• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:50
CEST 22:50
KST 05:50
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins Maestros of the Game 229ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 29-July 5): Solar Doubles0MC vs IdrA, Boxer vs Nal_rA to be Legacy Matches @ BlizzCon415.0.16 Hotfix (June 30) - Balance + Bug Fixes40Weekly Cups (June 22-28): Zergs thrive in new patch5[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation0
StarCraft 2
General
Serral wins Maestros of the Game 2 Is the larve respawn broken? 5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) 5.0.16 Hotfix (June 30) - Balance + Bug Fixes Weekly Cups (June 29-July 5): Solar Doubles
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL CK #5 Race War HomeStory Cup 29 RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Vespene Cup #1 — $300+ USD, July 10
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
Mutation # 533 Die Together The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 532 Nuclear Family Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery
Brood War
General
Snow On New ASL S22 Map, Zerg Nerf ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Starcraft vs Retro Category on Twitch
Tourneys
CSLAN 4 is Coming! Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 The Casual Games of the Week Thread [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2026! ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance TL Mafia Community Thread TL Mafia Power Rank Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread YouTube Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread McBoner: A hockey love story Tennis[sport] Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
FPS when play League Of Legend on laptop How to clean a TTe Thermaltake keyboard? Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Major Shifts in the Gaming I…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Evil Gacha Games and the…
ffswowsucks
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5694 users

The fallacy of a null value in game balance

Blogs > hoby2000
Post a Reply
hoby2000
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States918 Posts
December 31 2015 19:29 GMT
#1
Working on my own game and have had this thought brewing for awhile, so here it is:

The difference between nerfing and buffing is the difference between addition and subtraction - the number either goes up or goes down. However, nerfing and buffing in game balance has one rule that will always be true - the value of something is never null. If it is, then it's not a value anymore. If a marine does 0 damage with his gun, he's not doing damage. If he does .00000000000000000000000000001 damage, he's still doing damage, but only at a rate that in the given balance would be considered useless, or null. But it is not in fact null because the other values could be brought to the same level where such minimalist damage would now be considered worth something to the user, and not null.

A value in a gamecan therefore only be relatively null and not completely null unless it is non-existent. When talking about game balance, it's important to note that the act of nerfing or buffing things in themselves carry no weight unless there are other things to compare to it. Neither are good choices simply for their sakes - i.e. buffing is always better than nerfing or vise versa. Nerfing something into oblivion is no different than buffing it to God status.

Competitive games like DotA, Starcraft, League, Counter-strike, Hearthstone etc. are their own eco-systems. I'm not even talking about the community surrounding the games either - the games themselves are ecosystems. While a developer may have created the game, it's impossible for said developer to understand the depth of a change they may make because once a game's complexity reaches a certain point, changing anything could have a wider spread effect than one sees, especially when you can only see from one vantage point clearly.

It's not just competitive games that re like this either - Earlier generations of games have had all sorts of flaws pointed out because the developer thought they had done a good enough job hiding exploits. One of my favorites is the Zelda: Ocarina of Time glitch where you kill Ganon with a deku stick - The deku stick has a constant hit box, but you can only use it as a gild. You have to fight Ganon as an adult, but a certain glitch in the first dungeon of the game allows you to fight him as a kid, making the fight absurdly easy because you can just stand behind him.

The point of the deku stick having a constant hitbox was so it could catch fire when it collided with any flame. This is something you do a lot in OoT where you light torches in a certain order or to reveal another secret. Nintendo at the time believed that because the Deku Stick could not be used as an adult, why should they care? They didn't know about the Gohma glitch, and if they did, the way it's done requires precise understanding of movement and position that it would be a freak accident for people to figure it out.

Eco-systems take time to adapt to new changes that are introduced to it. Video games (competitive and non-competitive) are not much different in that aspect. In the times of Ocarina of Time, we didn't have consoles hooked to the internet to patch bugs out and prevent people from using glitches to get places in games. Modern day games are provided with such conveniences, but at a consequence - similar to how the Zelda glitch above allows someone to fight the last boss with ease, changes via patches can cause similar effects. The delicate art of balance is not simply nerfing and buffing - it's also understanding when the eco-system has time to adapt to a new change, especially when it will likely have unintended consequences.

A lesson without pain is meaningless for nothing can be gained without giving something in return.
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
January 01 2016 06:55 GMT
#2
Re: deku stick:

It doesn't have a constant hitbox (against enemies, anyway) any more than the sword does; during the fights what you're seeing is the player activating the infinite sword glitch. Deku stick does more damage and doesn't get knocked away by Ganon so that's why it's used.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
Cascade
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
Australia5405 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-01-02 06:41:29
January 02 2016 06:39 GMT
#3
Are you using the word "null" as meaning "zero"? I don't think that is standard use of the word for most people. Usually it means "no information" or something like that.

For the part with game balance and zero vs very small damage, maybe you will grasp it better if you think about it as multipliers rather than addition. Ie, the relevant information isnt that the marines does 1 more damage, but that the marine does 20% more damage. Increasing AtG liberators damage by +1 wouldn't make much difference, but +20% damage would be comparable to the marines +20%. Thinking about it on this log-scale instead, suddenly the difference between 0.000001 and 0 is huge (well, infinite), which I think was your point.

So if you just think about things on a log-scale, you automatically see that "everything deals 100x as much damage" doesn't change anything, and your example will no longer be a complicated point. It is not relevant that the liberator does 64 damage more than marine, it is important that it deals 10x as much damage.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
17:00
Mid Season Playoffs
Cham vs YoungYakovLIVE!
ArT vs Harstem
Krystianer vs Iba
SteadfastSC177
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 475
SteadfastSC 177
IndyStarCraft 160
Railgan 82
JuggernautJason27
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 1808
Dewaltoss 169
Mong 168
ggaemo 149
910 37
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm77
Counter-Strike
fl0m1787
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King90
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu376
Other Games
Grubby3361
RotterdaM210
mouzStarbuck199
C9.Mang0156
ArmadaUGS98
UpATreeSC75
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick35077
BasetradeTV345
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 42
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Other Games
• imaqtpie895
• Shiphtur336
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 10m
Replay Cast
13h 10m
CrankTV Team League
14h 10m
OSC
16h 10m
Big Brain Bouts
19h 10m
Replay Cast
1d 3h
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Serral vs Bunny
ByuN vs GgMaChine
CranKy Ducklings
1d 13h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 13h
Snow vs Jaedong
YSC vs hero
RSL Revival
2 days
Solar vs Rogue
Maru vs NightMare
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
GSL
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
HSC XXIX
Eternal Conflict S2 E1

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
YSL S3
CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
SCTL 2026 Spring
Heroes Pulsing #3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: W2
ASL Season 22: Wild Card Qualifier
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E3
Eternal Conflict S2 E2
Logitech G Connect 2026
StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.