• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:25
CEST 23:25
KST 06:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles7[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China10Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL73
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Server Blocker RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL BW General Discussion A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone Script to open stream directly using middle click ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
2025 ACS Season 2 Qualifier [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 Last Minute Live-Report Thread Resource!
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5 Nintendo Switch Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Accidental Video Game Porn Archive Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 653 users

Why I’m against the removal of macro mechanics:

Blogs > MysteryMeat1
Post a Reply
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3291 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 03:52:18
September 07 2015 03:43 GMT
#1
So quick background, I haven’t played a game of sc2 in like 2 years but I used to play at a high masters level or something idk, i thought the game was dead. However, I’ve been perusing some threads on TL and they said that blizzard fucked up again and removed simplified macromechanics for each race. Below are the changes and a graph of the macro apm for each race over 10 minutes

Terran:
Auto Mule no energy


Zerg:
Auto injects


Protoss:
We have macro mechanics?



So basically they just decided to buff the shit out of zerg as if they needed more help to begin with. And they made all the races closer to protoss. I don’t have a problem with this as I’m a protoss player, and the reason I played protoss was so I wouldn’t have to deal with macro mechanics. I didn't even have chronoboost hotkeyed cause its a useless ability.

Thinking about it though, I think im just most worried that the other races will get a taste of the joy of playing protoss, and that they’ll simplify mechanics even further so that all they need to do is press f2 + a, while they sit back and bm the other player. If the game reaches this point I don't think I'll ever be able to play because then I'll have to think about which race to play which will just confuse me even further. I chose protoss so I wouldn't have to make choices and just all-in. Kind of how I just bought ff13 for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle.

**
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Noa Greenini
Profile Joined April 2015
265 Posts
September 07 2015 11:31 GMT
#2
"Blablabla, I don't play the game so I have no idea what is happening but, blablabla it all sucks" was all I could read here w/e.
Noa Greenini looks like the superior LR poster - Charoisaur 04/05/2019 (Serral vs Showtime match)
Djzapz
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada10681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-07 13:28:04
September 07 2015 13:26 GMT
#3
The removal of macro mechanics is a pointless thing to do on its own, but if it's followed with mechanics that make macro naturally more difficult or more optimizable, I think it might be one of the best ways in which Blizzard could make SC2 fun to play.

This isn't about fucking balance (FOR ONCE), so don't bring up balance here. For all its faults (and trust me, I see many faults), balance has always been good. If Zerg is OP now because its macro mechanic was the hardest to use, then I'm relatively confident that they'll find a way to balance it by other means.

From my perspective, the removal of macro mechanics is one of the changes that Blizzard can make that just actually MIGHT help to turn the game around. I don't know why you left, but I stopped playing not because of balance, but because the game got boring. I played at high masters for the first few seasons of WoL and by the time HotS came out I was gone and now I've been following the scene from afar.

I think that macro mechanics contributed to that in a huge way, for me and for others. The relationship is relatively indirect though. The macro mechanics on their own don't seem problematic, but they contribute to a fast paced growth of the forces of the players which devalues individual units. In another thread I wrote about how one of the most interesting parts of BW was the early game. In PvT, you'd have like one zealot and 2 range upgraded dragoons harassing the front bunker of the T's expansion while he repaired it. Three units, maybe with a fourth making its way. And the T had to get his one tank. Once his ONE tank came out, the dragoon push was over. Now don't you lose one dragoon at that point, the loss of one dragoon is disastrous!

But in SC2 you're 4 minutes into the game and your economy is booming left and right as you rapidly plunder the fuck out of your minerals because you chrono boost, mule or push out insane numbers of drones. You lose a unit, it doesn't matter all that much because the scope of your economy allows you to compensate and to attenuate the loss.

The early game is dead except for cheese, and simultaneously, someone made a thread that explained how having 3 active bases at the same time is pretty much as much as you'll need in most games. In SCBW, perhaps the coolest thing was battle for map control. Zergs on 8 bases, terrans on 5, insane maginot lines that cut the map in a half and spanned 4 screens. Macro was you couldn't easily adjust to losing a base or a bunch of workers by pumping them out. Macro was hard because every worker cost a few actions to produce and then to send to work. Macro was hard because you could actually spend the resources you gathered off 5+ bases a lot of the time.

All these things contributed, IMO, to make the game more exciting. It made units more important throughout the game, it made workers vastly less disposable, it made expansions more important and it made map control a central resource whenever the players went to the lategame. And I'm not saying that SC2 never has any of these things, they just don't seem as important because the emphasis is less on positioning and more on squeezing out a huge amount of units.

I searched youtube for "Bisu vs. Flash" and picked a random OSL game and took an screenshot of the pixelated minimap at a random point in the lategame.

[image loading]

Look how much shit is going on, and this isn't cherry picked, it's not one of the most dynamic games by any stretch of the imagination. You have Bisu in yellow with an arch around Flash moving armies back and forth around the map while Flash is slowly edging forward to prevent him from playing the attrition game. Games were commonly like this. I've been watching some SC2 lately, and these things happen to a lesser extent and it's pretty cool when it does, but very often you just get two separate blocks bouncing at each other.


I expect if I posted this on a more high-visibility topic I'd be criticized for at least a few things, some of which are fair:

Positioning, map control, expansions, workers, etc. are all important in SC2.
Yes. I personally believe that they're less important.

You're comparing SC2 and BW, you're a purist and an asshole. Comparing games is not admissible in the imaginary world I live in.
Welcome to the real world. People compare things. It doesn't need they want them to be identical, it just means that certain principles are perhaps desirable.

You fundamentally misunderstand X.
Yes maybe I do. And I'm sure you fundamentally misunderstand Y. Let's talk about it maybe?

Making a lot of units is more fun than map control and positioning and having to work hard to get a strong economy.
You're allowed to think so, but I sincerely believe that you're the minority and people are leaving the game because they disagree.

I'm offended because you're harshly criticizing my beloved game that I love as it currently is, especially since we have very different philosophies and I can't imagine that someone would disagree with my preferences and tastes.
Sorry from the bottom of my heart.

You're whining.
Oh!
"My incompetence with power tools had been increasing exponentially over the course of 20 years spent inhaling experimental oven cleaners"
TelecoM
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States10670 Posts
September 07 2015 15:02 GMT
#4
"I haven't played the game in 2 years but used to be Masters level or something, thought the game was dead"

Welp.
AKA: TelecoM[WHITE] Protoss fighting
MountainDewJunkie
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States10341 Posts
September 07 2015 23:38 GMT
#5
More girl blogs, bro
[21:07] <Shock710> whats wrong with her face [20:50] <dAPhREAk> i beat it the day after it came out | <BLinD-RawR> esports is a giant vagina
Epishade
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States2267 Posts
September 08 2015 14:25 GMT
#6
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!
Pinhead Larry in the streets, Dirty Dan in the sheets.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12385 Posts
September 08 2015 14:58 GMT
#7
most of the ff games are for the cut scenes, linear story, and auto battle (heavily used for grinding/ getting through random battles)
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
MysteryMeat1
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States3291 Posts
September 08 2015 19:36 GMT
#8
On September 08 2015 23:25 Epishade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2015 08:38 MountainDewJunkie wrote:
More girl blogs, bro

We want more girl blogs!


Summer vacation + living at the parents = massive dry spell

Though I could blog about the tinder dates I went on. As the number 1 girl blogger on TL...
"Cause ya know, Style before victory." -The greatest mafia player alive
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
DaveTesta Events
18:00
Kirktown Ready Room #3
davetesta111
Liquipedia
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
18:00
RO8 Round Robin Group - Day 1
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
ZZZero.O364
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SpeCial 176
Livibee 53
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 364
HiyA 84
Dota 2
syndereN358
monkeys_forever282
Pyrionflax129
League of Legends
Grubby4751
Dendi1201
Counter-Strike
fl0m1933
Stewie2K986
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor420
Trikslyr64
Other Games
summit1g6627
mouzStarbuck303
ToD152
ViBE114
Sick53
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick54636
StarCraft 2
angryscii 38
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 21 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 220
• printf 49
• musti20045 22
• tFFMrPink 18
• OhrlRock 1
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21678
League of Legends
• Doublelift4135
• Jankos2609
Other Games
• imaqtpie2363
• Shiphtur463
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
12h 36m
RSL Revival
12h 36m
Classic vs Clem
FEL
17h 36m
Elazer vs Spirit
Gerald vs MaNa
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
20h 36m
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Wardi Open
1d 13h
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
PiGosaur Monday
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
[ Show More ]
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
HSC XXVII
NC Random Cup

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.