• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 13:47
CEST 19:47
KST 02:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple2BSL Season 2312Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon101Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10
StarCraft 2
General
Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser
Tourneys
ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 544 Double Trouble The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses Mutation # 542 The Ascended
Brood War
General
Syncronization issues and can't find games PLAYzone Challenge - open offline tour in Prague Bot on ladder NaDa's Body SC4ALL II: Brood War Player Announcement 3/4 - soO
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [IPSL] IPSL is Back With Winter 26-27! PLAYzone Challenge - open offline tour in Prague
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne EVE Corporation Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread All you football fans (soccer)!
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9948 users

A Game of Dice

Blogs > Sholip
Post a Reply
Sholip
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
Hungary422 Posts
July 23 2016 16:55 GMT
#1
So this is my first blogpost, ever. I actually never intended to write a blog, but sometimes I just have interesting (to me, at least) ideas and recently I thought, why not just write it in a blogpost. So here it is. Hope at least some of you will find it interesting.

So I’m not sure if that makes me a strange person, but I tend to like to analyze things I find interesting (you may have noticed this already). I like to find solutions, optima to problems that challenge me. The instrument for this is usually math, and when it fails or cannot be applied, coding (this is the real challenge, as I know just enough programming to make very simple codes work). Sometimes I just think, “I could totally write a program for this problem,” and sometimes I do, but more often than not I just start it, and at some point I realize it would be too tedious either mathematically or technically to go further, and I leave it altogether.

A few weeks ago I went on holiday with my friends, and among others we played a game that is most commonly known as Liar’s Dice. We play this game from time to time and I have to say it’s pretty funny, calling each other liars and all that. (Tip: put on some epic music in the background and time your “Liar!” calls with a particularly epic part for maximum fun ) On a side note, I totally won all the games, with a good amount of luck, but also maybe solid play (hehe). After coming home, I started to wonder about strategies to play the game and how they could be optimized. The game itself is simple enough for some very basic probability theory to do the work, I thought.

Rules of the game: there are several variants of Liar’s Dice, the one I usually play plays like this:
The players are sitting around a table, each of them has 5 dice. The dice are rolled, and the starting player calls a face value (2 to 6) and a number he thinks there are of said face value among all the dice on the table. Ones are always wild, counting as the face value called. The next player has 3 options:

Bid higher: make a call by increasing the face value while leaving the count unchanged, or increasing the count and naming a face value of their choice (except 1).
Call lie: doubting the previous statement, saying that there aren’t as many of the called face values as stated. If there are indeed fewer than what the previous player called, he loses a die; if there are at least as many as called, the doubting player loses a die. The player who lost a die proceeds to make a new call. If they don’t have any left, they are eliminated, and the next player calls.
Call truth: stating that there are exactly as many dice as called previously. If there are indeed as many as in the call, the player who made the true call loses a die; if there are fewer or more than in the call, the player calling truth loses a die. The player who lost a die proceeds to make a new call. If they don’t have any left, they are eliminated, and the next player calls. The option to call truth stabilizes the game, as in low-dice situations it could otherwise happen that both a lie and a higher bid is pretty unlikely.

The game goes on until only one player has dice left – that player wins the game.

So that’s where coding comes in. I was thinking about writing a program where you can observe AIs playing each other (and also play against them possibly), and see how they do. The end goal of the project is to create an AI that plays the game reliably well, and to compare how different AIs fare against one another.

The fun part is figuring out how the AIs should work. An AI is able to exactly know the probabilities of different calls in all situations, but what it does then with these values is not trivial at all. That’s what I’ll be trying to figure out.

I would be really happy if you could also contribute with your ideas, hopefully even posting you AI ideas. It does not have to be very complicated or technical, just general ideas, for example “Always call the most likely bid, and never call lie,” or “Call a lie if it’s probability is at least 30%, otherwise bid the most likely one”. If enough AI suggestions come in, I can run a mini-tournament, simulating games between them, and determine which one does the best in the long run.

Cheers,
Sholip

*****
"A hero is no braver than an ordinary man, but he is brave five minutes longer. Also, Zest is best." – Ralph Waldo Emerson
Caissa
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States48 Posts
July 23 2016 23:24 GMT
#2
I absolutely love Liar's Dice! One of my favorite games.

My friend was in a Stanford computer science course that actually made them write a program to compete in a tournament with other students. I think most programs solely using probability really struggled against one team that programmed theirs to bluff in the first round, but at a low enough number that it was still probable.

I don't really have any experience, but here is a link to the assignment paper if you're interested:
+ Show Spoiler +
web.stanford.edu
Don't underestimate the value of Doing Nothing, of just going along, listening to all the things you can't hear, and not bothering.
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
July 24 2016 13:34 GMT
#3
This is the most popular drinking game in China. The main difference is that instead of losing a die, you have to drink.
And there is no "call truth".
Because you can do numbers from 1 to 9 with one hand in Chinese, you don't even need to speak/hear you just play with hands. It's likely the reason why it's so popular in clubs where the music volume is deafening.

ॐ
fifa1234
Profile Joined July 2016
3 Posts
July 27 2016 07:47 GMT
#4
--- Nuked ---
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
16:00
WardiTV 10 Group C Replay Cast
TaKeTV 363
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 136
UpATreeSC 103
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 28370
Shuttle 615
Dewaltoss 133
910 51
Trap 49
HiyA 42
ToSsGirL 25
Rock 23
yabsab 12
Dota 2
Gorgc8067
Fuzer 252
BananaSlamJamma159
febbydoto40
Counter-Strike
fl0m4702
Other Games
Grubby1936
Beastyqt566
B2W.Neo412
summit1g350
Hui .223
Liquid`VortiX186
C9.Mang0150
KnowMe130
ArmadaUGS83
QueenE75
Trikslyr45
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream13807
StarCraft: Brood War
Afreeca ASL 349
Other Games
BasetradeTV39
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile120
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 23
• 80smullet 14
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 5626
League of Legends
• Nemesis2513
Other Games
• Shiphtur280
Upcoming Events
The PiG Daily
4h 13m
ByuN vs Rogue
herO vs SHIN
Serral vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings
16h 13m
AI Arena Tournament
23h 13m
BSL: Ladder Tournament
1d 1h
GSL
1d 14h
Yamato Cup
1d 21h
BSL Open Qualifier
2 days
BSL Open Qualifier
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Soma vs Jaedong
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
3 days
Leta vs Soulkey
PiGosaur Cup
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-23
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Calamity Invitational
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.