• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:16
CEST 13:16
KST 20:16
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting9[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition32
StarCraft 2
General
Revisiting the game after10 years and wow it's bad The New Patch Killed Mech! Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada herO Talks: Poor Performance at EWC and more... TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) WardiTV Mondays RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET BW General Discussion Question regarding recent ASL Bisu vs Larva game [Interview] Grrrr... 2024
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal B SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Semifinal A
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1453 users

Why I’m against the removal of macro mechanics:

Blogs > MysteryMeat1
Post a Reply
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 03:52:18
September 07 2015 03:43 GMT
#1
So quick background, I haven’t played a game of sc2 in like 2 years but I used to play at a high masters level or something idk, i thought the game was dead. However, I’ve been perusing some threads on TL and they said that blizzard fucked up again and removed simplified macromechanics for each race. Below are the changes and a graph of the macro apm for each race over 10 minutes

Terran:
Auto Mule no energy


Zerg:
Auto injects


Protoss:
We have macro mechanics?



So basically they just decided to buff the shit out of zerg as if they needed more help to begin with. And they made all the races closer to protoss. I don’t have a problem with this as I’m a protoss player, and the reason I played protoss was so I wouldn’t have to deal with macro mechanics. I didn't even have chronoboost hotkeyed cause its a useless ability.

Thinking about it though, I think im just most worried that the other races will get a taste of the joy of playing protoss, and that they’ll simplify mechanics even further so that all they need to do is press f2 + a, while they sit back and bm the other player. If the game reaches this point I don't think I'll ever be able to play because then I'll have to think about which race to play which will just confuse me even further. I chose protoss so I wouldn't have to make choices and just all-in. Kind of how I just bought ff13 for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle.

**
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Noa Greenini
Profile Joined April 2015
265 Posts
September 07 2015 11:31 GMT
#2
"Blablabla, I don't play the game so I have no idea what is happening but, blablabla it all sucks" was all I could read here w/e.
Noa Greenini looks like the superior LR poster - Charoisaur 04/05/2019 (Serral vs Showtime match)
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 13:28:04
September 07 2015 13:26 GMT
#3
The removal of macro mechanics is a pointless thing to do on its own, but if it's followed with mechanics that make macro naturally more difficult or more optimizable, I think it might be one of the best ways in which Blizzard could make SC2 fun to play.

This isn't about fucking balance (FOR ONCE), so don't bring up balance here. For all its faults (and trust me, I see many faults), balance has always been good. If Zerg is OP now because its macro mechanic was the hardest to use, then I'm relatively confident that they'll find a way to balance it by other means.

From my perspective, the removal of macro mechanics is one of the changes that Blizzard can make that just actually MIGHT help to turn the game around. I don't know why you left, but I stopped playing not because of balance, but because the game got boring. I played at high masters for the first few seasons of WoL and by the time HotS came out I was gone and now I've been following the scene from afar.

I think that macro mechanics contributed to that in a huge way, for me and for others. The relationship is relatively indirect though. The macro mechanics on their own don't seem problematic, but they contribute to a fast paced growth of the forces of the players which devalues individual units. In another thread I wrote about how one of the most interesting parts of BW was the early game. In PvT, you'd have like one zealot and 2 range upgraded dragoons harassing the front bunker of the T's expansion while he repaired it. Three units, maybe with a fourth making its way. And the T had to get his one tank. Once his ONE tank came out, the dragoon push was over. Now don't you lose one dragoon at that point, the loss of one dragoon is disastrous!

But in SC2 you're 4 minutes into the game and your economy is booming left and right as you rapidly plunder the fuck out of your minerals because you chrono boost, mule or push out insane numbers of drones. You lose a unit, it doesn't matter all that much because the scope of your economy allows you to compensate and to attenuate the loss.

The early game is dead except for cheese, and simultaneously, someone made a thread that explained how having 3 active bases at the same time is pretty much as much as you'll need in most games. In SCBW, perhaps the coolest thing was battle for map control. Zergs on 8 bases, terrans on 5, insane maginot lines that cut the map in a half and spanned 4 screens. Macro was you couldn't easily adjust to losing a base or a bunch of workers by pumping them out. Macro was hard because every worker cost a few actions to produce and then to send to work. Macro was hard because you could actually spend the resources you gathered off 5+ bases a lot of the time.

All these things contributed, IMO, to make the game more exciting. It made units more important throughout the game, it made workers vastly less disposable, it made expansions more important and it made map control a central resource whenever the players went to the lategame. And I'm not saying that SC2 never has any of these things, they just don't seem as important because the emphasis is less on positioning and more on squeezing out a huge amount of units.

I searched youtube for "Bisu vs. Flash" and picked a random OSL game and took an screenshot of the pixelated minimap at a random point in the lategame.

[image loading]

Look how much shit is going on, and this isn't cherry picked, it's not one of the most dynamic games by any stretch of the imagination. You have Bisu in yellow with an arch around Flash moving armies back and forth around the map while Flash is slowly edging forward to prevent him from playing the attrition game. Games were commonly like this. I've been watching some SC2 lately, and these things happen to a lesser extent and it's pretty cool when it does, but very often you just get two separate blocks bouncing at each other.


I expect if I posted this on a more high-visibility topic I'd be criticized for at least a few things, some of which are fair:

Positioning, map control, expansions, workers, etc. are all important in SC2.
Yes. I personally believe that they're less important.

You're comparing SC2 and BW, you're a purist and an asshole. Comparing games is not admissible in the imaginary world I live in.
Welcome to the real world. People compare things. It doesn't need they want them to be identical, it just means that certain principles are perhaps desirable.

You fundamentally misunderstand X.
Yes maybe I do. And I'm sure you fundamentally misunderstand Y. Let's talk about it maybe?

Making a lot of units is more fun than map control and positioning and having to work hard to get a strong economy.
You're allowed to think so, but I sincerely believe that you're the minority and people are leaving the game because they disagree.

I'm offended because you're harshly criticizing my beloved game that I love as it currently is, especially since we have very different philosophies and I can't imagine that someone would disagree with my preferences and tastes.
Sorry from the bottom of my heart.

You're whining.
Oh!
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10682 Posts
September 07 2015 15:02 GMT
#4
"I haven't played the game in 2 years but used to be Masters level or something, thought the game was dead"

Welp.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10343 Posts
September 07 2015 23:38 GMT
#5
More girl blogs, bro
[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
Epishade
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2267 Posts
September 08 2015 14:25 GMT
#6
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!
Pinhead Larry in the streets, Dirty Dan in the sheets.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12490 Posts
September 08 2015 14:58 GMT
#7
most of the ff games are for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle (heavily used for grinding/ getting through random battles)
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
September 08 2015 19:36 GMT
#8
On September 08 2015 23:25 Epishade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!


Summer vacation + living at the parents = massive dry spell

Though I could blog about the tinder dates I went on. As the number 1 girl blogger on TL...
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #110
SKillous vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings193
IndyStarCraft 174
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 504
IndyStarCraft 174
Railgan 47
MindelVK 8
StarCraft: Brood War
Horang2 3008
Larva 904
Hyuk 858
Hyun 660
Barracks 526
Soma 298
Pusan 286
Mong 278
PianO 264
sSak 257
[ Show more ]
Last 201
firebathero 197
ZerO 185
Mini 165
Stork 164
Light 145
ggaemo 106
sorry 101
Backho 86
Sacsri 46
Sharp 36
Sea.KH 29
sas.Sziky 17
Noble 11
IntoTheRainbow 10
scan(afreeca) 6
JulyZerg 4
Dota 2
Gorgc1360
Pyrionflax218
Fuzer 141
League of Legends
JimRising 267
Counter-Strike
x6flipin358
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor213
Other Games
singsing2250
B2W.Neo395
DeMusliM257
rGuardiaN71
Trikslyr19
ZerO(Twitch)15
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL18408
StarCraft: Brood War
CasterMuse 15
lovetv 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 90
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV924
League of Legends
• Jankos2219
Upcoming Events
Safe House 2
5h 44m
IPSL
7h 44m
Sziky vs Havi
Artosis vs Klauso
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 4h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 23h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Online Event
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.