• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:55
CEST 21:55
KST 04:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17
StarCraft 2
General
Heaven's Balance Suggestions (roast me) Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. Who will win EWC 2025? Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo)
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Corsair Pursuit Micro? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Pro gamer house photos Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 755 users

Why I’m against the removal of macro mechanics:

Blogs > MysteryMeat1
Post a Reply
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 03:52:18
September 07 2015 03:43 GMT
#1
So quick background, I haven’t played a game of sc2 in like 2 years but I used to play at a high masters level or something idk, i thought the game was dead. However, I’ve been perusing some threads on TL and they said that blizzard fucked up again and removed simplified macromechanics for each race. Below are the changes and a graph of the macro apm for each race over 10 minutes

Terran:
Auto Mule no energy


Zerg:
Auto injects


Protoss:
We have macro mechanics?



So basically they just decided to buff the shit out of zerg as if they needed more help to begin with. And they made all the races closer to protoss. I don’t have a problem with this as I’m a protoss player, and the reason I played protoss was so I wouldn’t have to deal with macro mechanics. I didn't even have chronoboost hotkeyed cause its a useless ability.

Thinking about it though, I think im just most worried that the other races will get a taste of the joy of playing protoss, and that they’ll simplify mechanics even further so that all they need to do is press f2 + a, while they sit back and bm the other player. If the game reaches this point I don't think I'll ever be able to play because then I'll have to think about which race to play which will just confuse me even further. I chose protoss so I wouldn't have to make choices and just all-in. Kind of how I just bought ff13 for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle.

**
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Noa Greenini
Profile Joined April 2015
265 Posts
September 07 2015 11:31 GMT
#2
"Blablabla, I don't play the game so I have no idea what is happening but, blablabla it all sucks" was all I could read here w/e.
Noa Greenini looks like the superior LR poster - Charoisaur 04/05/2019 (Serral vs Showtime match)
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 13:28:04
September 07 2015 13:26 GMT
#3
The removal of macro mechanics is a pointless thing to do on its own, but if it's followed with mechanics that make macro naturally more difficult or more optimizable, I think it might be one of the best ways in which Blizzard could make SC2 fun to play.

This isn't about fucking balance (FOR ONCE), so don't bring up balance here. For all its faults (and trust me, I see many faults), balance has always been good. If Zerg is OP now because its macro mechanic was the hardest to use, then I'm relatively confident that they'll find a way to balance it by other means.

From my perspective, the removal of macro mechanics is one of the changes that Blizzard can make that just actually MIGHT help to turn the game around. I don't know why you left, but I stopped playing not because of balance, but because the game got boring. I played at high masters for the first few seasons of WoL and by the time HotS came out I was gone and now I've been following the scene from afar.

I think that macro mechanics contributed to that in a huge way, for me and for others. The relationship is relatively indirect though. The macro mechanics on their own don't seem problematic, but they contribute to a fast paced growth of the forces of the players which devalues individual units. In another thread I wrote about how one of the most interesting parts of BW was the early game. In PvT, you'd have like one zealot and 2 range upgraded dragoons harassing the front bunker of the T's expansion while he repaired it. Three units, maybe with a fourth making its way. And the T had to get his one tank. Once his ONE tank came out, the dragoon push was over. Now don't you lose one dragoon at that point, the loss of one dragoon is disastrous!

But in SC2 you're 4 minutes into the game and your economy is booming left and right as you rapidly plunder the fuck out of your minerals because you chrono boost, mule or push out insane numbers of drones. You lose a unit, it doesn't matter all that much because the scope of your economy allows you to compensate and to attenuate the loss.

The early game is dead except for cheese, and simultaneously, someone made a thread that explained how having 3 active bases at the same time is pretty much as much as you'll need in most games. In SCBW, perhaps the coolest thing was battle for map control. Zergs on 8 bases, terrans on 5, insane maginot lines that cut the map in a half and spanned 4 screens. Macro was you couldn't easily adjust to losing a base or a bunch of workers by pumping them out. Macro was hard because every worker cost a few actions to produce and then to send to work. Macro was hard because you could actually spend the resources you gathered off 5+ bases a lot of the time.

All these things contributed, IMO, to make the game more exciting. It made units more important throughout the game, it made workers vastly less disposable, it made expansions more important and it made map control a central resource whenever the players went to the lategame. And I'm not saying that SC2 never has any of these things, they just don't seem as important because the emphasis is less on positioning and more on squeezing out a huge amount of units.

I searched youtube for "Bisu vs. Flash" and picked a random OSL game and took an screenshot of the pixelated minimap at a random point in the lategame.

[image loading]

Look how much shit is going on, and this isn't cherry picked, it's not one of the most dynamic games by any stretch of the imagination. You have Bisu in yellow with an arch around Flash moving armies back and forth around the map while Flash is slowly edging forward to prevent him from playing the attrition game. Games were commonly like this. I've been watching some SC2 lately, and these things happen to a lesser extent and it's pretty cool when it does, but very often you just get two separate blocks bouncing at each other.


I expect if I posted this on a more high-visibility topic I'd be criticized for at least a few things, some of which are fair:

Positioning, map control, expansions, workers, etc. are all important in SC2.
Yes. I personally believe that they're less important.

You're comparing SC2 and BW, you're a purist and an asshole. Comparing games is not admissible in the imaginary world I live in.
Welcome to the real world. People compare things. It doesn't need they want them to be identical, it just means that certain principles are perhaps desirable.

You fundamentally misunderstand X.
Yes maybe I do. And I'm sure you fundamentally misunderstand Y. Let's talk about it maybe?

Making a lot of units is more fun than map control and positioning and having to work hard to get a strong economy.
You're allowed to think so, but I sincerely believe that you're the minority and people are leaving the game because they disagree.

I'm offended because you're harshly criticizing my beloved game that I love as it currently is, especially since we have very different philosophies and I can't imagine that someone would disagree with my preferences and tastes.
Sorry from the bottom of my heart.

You're whining.
Oh!
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10671 Posts
September 07 2015 15:02 GMT
#4
"I haven't played the game in 2 years but used to be Masters level or something, thought the game was dead"

Welp.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10341 Posts
September 07 2015 23:38 GMT
#5
More girl blogs, bro
[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
Epishade
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2267 Posts
September 08 2015 14:25 GMT
#6
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!
Pinhead Larry in the streets, Dirty Dan in the sheets.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12387 Posts
September 08 2015 14:58 GMT
#7
most of the ff games are for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle (heavily used for grinding/ getting through random battles)
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
September 08 2015 19:36 GMT
#8
On September 08 2015 23:25 Epishade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!


Summer vacation + living at the parents = massive dry spell

Though I could blog about the tinder dates I went on. As the number 1 girl blogger on TL...
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 14h 5m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 279
mcanning 267
Reynor 175
UpATreeSC 165
BRAT_OK 161
Nathanias 81
StarCraft: Brood War
Mini 519
Larva 407
firebathero 281
Free 54
sas.Sziky 50
Shine 7
Dota 2
XaKoH 568
syndereN534
League of Legends
Grubby5248
Counter-Strike
fl0m2029
Stewie2K501
Fnx 301
flusha191
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu575
Other Games
FrodaN3390
Trikslyr67
Sick43
monkeys_forever26
Organizations
StarCraft 2
ComeBackTV 706
Other Games
BasetradeTV22
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 20 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 169
• musti20045 24
• LUISG 1
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• 80smullet 33
• FirePhoenix4
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22564
• WagamamaTV44
League of Legends
• TFBlade1357
Other Games
• imaqtpie1582
• Shiphtur398
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
14h 5m
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Esports World Cup
1d 14h
Esports World Cup
2 days
Esports World Cup
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.