• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:41
CEST 12:41
KST 19:41
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play0Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8
Community News
[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation05.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)63ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo31Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611
StarCraft 2
General
Is the larve respawn broken? Enough with this crap patch: boring and suck! 5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) Possible bug in the new patch? Map Pool Suggestion For 1v1
Tourneys
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) INu's Battles#17 <BO.9> RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL CK #4 20-21th June
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed
Brood War
General
ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? [BSL22] Non-Korean Championship from 13 to 28 June BSL Season 22 BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL22] GosuLeague Casts - Tue & Thu 22:00 CEST CSLAN 4 is Coming!
Strategy
Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Relatively freeroll strategies Creating a full chart of Zerg builds
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Games for Kids The Perfect Game
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
How To Predict Tilt in Espor…
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 12104 users

Another damn balance idea: MSC and oracle

Blogs > DilemaH
Post a Reply
DilemaH
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Canada402 Posts
November 28 2015 21:30 GMT
#1
TL;DR:
+ Show Spoiler +
Mothership core: Removed
Nexus ability card updated:
Manual shield battery: can restore 4 shields to a friendly unit each second for 1 energy per second
Chrono Boost: changed back to older version (25 energy)
Pylon overcharge: large cast range. For 25 energy, overcharge a pylon. Requires a cybernetics core on the map.
Mass recall: for 100 energy, recall all units in an area to this nexus. Requires a cybernetics core on the map.

Oracle:
Pulsar beam: removed?
Can cast time warp (lotv version)
Time warp requires 150/150 upgrade at the fleet beacon


I'm sure we all know the mothership core and photon overcharge was a pretty blatant bandaid fix to protoss' early game defense. With the new pylon overcharge, playing against protoss and wanting to attack them early on got really frustrating. Playing with an MSC is also very tedious, as you have to constantly babysit this crucial unit which seems to always get itself into trouble and killed. Even top koreans frequently mess up and lose it, despite having played with it for so long. Finally, hero based units, those which you can only have 1 of on the field at a time, have no place in starcraft. My proposition is small, but is the following:

Remove the mothership core and change the ability card of the nexus:
Restore shields: a built-in manual shield battery. For 1 energy per second, restore 4 shields to a target unit
Chrono boost: reverted to it's older version, costing 25 energy
Pylon overcharge: range increased to 9-13~. otherwise, same as MSC variant. Requires a cybernetics core on the map.
Mass recall: Teleport a group of units on the map to this nexus for 75-100 energy. Requires a cybernetics core on the map.

Now you might be wondering: "wait, this doesn't remove the band-aid at all! Protoss still has a bad early game, covered by PO this time on the nexus!" Thats true. But what this change does is make it feel much less like a band-aid and more natural, and it increases strategic depth in the game. Having defensive-utility based abilities on a protoss main structure, at least in my opinion, feels very natural. Plus, players don't have to worry about losing and babysitting their MSC. All of the strategic depth relies on chrono boost costing energy: players will have to decide if they want to chrono boost something to boost their economy, or save up energy for defensive spells. Also, this depth stems further, as players will have to decide which nexi they want to use for chrono boosts. Maybe dumping all energy from 1 nexus is a bad idea since you will be weak to drops, but maybe you really need the energy at your nat and third nexus. Shield battery is just for early game and a niche little ability. In addition, using PO to deny scouting becomes more of an investment as 1 PO = 1 CB. This was very frustrating for players going reapers or losing an early overlord.

One thing I am afraid about with this change is that protoss would not be able to secure additional bases, or doing so would be incredibly hard since photon overcharge would not be available. A small little "fix" could be to have nexi start with 25 energy? But thats not even close to a sufficient buff. If this MSC removal change were to happen, protoss would need to have better, more mobile early defense. I have no idea what that change/those changes would have to be. Maybe making PO have a range of 13 so that you can overcharge some pylons barely on the low ground? But then again, that also feels really band-aidy. Like, protoss' defense is based so much on PO early game that players are fine to throw away a group few adepts for like 3-5 enemy workers. They don't need units: just some band-aid defensive ability and structures. Hence why securing a base would be so hard: no good defensive strcutures to secure it.

Now, onto the oracle. Here is what I believe should be changed:
Remove Pulsar beam?
For 150/150 at the fleet beacon, the oracle can use time warp.

Time warp was moved from the deceased MSC onto the oracle, but must be researched. Pulsar beam kinda ruins the idea of what the oracle is for me: a spiritual successor, earlier tech, and nerazim arbiter. It's a support vessel, not a hit-and-run harass unit. And the thing about the oracle is that its completely meant to catch the enemy off-guard. And if it doesn't, it has decent supporting spells. Low risk, high reward. I believe that if the oracle pulsar beam was removed (or built in to be a very weak basic attack like the arbiter), phoenix play might come back into prominence given the dominance of muta play right now. Ironically, another reason phoenix openings might come back into style is because since its weaker than an oracle opener, it would be scouted for less, giving it more of an element of surprise. I do believe that phoenix play is healthy for the game: instead of oracle harass which is fairly easy to excecute, it takes a good player to constantly be getting the maximum worth out of their phoenixes, and theres a lot of room for creativity with them aswell.

Time warp on the oracle has huge implications. Stargate/Fleet Beacon tech seems to be the end-game goal of all protosses now, with the new powerful carrier and sieging abilities of the tempest. From what I've been seeing in PvP, players want to get to that stalker/disruptor mid-game, and then add on fleet beacon tech lategame for increased sieging powers. Having time warp on the fleet beacon will further increase the potency of this late-game switch. Time warp will shift the positional metagame in not just PvP, but every matchup where the protoss can get to a fleet beacon. It will create "dead-zones" where the enemy will be forced to escape from and give up, allowing more aggressive plays: you can time-warp where the enemy army is, and they would be forced to leave that position before it comes up or get disrupted. It could also be used to deny enemy armies from coming up a ramp, since splitting inside a time warp is much less effective. I think it would be a great addition to the game.

Btw, mark my words, players will begin to split up armies into 2 groups later in the game PvP. The zoning powers of the disruptor are so potent that it could probably zone out an army twice it's size.

*
They don't want you to construct additional pylons
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
November 29 2015 02:42 GMT
#2
The oracle should have some offensive utility -- Protoss has too many units that dont have offensive abilities, leading them to mass whatever firepower options they have. I definitely think that they should tone down the Pulsar Beam, or redesign it.
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
-NegativeZero-
Profile Joined August 2011
United States2142 Posts
November 30 2015 08:30 GMT
#3
but people never use the oracle for army engagements, removing the pulsar beam is hardly a nerf to anything except for early harass.
vibeo gane,
BeStFAN
Profile Blog Joined April 2015
483 Posts
November 30 2015 08:44 GMT
#4
hey great suggestion thanks for posting
❤ BeSt... ༼ つ ◕_◕༽つ #YEAROFKOMA #YEAROFKOMA #YEAROFKOMA ༼ つ ◕_◕༽つ
DilemaH
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Canada402 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 21:48:22
November 30 2015 21:47 GMT
#5
On November 30 2015 17:30 -NegativeZero- wrote:
but people never use the oracle for army engagements, removing the pulsar beam is hardly a nerf to anything except for early harass.


Exactly the point. As I stated earlier, the oracle is meant to be a support vessel with support-based abilities. The problem is that pulsar beam creates a bad dynamic in gameplay and it doesn't fit the unit: its not even a harass-based ability. Its a build-order coinflip based ability. Either its scouted and it does nothing, or it isn't scouted and it basically wins you the game. And if it is scouted its not too bad either: the enemy has to invest into defenses, kinda balancing out the game. This harass role should be for the phoenix: if its scouted, phoenixes can still do good damage in the right hands, but if its not scouted it doesn't do extremely critical game-ending damage. Phoenixes are a bigger investment, have the potential to do more, but rely much more heavily on player skill than the oracle for harass. Which is very important. Phoenixes grant you map control and the ability to harass/scout your opponent constantly, whereas the oracle is really hit or miss with very very little skill cap. From a gameplay perspective, oracle openers are a badly designed coinflip, whereas phoenix openers are, not only an opener, but a playstyle choice. And freedom of expression is pretty nice to have in SC2.

On November 30 2015 17:44 BeStFAN wrote:
hey great suggestion thanks for posting


You can go ahead and give it a rating. Don't be shy . Whoever voted, voted a 1-star and it hurts my ego
They don't want you to construct additional pylons
imgbaby
Profile Blog Joined May 2015
158 Posts
November 30 2015 21:50 GMT
#6
Man, I love balance discussions. Probably the best way to learn this game.
Like a bird on a wire, like a drunk in some midnight choir I have tried in my way to be free
DilemaH
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Canada402 Posts
November 30 2015 21:56 GMT
#7
On December 01 2015 06:50 imgbaby wrote:
Man, I love balance discussions. Probably the best way to learn this game.


Can't tell if this was sarcastic or not. If so, why are you reading blog posts on balance suggestions and not the strategy board?
They don't want you to construct additional pylons
imgbaby
Profile Blog Joined May 2015
158 Posts
November 30 2015 22:28 GMT
#8
On December 01 2015 06:56 DilemaH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2015 06:50 imgbaby wrote:
Man, I love balance discussions. Probably the best way to learn this game.


Can't tell if this was sarcastic or not. If so, why are you reading blog posts on balance suggestions and not the strategy board?

Not sarcasm. I read the strategy boards and balance suggestions too. I just feel like balance threads yield the most information for some reason. Sorry to derail your thread!
Like a bird on a wire, like a drunk in some midnight choir I have tried in my way to be free
DilemaH
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Canada402 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-11-30 22:37:58
November 30 2015 22:34 GMT
#9
On December 01 2015 07:28 imgbaby wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2015 06:56 DilemaH wrote:
On December 01 2015 06:50 imgbaby wrote:
Man, I love balance discussions. Probably the best way to learn this game.


Can't tell if this was sarcastic or not. If so, why are you reading blog posts on balance suggestions and not the strategy board?

Not sarcasm. I read the strategy boards and balance suggestions too. I just feel like balance threads yield the most information for some reason. Sorry to derail your thread!


I see. No worries. I guess its because when we discuss balance changes, we have to discuss 1. the change itself and 2. the implications of said change. We find an...impurity in the current gameplay and try to fix it (or we just add something new to the game to increase depth and quality of games). We also have to look at every matchup where that changed would be noticed and discuss what it would change.

So in this example, I talked about the lameness and staleness of the oracle and MSC, and discuss how it would feel much better if the nexus was loaded with these abilities (and how it would create strategic depth) and how the PvP metagame would change if the oracle had time warp. Its kinda like world history: you look into the past for examples and patterns, you look into the present, and you plan for the future. If that makes sense.
They don't want you to construct additional pylons
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Douyu Cup 2020
05:00
2026 - Day 1
soO vs FanTaSy
TY vs Coffee
Ryung 1097
WardiTV803
CranKy Ducklings257
IndyStarCraft 159
3DClanTV 115
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Ryung 1097
Lowko232
SortOf 178
IndyStarCraft 159
ProTech144
StateSC2 75
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 29511
Sea 1444
Horang2 1374
Hyuk 1113
Soulkey 234
Soma 210
actioN 205
NaDa 201
Zeus 175
Rush 140
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 125
Last 98
Leta 76
Dewaltoss 68
ToSsGirL 62
Hyun 55
Aegong 54
Free 49
Liquid`Ret 46
Movie 34
Sharp 29
sorry 29
Sacsri 20
Snow 15
Bale 14
JYJ 14
Hm[arnc] 13
IntoTheRainbow 9
yabsab 9
Dota 2
XaKoH 236
League of Legends
JimRising 473
Reynor33
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss1116
x6flipin271
Other Games
Liquid`RaSZi708
singsing617
crisheroes240
Mew2King198
Pyrionflax0
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick599
BasetradeTV264
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 6
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP25
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1977
Upcoming Events
OSC
5h 19m
Douyu Cup 2020
18h 19m
Neeb vs Impact
MacSed vs Cyan
Scarlett vs Kelazhur
INnoVation vs Dear
Douyu Cup 2020
1d 18h
Maestros of the Game
2 days
herO vs Classic
Maru vs Serral
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
2 days
Douyu Cup 2020
2 days
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
3 days
Online Event
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV Weekly
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
OSC
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-06-24
WardiTV Spring 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 1
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
SCTL 2026 Spring
Douyu Cup 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
BCC 2026
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
Heroes Pulsing #3
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.