• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 02:12
CET 08:12
KST 16:12
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge1[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA12
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t GM / Master map hacker and general hacking and cheating thread
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Clair Obscur - Expedition 33 Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread EVE Corporation Path of Exile [Game] Osu!
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2171 users

Why I’m against the removal of macro mechanics:

Blogs > MysteryMeat1
Post a Reply
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 03:52:18
September 07 2015 03:43 GMT
#1
So quick background, I haven’t played a game of sc2 in like 2 years but I used to play at a high masters level or something idk, i thought the game was dead. However, I’ve been perusing some threads on TL and they said that blizzard fucked up again and removed simplified macromechanics for each race. Below are the changes and a graph of the macro apm for each race over 10 minutes

Terran:
Auto Mule no energy


Zerg:
Auto injects


Protoss:
We have macro mechanics?



So basically they just decided to buff the shit out of zerg as if they needed more help to begin with. And they made all the races closer to protoss. I don’t have a problem with this as I’m a protoss player, and the reason I played protoss was so I wouldn’t have to deal with macro mechanics. I didn't even have chronoboost hotkeyed cause its a useless ability.

Thinking about it though, I think im just most worried that the other races will get a taste of the joy of playing protoss, and that they’ll simplify mechanics even further so that all they need to do is press f2 + a, while they sit back and bm the other player. If the game reaches this point I don't think I'll ever be able to play because then I'll have to think about which race to play which will just confuse me even further. I chose protoss so I wouldn't have to make choices and just all-in. Kind of how I just bought ff13 for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle.

**
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Noa Greenini
Profile Joined April 2015
265 Posts
September 07 2015 11:31 GMT
#2
"Blablabla, I don't play the game so I have no idea what is happening but, blablabla it all sucks" was all I could read here w/e.
Noa Greenini looks like the superior LR poster - Charoisaur 04/05/2019 (Serral vs Showtime match)
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 13:28:04
September 07 2015 13:26 GMT
#3
The removal of macro mechanics is a pointless thing to do on its own, but if it's followed with mechanics that make macro naturally more difficult or more optimizable, I think it might be one of the best ways in which Blizzard could make SC2 fun to play.

This isn't about fucking balance (FOR ONCE), so don't bring up balance here. For all its faults (and trust me, I see many faults), balance has always been good. If Zerg is OP now because its macro mechanic was the hardest to use, then I'm relatively confident that they'll find a way to balance it by other means.

From my perspective, the removal of macro mechanics is one of the changes that Blizzard can make that just actually MIGHT help to turn the game around. I don't know why you left, but I stopped playing not because of balance, but because the game got boring. I played at high masters for the first few seasons of WoL and by the time HotS came out I was gone and now I've been following the scene from afar.

I think that macro mechanics contributed to that in a huge way, for me and for others. The relationship is relatively indirect though. The macro mechanics on their own don't seem problematic, but they contribute to a fast paced growth of the forces of the players which devalues individual units. In another thread I wrote about how one of the most interesting parts of BW was the early game. In PvT, you'd have like one zealot and 2 range upgraded dragoons harassing the front bunker of the T's expansion while he repaired it. Three units, maybe with a fourth making its way. And the T had to get his one tank. Once his ONE tank came out, the dragoon push was over. Now don't you lose one dragoon at that point, the loss of one dragoon is disastrous!

But in SC2 you're 4 minutes into the game and your economy is booming left and right as you rapidly plunder the fuck out of your minerals because you chrono boost, mule or push out insane numbers of drones. You lose a unit, it doesn't matter all that much because the scope of your economy allows you to compensate and to attenuate the loss.

The early game is dead except for cheese, and simultaneously, someone made a thread that explained how having 3 active bases at the same time is pretty much as much as you'll need in most games. In SCBW, perhaps the coolest thing was battle for map control. Zergs on 8 bases, terrans on 5, insane maginot lines that cut the map in a half and spanned 4 screens. Macro was you couldn't easily adjust to losing a base or a bunch of workers by pumping them out. Macro was hard because every worker cost a few actions to produce and then to send to work. Macro was hard because you could actually spend the resources you gathered off 5+ bases a lot of the time.

All these things contributed, IMO, to make the game more exciting. It made units more important throughout the game, it made workers vastly less disposable, it made expansions more important and it made map control a central resource whenever the players went to the lategame. And I'm not saying that SC2 never has any of these things, they just don't seem as important because the emphasis is less on positioning and more on squeezing out a huge amount of units.

I searched youtube for "Bisu vs. Flash" and picked a random OSL game and took an screenshot of the pixelated minimap at a random point in the lategame.

[image loading]

Look how much shit is going on, and this isn't cherry picked, it's not one of the most dynamic games by any stretch of the imagination. You have Bisu in yellow with an arch around Flash moving armies back and forth around the map while Flash is slowly edging forward to prevent him from playing the attrition game. Games were commonly like this. I've been watching some SC2 lately, and these things happen to a lesser extent and it's pretty cool when it does, but very often you just get two separate blocks bouncing at each other.


I expect if I posted this on a more high-visibility topic I'd be criticized for at least a few things, some of which are fair:

Positioning, map control, expansions, workers, etc. are all important in SC2.
Yes. I personally believe that they're less important.

You're comparing SC2 and BW, you're a purist and an asshole. Comparing games is not admissible in the imaginary world I live in.
Welcome to the real world. People compare things. It doesn't need they want them to be identical, it just means that certain principles are perhaps desirable.

You fundamentally misunderstand X.
Yes maybe I do. And I'm sure you fundamentally misunderstand Y. Let's talk about it maybe?

Making a lot of units is more fun than map control and positioning and having to work hard to get a strong economy.
You're allowed to think so, but I sincerely believe that you're the minority and people are leaving the game because they disagree.

I'm offended because you're harshly criticizing my beloved game that I love as it currently is, especially since we have very different philosophies and I can't imagine that someone would disagree with my preferences and tastes.
Sorry from the bottom of my heart.

You're whining.
Oh!
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10682 Posts
September 07 2015 15:02 GMT
#4
"I haven't played the game in 2 years but used to be Masters level or something, thought the game was dead"

Welp.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10344 Posts
September 07 2015 23:38 GMT
#5
More girl blogs, bro
[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
Epishade
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2267 Posts
September 08 2015 14:25 GMT
#6
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!
Pinhead Larry in the streets, Dirty Dan in the sheets.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12541 Posts
September 08 2015 14:58 GMT
#7
most of the ff games are for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle (heavily used for grinding/ getting through random battles)
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3292 Posts
September 08 2015 19:36 GMT
#8
On September 08 2015 23:25 Epishade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!


Summer vacation + living at the parents = massive dry spell

Though I could blog about the tinder dates I went on. As the number 1 girl blogger on TL...
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 18m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 4233
Sea 2586
Zeus 485
HiyA 61
Hm[arnc] 12
Bale 8
Dota 2
monkeys_forever530
NeuroSwarm118
League of Legends
JimRising 713
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 589
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor42
Other Games
summit1g15729
fl0m514
C9.Mang0395
Trikslyr31
Dewaltoss15
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick862
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 133
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH275
• Adnapsc2 11
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo1698
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
18m
Classic vs MaxPax
SHIN vs Reynor
herO vs Maru
WardiTV Korean Royale
4h 48m
SC Evo League
5h 18m
IPSL
9h 48m
Julia vs Artosis
JDConan vs DragOn
OSC
9h 48m
BSL 21
12h 48m
TerrOr vs Aeternum
HBO vs Kyrie
RSL Revival
1d
Wardi Open
1d 6h
IPSL
1d 12h
StRyKeR vs OldBoy
Sziky vs Tarson
BSL 21
1d 12h
StRyKeR vs Artosis
OyAji vs KameZerg
[ Show More ]
OSC
1d 15h
OSC
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
OSC
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
LAN Event
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-16
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.