So Flash beating them doesn't disprove any balance issues Terran has.
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
On January 18 2017 07:28 SC2BF3Love wrote: Jaedong is better player that Flash, Zerg is much more harder to play at this level, just look at the way TvZ plays out, if the terran doesnt take any damage from zerg on the muta part, terran he literally just won, Terran just needs to have open space to beat zerg, since with stim you are able to micro marines vs anything a zerg can throw at them.
and lets not talk about late game army vs late game army, zerg has a really hard time controlling everything at once meanwhile Terran just siege and Stim.
Aside from the fact that your analysis is just wrong... Flash indeed makes T look overpowered, but Jaedong playing against just about anybody else makes Z look overpowered. If we remove TBLS's trophies from the post-Savior period, Z has been the most dominant of the three races, with starleague golds from GGPlay, July, EffOrt, Luxury, Calm, and Hydra. By contrast, the only T winners were Fantasy and ForGG. (Protoss looks even worse.)
Besides, all this talk of imba is pointless. There's no TvZ in a vacuum, you always play on maps, and maps have varying level of balance. Certain map pools overall favored T at times and Z at other times. That's not even to mention shifts in the meta-game.
pretty much this. If Terran looks imba, it's usually due to several factors and of course, it's also Flash playing the race.
I love both players and wanted Jaedong to take their series, hence the ending of this blog. However, it's outright ridiculous to see some people chuck Flash's wins up to his race, rather than the player's hard work, map pool and a lot of other factors.
On January 17 2017 14:59 parkufarku wrote: For those of you who came to BW scene too late to witness this:
1. It is predicted by experts that JD would've beat Flash in the "power outage" game
2. Flash should be required to return some of his trophies for abusing the T's broken race advantages
3. What JD did in the ZvZ matchup where it was the most volatile - beat so many other Zergs that his % was hovering 70%+ deserves recognition on its own
4. Flash was known for his heavy macro standard play, and sometimes greedy 3 CC plays, while JD was known for his aggressive style that wasn't exactly cheese openings
5. Greatest feat JD had done was beat a proxy 2 gate after he opened a 3 hatch before pool. It was supposed to be a Build Order instant loss
6. Flash had better arguably better teammates; Jaedong had Hiya and that was pretty much it
7. For Jaedong to win as much as he did against Flash playing an uphill and unfair ZvT matchup is another accomplishment on its own.
To me, Jaedong >>>>> Flash if you consider these factors
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/f/f8/Jaedong06.jpg/201px-Jaedong06.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N7oIV.gif)
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