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Back in HotS, when I had a problem with a matchup, I'd come to TL for help. The answer would usually be "watch X pro game and copy Y build". And it would work alright. But there were some builds you simply couldn't copy - like anything PartinG or Maru did. Their control was simply too good, and no Diamond League player could ever extract the same value out of their units. This led me to think that some builds were simply not viable below a certain skill level.
The counter argument I would always get was that, "well, your opponent is ALSO worse." While that's true, I think it ignores the fundamentals of why certain builds worked. For example, not making Vikings and Ghosts in PvT ONLY worked if you were a multitasking and micro god because it was considerably easier for the Protoss to defend with Photon Overcharge and A-move Colossi... but if you were skilled you could abuse the low mobility of Protoss units.
Fast forward to LotV. I think it's more apparent than ever that certain builds are "too hard" to copy. LotV is a lot harder than HotS. A LOT. It's so hard that Korean pros are saying it's too hard. That says something, because StarCraft is already the hardest game in the world.
This brings me to a point - are pro builds still relevant to Diamond and below players? Is our multitasking good enough to play PvT without splash damage like Zest? Or do do Phoenix / Adept harass openings in PvZ?
Let's look at PvT. Pros use superior multitasking to gain an economic lead throughout the game by harassing with Adepts. While they're harassing, they're building more economy. They're also relying on fewer units to defend things like widow mine drops and Liberators. If a widow mine drop comes in while I'm harassing and my reaction time is half a second slower than Zest.... that's a potentially dead mineral line. That destroys my whole plan of getting ahead in econ. if I miss a warpin round because I'm trying to save the Adepts I dropped somewhere... will my army be big enough to overtake the Terran? Probably not.
Looks at PvZ. The multitasking required to harass with Phoenixes, adepts, and also macro perfectly at the same time is off the charts. Pros who can do such a strategy and not fall behind in macro can get themselves ahead and win games. But for me, the Diamond League player. Is this strategy worth it? Every drone kill is pointless if I'm missing warp-in rounds and worker production back home.
Is this what is responsible for such a huge disparity between what we see at the Korean pro level, Foreigner pro level, and casual level? After all, it's not uncommon to hear "Zerg is unbeatable" on this forum, regardless of Zerg performance in tournaments.
So as a Diamond League player - should I be trying to copy these builds? Certainly from my record over the last few days, the answer is a clear no. It comes down to a question of "do you want to win more or do you want to improve." At this point in my life, I simply don't have the hours necessary to sink into the game to get to the level where mechanically I can execute builds like this. But some people might....
I'd be interested in hearing from others about this topic. Not just Diamond Protoss players, but players of all 3 races and across all leagues. Do you practice pro builds? Do you have any success with them? Please share!
EDIT - just a quick memo: this is not intended as a X race is too hard piece. It's only a look at specific strategies used by pros. If harassing with 2 different types of units is too hard for me, maybe I should instead harass with ONE kind of unit and sit at home with the rest but not miss production cycles. That's the thinking I want to encourage. I don't want this to turn into a "Lurkers are OP at Diamond level" thread.
  
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i copy pro "sim cities" inside my terran base.
i play Terran 40% of the time on 1 account and Random 60% of the time on my other account. I learn Terran builds by watching replays of me losing when i draw Zerg or Protoss and my opponent is Terran. I tell my opponent my race so that i'm vulnerable to race specific cheese.
when i'm just dicking around i'll lie about my race to see if i can get my opponent to rage.
i think the best thing to do is copy the builds of players who have a similar APM to you but a higher ranking.
On August 26 2016 05:24 DinoMight wrote:
EDIT - just a quick memo: this is not intended as a X race is too hard piece. It's only a look at specific strategies used by pros. If harassing with 2 different types of units is too hard for me,
Terran is too hard.. i'd probably have a spot at Blizzcon already locked up if i were playing Zerg.
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I have believed this for a long time. There have always been builds that are simply impractical for a Diamond league player like you or I to try and emulate; MMA's double drop from early Wings of Liberty (dropping in two places, not dropping two medivacs in the same place) comes to mind. While I can't remember the specific build, I remember getting a lot of free wins at one point on the ladder by players who tried to emulate a very popular pro build and almost always failed miserably.
Over time, more and more professional builds have come to occupy this group. Especially once HotS came out, macro Oracle builds have always been part of this group, imo. You're investing 300 minerals and 300 gas into a unit, and in return, you're supposed to use it all game to tag stuff and not let it die, while not sacrificing your macro or other tasks.
So we need to adjust our play to what makes sense to us. I do a lot of Colossus play in PvT, because it's the easiest way to play, if not the most optimal. I put cannons up at my most vulnerable base when I'm 3-basing, and all the bases where my army isn't located if I start 4-basing. I do a lot of all-ins in PvZ, because Ravagers are a lot stronger if you can't reliably dodge 95% of Corrosive Biles. Pros use them as a zoning tool, Diamond players use them to kill groups of units. I never open Stargate.
But this can work both ways. In PvP, I go for Disruptors every game, because my opponents can't dodge them properly. If we have weaknesses that make you unable to execute pro builds, our opponents on the ladder have weaknesses too. And personally, I see no shame in exploiting these weaknesses and playing builds that hide mine.
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You should use what you see in pro games more as a reference than something to emulate. There are things you can learn from them such as compositions, or cannon rushing positions. And some builds do work well at a lower level, and are more effective even due to your opponent's level being lower. Units like widow mines or lurkers are better when both players are at a lower level, and you should incorporate them in your play when possible. You may not be able to do well in PvZ with pro-level builds requiring god-like phoenix control, but there are some professional chargelot/archon builds that should work very well at the diamond level. Pick and choose what you copy.
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Italy12246 Posts
Trying to copy the precise timings, army movements etc has always been pretty much impossible - that's why you're in Diamond and not GM in the first place. It is still very very useful to study pro games to figure out what they are doing that is good and makes sense, especially if your game knowledge is good enough to spot tiny details that are actually a pretty big deal.
For example, i had a period a couple of months ago when i couldn't beat lurkers to save my life. I went back and compared my games to pros, and i figured that pros emphasized getting a much faster storm over lots of archons compared to me, and that they were very precise in busting lurker fields while i tended to just amove and pray for the best way too often.
You don't have to play like Zest to learn from his play, but there are definitely things you can't copy. I don't think most builds are simlar to some BW styles that were outright unplayable by anyone by top pros (Sair/Reaver and SK Terran for instance).
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No you can't execute a pro build like they do, but can you copy the build ORDER? Yes, it won't be as fast as your zest or dear, but just putting down buildings simply in the right order is a big improvement over improvising especially when you want to push for masters.
A mistake that a lot of people do while copying builds, and you mentionned it, is to emphasize too much on the harass part and then make macro mistakes behind it
When using a build, you should alway focus on the macro part before you even try to tackle the harass part, otherwise you lose the potency and the whole point of the build.
When i win because its generally not because it allows me to do critical damage while having a better economy, but because its just a stronger base to build my macro around, by having well thought out and logical building construction order.
Say i go for the build i'm currently using in pvz, neebs glaive 3 gate into third + double robo opening.
Do i manage to get my third as early as ~4 minute like he does? No
Do i kill 10 or more drones every time through brilliant harass and multitask? No
But does the build allow me to get the most amount of units of the ideal composition? And with the best possible upgrades in the least amount of time i could manage without using the build?
Yes, because you can basically just win off of not missing warpin cycles and probe production (in diamond at least), as it already gives you every infrastructure you need to transition into the midgame without wondering what you should be making next
About the question should i copy builds or not : as a random player that didn't want to learn every single matchup, i did use a "lets wing it" strategy in some of my matchups for a while.
One thing is sure, playing without builds requires better scouting and greater decision making.
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On August 27 2016 01:19 ArtyK wrote:
No you can't execute a pro build like they do, but can you copy the build ORDER? Yes, it won't be as fast as your zest or dear, but just putting down buildings simply in the right order is a big improvement over improvising especially when you want to push for masters.
A mistake that a lot of people do while copying builds, and you mentionned it, is to emphasize too much on the harass part and then make macro mistakes behind it
When using a build, you should alway focus on the macro part before you even try to tackle the harass part, otherwise you lose the potency and the whole point of the build.
When i win because its generally not because it allows me to do critical damage while having a better economy, but because its just a stronger base to build my macro around, by having well thought out and logical building construction order.
Say i go for the build i'm currently using in pvz, neebs glaive 3 gate into third + double robo opening.
Do i manage to get my third as early as ~4 minute like he does? No
Do i kill 10 or more drones every time through brilliant harass and multitask? No
But does the build allow me to get the most amount of units of the ideal composition? And with the best possible upgrades in the least amount of time i could manage without using the build?
Yes, because you can basically just win off of not missing warpin cycles and probe production (in diamond at least), as it already gives you every infrastructure you need to transition into the midgame without wondering what you should be making next
About the question should i copy builds or not : as a random player that didn't want to learn every single matchup, i did use a "lets wing it" strategy in some of my matchups for a while.
One thing is sure, playing without builds requires better scouting and greater decision making.
But my whole point is that a build order is built to achieve a certain objective (harass) and that as a Diamond league player I don't have the ability to macro and harass as well as the pro.
For example a stargate > oracle opening effectively sets aside 300/300 for a unit that's never going to die and will provide valuable information all game long. However, I'm way more likely to fuck up, lose the Oracle, and never get a proper return on investment. Should I still invest the 300/300? Or am I better off just building a Robo?
That's what I'm talking about.
I'm not saying we should "wing it" but definitely we have to adjust our builds from what the pros are using to compensate for lack of skill.
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On August 27 2016 01:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 01:19 ArtyK wrote:
No you can't execute a pro build like they do, but can you copy the build ORDER? Yes, it won't be as fast as your zest or dear, but just putting down buildings simply in the right order is a big improvement over improvising especially when you want to push for masters.
A mistake that a lot of people do while copying builds, and you mentionned it, is to emphasize too much on the harass part and then make macro mistakes behind it
When using a build, you should alway focus on the macro part before you even try to tackle the harass part, otherwise you lose the potency and the whole point of the build.
When i win because its generally not because it allows me to do critical damage while having a better economy, but because its just a stronger base to build my macro around, by having well thought out and logical building construction order.
Say i go for the build i'm currently using in pvz, neebs glaive 3 gate into third + double robo opening.
Do i manage to get my third as early as ~4 minute like he does? No
Do i kill 10 or more drones every time through brilliant harass and multitask? No
But does the build allow me to get the most amount of units of the ideal composition? And with the best possible upgrades in the least amount of time i could manage without using the build?
Yes, because you can basically just win off of not missing warpin cycles and probe production (in diamond at least), as it already gives you every infrastructure you need to transition into the midgame without wondering what you should be making next
About the question should i copy builds or not : as a random player that didn't want to learn every single matchup, i did use a "lets wing it" strategy in some of my matchups for a while.
One thing is sure, playing without builds requires better scouting and greater decision making.
But my whole point is that a build order is built to achieve a certain objective (harass) and that as a Diamond league player I don't have the ability to macro and harass as well as the pro. For example a stargate > oracle opening effectively sets aside 300/300 for a unit that's never going to die and will provide valuable information all game long. However, I'm way more likely to fuck up, lose the Oracle, and never get a proper return on investment. Should I still invest the 300/300? Or am I better off just building a Robo? That's what I'm talking about.
Then i wonder how i ve been doing it all along as a diamond player -_-
Yes some builds are harder than others, doesn't make my point about the importance of builds any more wrong.
Whether the build has intensive harass or not, you should focus on perfecting the macro part first, even if that means you run in once with oracle and then let it idle for the next 2 minutes.
I've said it in the protoss thread already, i don't use stargate because i don't feel comfortable multitasking that way, so yeah i do compensate for lack of skill, although i'm pretty sure with some practice i would get good results with stargate without having the best multi task, phoenixes always get value.
I also talked about the TC glaive build, maybe try this one?
You're the only one that can figure out if youre better off with robo, tc or stargate openings though
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On August 27 2016 01:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2016 01:19 ArtyK wrote:
No you can't execute a pro build like they do, but can you copy the build ORDER? Yes, it won't be as fast as your zest or dear, but just putting down buildings simply in the right order is a big improvement over improvising especially when you want to push for masters.
A mistake that a lot of people do while copying builds, and you mentionned it, is to emphasize too much on the harass part and then make macro mistakes behind it
When using a build, you should alway focus on the macro part before you even try to tackle the harass part, otherwise you lose the potency and the whole point of the build.
When i win because its generally not because it allows me to do critical damage while having a better economy, but because its just a stronger base to build my macro around, by having well thought out and logical building construction order.
Say i go for the build i'm currently using in pvz, neebs glaive 3 gate into third + double robo opening.
Do i manage to get my third as early as ~4 minute like he does? No
Do i kill 10 or more drones every time through brilliant harass and multitask? No
But does the build allow me to get the most amount of units of the ideal composition? And with the best possible upgrades in the least amount of time i could manage without using the build?
Yes, because you can basically just win off of not missing warpin cycles and probe production (in diamond at least), as it already gives you every infrastructure you need to transition into the midgame without wondering what you should be making next
About the question should i copy builds or not : as a random player that didn't want to learn every single matchup, i did use a "lets wing it" strategy in some of my matchups for a while.
One thing is sure, playing without builds requires better scouting and greater decision making.
But my whole point is that a build order is built to achieve a certain objective (harass) and that as a Diamond league player I don't have the ability to macro and harass as well as the pro. For example a stargate > oracle opening effectively sets aside 300/300 for a unit that's never going to die and will provide valuable information all game long. However, I'm way more likely to fuck up, lose the Oracle, and never get a proper return on investment. Should I still invest the 300/300? Or am I better off just building a Robo? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not saying we should "wing it" but definitely we have to adjust our builds from what the pros are using to compensate for lack of skill.
Given your example, you have to look at it from a different angle.
The pros use the oracle so well and squeeze so much out of it, how much can I squeeze out of the oracle? Should I practice using it as much as possible so my proficiency increases? Or should I rely on the observer for scouting?
When copying the pros, you have to be honest about your skill level. Ask yourself, how closely can I emulate what the pros are doing? If its not realistic, do I practice so I can get as close as possible?
If the oracle isn't a unit you feel comfortable using, than don't worry so much about it. Look to other areas of improvement instead.
As well, don't try to focus on emulating the pros. Try to focus on improving small parts of your game, but with the emulation as the larger picture.
For example, lets say PartinG does an awesome build that involves oracles, sentries, and high templars. These are all micro intensive units, so it requires the precision of PartinG. You try it and botch things up pretty bad. Your next step is to try to improve on each individual unit control. Don't worry about using each one together, try to make small improvements with each unit alone.
Don't try to perfect the entire build all at once, try to improve on small parts of it individually.
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EPT
