• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 11:11
CEST 17:11
KST 00:11
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview25Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL46Code S RO12 Preview: Cure, Zoun, Solar, Creator4[ASL19] Finals Preview: Daunting Task30
Community News
[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates7GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th12Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0EWC 2025 Regional Qualifier Results26Code S RO12 Results + RO8 Groups (2025 Season 2)3
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Magnus Carlsen and Fabi review Clem's chess game. BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th
Tourneys
Bellum Gens Elite: Stara Zagora 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Cheeseadelphia 2025 - Open Bracket LAN!
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance Mutation # 473 Cold is the Void
Brood War
General
Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans? BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion I made an ASL quiz [BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 2 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 1
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread What do you want from future RTS games? Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
LiquidLegends to reintegrate into TL.net
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0 Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Cleaning My Mechanical Keyboard
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Cognitive styles x game perf…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Poker
Nebuchad
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 25390 users

State of SC2 - Historical PoV on Matchup Design

Blogs > stuchiu
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-01 20:09:06
September 01 2015 15:38 GMT
#1
State of SC2 - A Historical Perspective on Matchup Design.

Starcraft 2 has had 5 years of history. In that time we’ve had numerous patches, 2 expansions, hundreds of players and 196 Premier tournaments, and countless major, minor, local and online events and show matches. In that time we’ve had 5 years of data from all levels of competition from players of numerous styles.

So why does any of this matter? I believe that going forward from HotS to LotV, a historical perspective is needed to see from a design perspective on what went right, what went wrong and to extrapolate what we consider to be the core experience of the matchups and keep them or improve upon them while expanding the game. This sentiment was mirrored here:

Something we touched on previously is that we strive to locate and improve specific parts of the game that aren’t working well without taking away from the good parts. We understand that it’s tempting sometimes to just make extreme statements that only look at a part of a system, but what makes the process of improving StarCraft II difficult is trying to look at a system from all possible angles. Our goal isn’t to scrap main systems in the game or to throw away fun elements just because there’s a possible alternative path.
July 22 Community Feedback

In the end, SC2 is a game of the individual. It is up to the player to find their own path to victory and through that path show the self they wish to be.

As for what the design goals, I can only guess as Blizzard has never expressly said what type of game they want LotV to be. For now here are a list of qualities that are generally desired:

Macromanagement
Unit control
Small scale skirmishes
Multi-pronged harassment
Strategical/tactical positioning of armies
Strategic/tactical positioning based on economics
Constant action
Varied Compositions
Varied build orders and mindgames

As for unwanted qualities, these were:
Overpowered Strategies or Compositions (BL/infestor era was an era where it was never a bad decision to make an infestor. Blink Era was an era where it was never a bad decsion to do a “Blink All-in”.)
Easily acquired deathballs (When a composition is too easy to get to and is the ultimate army composition. - Collosus/Void Ray vs Z in early 2011, BL/infestor, Mech deathballs now)
Static defensive play forced by deathballs (On the rare occasions where bl/infestor had to play vs mass air Protoss strats/mass air mech strats or SH 40 spore 5 viper vs Tempests/mothership)
One spell engagements - When one spell decides the game (Blackhole and mass fungals)

First I will list the eras that we need to avoid. In particular there were 4 eras that the community generally hated. They were:

GomTvT - Terran was the closest to its BW equivalent, maps were in favor of 1 base builds, ppl didnt know how to scout or if they did, what it meant, and both Protoss/Zerg were effectively weaker back then (post 1 army 2 armor roach nerfs). The underlying reasons for why this era of dominance happened are the least likely to repeat (though Protoss seems to be the most changed from their meta styles going from HotS to LotV).

BL/infestor - Zerg hit a strategic dead end. Once they got to lair and 3 bases, there was no more decision making to be made. The answer was always to make more infestors. The ZvT, ZvP matchups ended the same way. Either Terran or Protoss busted Zerg before they got to a deathball (effectively putting the game on a timer) or Zerg won. Certainty in the lategame ironically opened up variation in Zerg opening builds, as the need for greedy economic play from opponents made certain 2 base strategies (2 base muta, 2 base infestor, fast nydus worm, early speedling timing, etc.) deadly; by my count there can be somewhere between 10-15 ways to reach victory. All of this was heaven for Zerg players, but a false panacea for viewers. But when it was the BL/infestor era there was just 1 for either side (2 if you count the Soul Train as separate from 3 base all-ins).

Blink Era - In many ways this was similar to BL/infestor in PvT. The reason I say that is because it pigeonholed Terran into 1 build. They only had 1 build they could use that would not die outright (but did still die fairly often) to Blink stalker pressure, illing all other build orders or strategies. It forced the matchup onto one railroad that was driven by one player (the Protoss player). There was no back and forth, just Protoss either winning, or getting so far ahead they just won later anyway, or in the rare cases of getting behind (like Arthur vs Bomber) they could just all-in harder and win anyway.

Swarm Hosts - This was the most balanced of the 4 eras (in the sense that it didn’t let any race dominate every tournament, arguably it barely did that well in terms of tournament wins - the only Zerg that did well during this time was soO and he only used muta/corruptor and roachy/hydra builds), but was also incredibly stale from a viewers perspective. It stalled out games interminably. I believe the idea was that the SH would be used as a multitasking harass unit (like what Soulkey/Revival did in early HotS), but it was found to be most effective as a slow turtling unit. Some expected it to force Protoss/Terran users to be more aggressive on the map and try to out maneuver the SH, but instead forced both races to turtle even harder creating a WW1 maginot Line that was similar to the bl/infestor vs Mothership archon toilet standoff. Neither can go forward, neither can go back, the games were won off of one side slowly chipping at the other. Boring to watch, excruciating to play.

Matchups

Matchups need to be designed with three things to keep in mind: A similar chance for either player to win the game given equivalent skill levels, enjoyment of the match for spectators, allowance for multiple types of play styles with no strategical dead end i.e. where the answer is the same no matter what you play against (BL/infestor, Blink era, SCV Pulls).

ZvZ

History: ZvZ started as ling/bling wars for three reasons: lack of knowledge of the game, 3 range queens and small maps. Once those things were figured out (and Queen got the range buff) it became a 50/50 between either going mutas or roaches, but it eventually settled on roaches after the infestor buff. Then it went into mass muta vs muta because of the increased regen mutas and nerfed infestors. This style was nerfed by the buff to spores effectively reverting the meta to Roach vs Roach and the Roach triangle (Roach/hydra > Roach/infestor > Roach/Bane > Roach/hydra).

This is currently the most problematic matchup (for entertainment). Yes it requires skill, mind-games, and is a good mix of mechanics/strategy/army/economics. However from a spectators point of view, it is by far the most stale of the 7 matchups possible. It almost always ends up being Roach Wars.

There are three circumstances under which ZvZ becomes a great matchup to watch: Ling/bling wars (Nestea vs DRG, DRG vs Effort, Life vs Leenock), Roach vs Muta (ByuL vs Revival, Curious vs Rogue, DIMAGA vs Soulkey) or two extremely strong players can play Roach vs Roach (Life vs Leenock MLG Finals, Hyun vs Sniper GSL Finals). The third cannot be replicated very often, so we can ignore that. So to make ZvZ a good matchup to watch they either need to find a way to revert all ZvZs into ling/bling wars or make asymmetrical strategies.

ZvT

History: ZvT started as muta/ling/bling vs 2 base (and later 3 base given increased skill/better maps) Bio/Tank. Eventually it became either ling/infestor or roach/infestor. Mech was introduced as a main stream style with Mvp’s hellion/banshee. HotS went into the MMMM parade push (briefly went into Hellbat/thor styles from Taeja and later on Flash/TY), some mech into bio and some turtle mech (lillekanin, Reality). But mostly the MMMM style has defined TvZ in HotS.

TvZ has been the most loved matchup in SC2. It is highly mechanical, action packed, very asymmetrical and filled with a lot of varied builds on both sides. 2011 ZvT, 2012 ZvT 2013+ ZvT all have positives and negatives.

2011 was the most imbalanced for Terran, but it was also the Apex of Bio/Tank styles which create a completely different type of rhythm than current BioMine games. The sieging, unsieging, positioning and tactical game was probably the most complex. (MKP vs Kyrix, Mvp vs idra, idra vs Bomber, Clide vs Leenock, sC vs Nestea, Nestea vs TOP, DRG vs MMA, MMA vs Losira)

2012 can be split into two eras. Before bl/infestor became big and afterwards. The period where BL/infestor wasnt the meta defining strategy was short. Here were the games that defined that era (Supernova vs DRG, Leenock vs Jjakji, Leenock vs Mvp, MKP vs DRG). BL/infestor was the most imbalanced for Zerg. Mechanics mattered the least during this era and only made an impact when talking about the best mechanical players of that time (Innovation’s first GSL run). Despite being imbalanced, it forced Terran players to play the most strategical/tactical TvZ games of SC2 history to make a win happen. (Mvp vs Life, Mvp vs IEM Cologne, Polt vs DRG, Ryung vs DRG, Hack vs Roro, Leenock vs Bomber, Gumiho vs Losira, Polt vs Stephano)
2013 onward is the most mechanically oriented of the time periods and is often decided by the macro/micro of the individual players. (Inno vs DRG, Inno vs Curious, Inno vs Soulkey, Supernova vs Soulkey, TRUE vs Fantasy, Dream vs Life both series, Life vs Maru, other significant games were Taeja vs Z games, but due to his stylsitic tendencies they do not play like the standard MMMM styles at all).

The current era of ZvT games have been reverting to mech play with the nerf of the swarmhost. And while I disagree with mech being unbeatable, it is still the most favored composition with the least interesting qualities to watch as a viewer. It is mostly based on defensive play, getting to the deathball off 3-4 base, and then pushing out. There is counter play on both sides, but it is generally decided by who wins the decisive fight.

Bio on the other hand has two interesting and contrasting eras. First is the era from 2011-early2012. This era had the least diversity, but it also had harassment, constant engagements, strategical and tactical positions in regards to terrain, armies and expansions. The other era for Bio compositions was 2013-2015 where it has mostly been focused on parade pushing and ending the Zerg. It it much less meaningful strategically and positionally, but it generally had more action.

ZvP

History: It started as 3 gate builds vs ling/roach all-ins. Later on due to maps and knowledge, FFE became the norm as Protoss learned to stop ling/roch all-ins (This is a continuing problem for Protoss in all 3 matchups. Every matchup for them is constrained by build orders). Eventually Stalker/sentry became a problem once it became codified as a 2-3 base build. Stephano solved it with 3 base hatch max roach builds. Eventually that was beaten by 2 base stalker into immortal and then a 3rd nexus. Which was then solved again by Stephano using infestors, which created the BL/infestor meta. 2013 HotS ZvP was varied because no one knew what the ideal strategy was. It was a mash of 2012 PvZ builds and sOs builds while Zerg tried muta/corruptor, roach/hydra/viper and a smattering of some SH builds. Later on stalker/sentry eventually found its way back, but could not beat SH which led to end game Air-Toss vs SH. After SH was nerfed, stalker/sentry reigned supreme. Currently Zergs are using econ risks, early pools, proxy hatches and gold base builds to get wins. Also using roach/hydra viper into BL/corruptor or some variation of ling/infestor/ultra into BL/corruptor.

ZvP has the problem of being defined as either one side or the other having a unit comp that is too strong for the opposing side to fight head on. I won’t comment on the current era of ZvP as Zerg players are generally using a diverse array of strategies and all-ins to win the matchup.

2011 ZvP (Nestea/Losira vs anyone)
2012 ZvP (Any Stephano game. Hero vs Annyeong, Hero vs Leenock, Stephano vs Kiwikaki, Grubby vs Slivko)
2013 ZvP (Soulkey vs Rain, Parting vs Roro, Parting vs Soulkey, HerO vs Hyun, Snute vs anyone, Hero vs Jaedong, Dear vs Soulkey)
2014 ZvP (Snute vs herO, Snute vs Protoss, soO vs Zest)
2015 ZvP (Snute vs Rain, Snute vs Classic, Rogue/ByuL/Curious vs anyone)

PvP

History: In 2011 it was 4 gate into the RPS version (Robo beats stalker beats stargate beats Robo, DT beats everything but Robo), until Rain’s era. Rain perfected Collosus/immortal PvP off 3 base. HotS 2013 was chargelot archon vs chargelot archon until the oracle nerfed which made it unstable until Zest. Currently it's a combination of mindgames, army compositions and trying to do small amounts of harass throughout the game to eventually win the deathball battle. 2010-2011 was defined by build orders. specifically what can you get away with without dieing to 4 gate.

This matchup is fine as is. The most important things to avoid here is the 4 gate era, where one strategy defined the entirety of the matchup or the possible increase of too many viable openings that could increase the variability of openings.

2011 (Inca vs MC, MC vs Huk, Naniwa vs MC)
2012 (Rain vs Parting vs Creator vs HerO vs Squirtle, Genius vs MC)
2013+ (Rain vs Parting vs Zest vs Classic vs sOs vs herO vs Stats)

TvP:

From 2011-2012, the defining build in PvT was the 1-1-1 and all P builds were created knowing that that could kill them at any time so every build must by necessity have a solution to that (MC vs Thorzain, HerO vs Puma, MC vs Puma came to define all of 2011). Afterwards it was the optimized medivac timings (MKP style) that came to define the matchup. Jjakji vs Parting was a landmark series for introducing viable 2 base storm. Then the matchup was split into three things: SCV pulls (Mvp vs Parting, Mvp vs Rain), collosus first games and storm first games. HotS TvP was formed mostly by Hellbat drops, mine drops and then the blink era. Blink stalkers could transition into either collosus or storm based mid games. After the nerf to blink era/buffs to widow mines, Maru continued to refine the MMMM style he had usedsince the end of 2013 and it became the standard TvP. This killed the storm-opening games, and revived some phoenix openers, but mostly blink stalkers on defense and some tech (Oracle/DT/Warp Prism) into collosus three base.

In terms of pure enjoyment TvP reached its apex in 2012 (barring the SCV pull): Both sides had aggressive openings, back and forth games, active mid-game, stable late games. (Baring the SCV pulls Mvp created). It created games that required mechanics, strategy, build orders, tactics, economic expansion, generally all the qualities fans wanted in a matchup. (Dream vs Rain, Dream vs Parting, Jjakji vs Parting, Parting vs MKP, Rain vs Taeja, Mvp vs Rain, Jjakji vs Trap, Taeja vs Rain).

*There were two odd small periods that go unaccounted for. Maru vs Dear TvP era at the end of 2013 and Taeja 2014 games as Taeja once again does not play like anyone else from that time period.

TvT

WoL TvT nearing the end of 2011 to the end of 2013 was arguably the best matchup in SC2. It had Asymmetrical matchups that people liked (Bio vs Mech, Bio vs Bio, Mech vs Mech), could be played on 1, 2, 3 bases all the way to split map scenarios. Allowed for all victory conditions to be possible. Made things like strategy, positional, economics and tactics just as important as the army composition and supply size. It allowed for preparation and counter builds without the complete instability of later HotS TvT.

What eventually changed it was three things. First was the increased skill of Terran players in using mines and medivacs. Secondly it was the medivac boost. This unit gave a disproportionate advantage to the aggressor in the matchup making games end very quickly, whereas before doing a drop came with significant risk. With boost there is no risk so long as you are paying attention to the drop at hand. Finally it gave too much power to Doom Drops. Strategy, positioning, economics, tactics all took a back seat to doom drops as doom drops directly threatened the infrastructure of an enemy Terran base and could instantly win the game. Ghosts and nuke player were used with some regularity in WoL TvTs but have since disappeared in HotS TvT because all harassment situations can be solved by a doom drop (whereas before you needed a nuke to take out turrets, now you just need more medivacs to fly by).

2011 (TOP vs Polt, MMA vs Mvp, Byun vs Bomber, Bomber vs Mvp, Jinro vs Ensnare, Mvp vs Puma
2012-2013 (Ryung vs Polt, Polt vs Taeja, Taeja vs Ryung, Mvp vs MMA, Flash vs Ryung, MMA vs Gumiho, Supernova vs Mvp, Supernova vs MMA, Inno vs Taeja, Inno vs Mvp)
2014 (Polt vs Bomber, Bomber vs MMA, Maru vs anyone)

Conclusion

From the different eras of SC2, I’d argue the most interesting matchups were 2011-2012 ZvT, 2013-2015 Bio TvZ, 2012-2013 TvT, 2012, TvP, Post Rain PvP (When he came in to solve the matchup). ZvZ and ZvP have been the most problematic and have generally been the most interesting when there was no clear defined ultimate answer on either side as to the ultimate army composition. These were the matchups and the eras that generally exemplified the qualities I outlined above and should be things we should keep in mind when considering new units, maps, design, balance and economic models when looking at LotV.


****
Moderator
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
September 01 2015 15:51 GMT
#2
You forgot to add my suggestion about the storm-only era in 2013. Despite the obvious blink imbalances, the macro games off blink/storm builds were really cool (HerO vs Polt, HerO vs Taeja that TL strat covered for example). Im offended!
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15911 Posts
September 01 2015 16:30 GMT
#3
The current era of ZvT games have been reverting to mech play with the nerf of the swarmhost. And while I disagree with mech being unbeatable, it is still the most favored composition with the least interesting qualities to watch as a viewer. It is mostly based on defensive play, getting to the deathball off 3-4 base, and then pushing out. There is counter play on both sides, but it is generally decided by who wins the decisive fight.

I agree that current mech tvz games are a little bit boring but mech in general doesn't have to be boring.
the #1 game on the best games list of 2012, 2013 and 2014 all featured one player playing mech.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
OdinnTV
Profile Joined January 2014
Canada14 Posts
September 01 2015 17:51 GMT
#4
There's a typo in the dates in the conclusion - I don't think we know much about Bio TvZ in the year 2915 right now.

Interesting read. Not sure it accounts for all of the variables (map influences) or some of the design decisions that moved major unit reworks in HotS (muta speed creating airspace zoning in ZvX matchups), but it's all good information and very informative.
RPR_Tempest
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Australia7798 Posts
September 01 2015 18:42 GMT
#5
2011 TvZ was always my absolute favourite to watch.
Soundwave, Zerg player from Canberra, Australia. @SoundwaveSC
DooMDash
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1015 Posts
September 01 2015 20:05 GMT
#6
Marine Tank Medivac days absolute best as far as viewing goes. It's also really fun to play as Terran, but super difficult because of the banes. I play 100% mech since HotS came out, but I feel like Zerg is just too strong to play a bio/tank/medivac style which you kind of alluded to.
S1 3500+ Master T. S2 1600+ Master T.
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-01 20:13:22
September 01 2015 20:11 GMT
#7
Kinda ironic to label current ZvZ as roach vs roach since mutas are having a resurgence in Korea and muta mirrors (soO vs Leenock, Life vs Curious, Curious vs Rogue, BBoongBBoong vs Leenock on top of my ahead) are very common, muta vs non muta a bit less but it happens (TRUE vs Solar, Zanster vs soO, Firecake vs Hyun, soO vs Rogue), some games recently in Korea that opened as muta mirrors but 1 player quickly transitioned into infestor awkwardness when at disadvantage [Leenock vs Armani, soO vs Rogue])

I actually think modern ZvZ is very meta-oriented, there's A LOT OF viable builds (2 base roach, 3 base roach, muta openings with transitions into roaches or roaches+tech or hive or just roaches with a ton of mutas, +1 melee openings, +1 carapace openings, 1/1 lings etc.). A lot of that is purely stylistic (soO or Leenock will always try to force the game go into muta wars while HyuN relies on roach builds mostly).
A lot of also depends on the map which I think shows that the matchup is actually more complex than the broad public gets to see.

I disagree with Blizzard's sentiment to make the game fun to watch and less fun to play as well but that's for a different discussion.


just my 2 cents
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
logikly
Profile Joined February 2009
United States329 Posts
September 01 2015 21:37 GMT
#8
Pvz is an awful match and in lotv beta(yes i know it is beta) it is even worse. Pvz has now turned into either +attack blink all in on 2nd base or start a 3rd and all in or just lose. Evidence to support this claim can be seen in pro level matches. Rarely, i mean rarely does templar//collosis come into play.
함은정,류화영,남규리
Apoteosis
Profile Joined June 2011
Chile820 Posts
September 02 2015 00:26 GMT
#9
I think that ppl dislike zvz because of the BL/Festor era. Back in the day everyone hated zerg... Code Z and the like. ZvZ was a good matchup before winfestors/BL, it was just ppl got sick of the matchup.

Anyways, nice review
Life won like 200k and didn't hire a proper criminal lawyer.
Thaniri
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
1264 Posts
September 02 2015 04:12 GMT
#10
I'm sure this sentiment will be said often but, like stated above, terrans using marine/tank/medivac was far and away the best time for SC2.

The relationship between marines defending tanks from getting snuck up on, and tanks defending marines during large engagements opened up the game to insanely mechanically challenging tactics involving picking off tanks in both TvT and TvZ.

I'd be all for the removal of the mine, even though it is more difficult to set them up from a mechanical standpoint, the problem is that they are units that punish mistakes as opposed to force certain conditions such as contains or immediate engagements.

For example in TvZ, even a master level zerg on NA is able to split off zerglings/banelings in small numbers and lead their army with them to tank the widow mine shots that are controlled only by AI. Terrans can quickly unburrow the mines and reburrow them if this happens, but this often leads to the mines simply being killed by mutalisks. If the widow mines are kept burrowed, they have the potential to do more damage to the terran player than to the zerg.

Contains with widow mines are indirect pressure, as opposed to direct. A widow mine contain isn't doing constant damage to zerg other than preventing creep spread, whereas tank contains can shell at the zerg army/base to force things to happen on the map. This was important in the past as terran was always the one to need to pressure zerg.

It is much more interesting to have siege tanks that can force fights, but on the flip side are much easier to pick off than widow mines. Siege tanks being slower units as well adds a lot of decision making to both players from how they are positioned relative to the rest of the army and also army movement in general against faster compositions.

This positional thinking carries over to TvT with the same composition of marine/tank/medivac, but as well with vikings because siege tanks shoot farther than they can see. HoTS missed a great opportunity to have this composition in TvZ with vipers targeting siege tanks and vikings defending the tanks from them.

This art was also largely lost in TvT with medivac boost and hellbats. The hellbat drop era is self explanatory, but the medivac boost devolved some matches to being decided within the first 7-9 minutes. Even in the past, gas first builds were common, but they rarely ended the game or resulted in decisive advantages. Now gas first/reaper into 1-1-1 have been the most common builds for a long time and are decidedly the best because of their kill potential. There isn't as much transitioning to interesting midgames in TvT these days. And turtle mech is rarely interesting.

If you read nothing else of my post. Please remember than range 5 queens were the worst thing to ever happen to sc2.
LoneYoShi
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
France1348 Posts
September 02 2015 09:02 GMT
#11
Nice article, although quite wall-of-text-y. Could you consider adding some formatting to make it easier to read ?

On topic: you made me completely nostalgic of good old marine tank mirrors with no doom drop bullshit. Man, those were good days, very good days indeed.
Pursuit_
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-02 09:33:20
September 02 2015 09:21 GMT
#12
Late 2013 / early 2014 TvP was by far the most interesting period of TvP for me, despite being undeniably imbalanced in favor of P. I honestly feel like the Widow Mine buff vP was one of the worst decisions blizz could have made, like I said when it was first suggested, it might balance winrates but in the worst possible way (forcing collosi based games). It would have been enough to just increase the risk factor on blink and fix Photon Overcharge so Protoss couldn't use all their toys relatively risk free.

edit: Also makes me a bit sad thinking about when I was struggling between the decision to Main Terran or Zerg around 2012. I actually preferred playing ZvT to TvZ and ZvP to TvP, but what made me finally decide to main Terran was TvT being infinitely better than ZvZ. All the T matchups are much less fun to play compared to back then.
In Somnis Veritas
CptMarvel
Profile Joined May 2014
France236 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-02 11:52:21
September 02 2015 11:43 GMT
#13
"a WW1 maginot Line"
Huh? Seriously? :-P

And TvT has IMO (even in HotS) always been the most enjoyable match-up. Simply cause Terran is, in SC2, the most well-designed and skill-demanding race of the three.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11340 Posts
September 02 2015 16:22 GMT
#14
The Maginot Line they wished they had for WW1?
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
September 02 2015 19:09 GMT
#15
Haven't read yet and I don't know if I agree with the analysis but this type of thinking is strongly needed and I hope there's still time for anyone hearing it to do something.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
fenrysk
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States364 Posts
September 03 2015 02:11 GMT
#16
Man, I miss the 2011-2012 broadcasts. It wasn't necessarily a happier time in my personal life, but man did I have a lot of time to watch SC2 back then. MVP's stunning games in 2011 and his insane tears thereafter. Taeja too.
http://fenrysk-art.deviantart.com
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13972 Posts
September 03 2015 03:48 GMT
#17
This reminds me of life v leenock mlg finals. What an amazing series
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
insitelol
Profile Joined August 2012
845 Posts
September 03 2015 05:44 GMT
#18
On September 02 2015 06:37 logikly wrote:
Pvz is an awful match and in lotv beta(yes i know it is beta) it is even worse. Pvz has now turned into either +attack blink all in on 2nd base or start a 3rd and all in or just lose. Evidence to support this claim can be seen in pro level matches. Rarely, i mean rarely does templar//collosis come into play.

Where does this even come from?
Less is more.
NeThZOR
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
South Africa7387 Posts
September 03 2015 12:34 GMT
#19
2011/2012 SC2 was at its peak in my opinion. MLG, GSL, DreakHack etc. all in one year
SuperNova - 2015 | SKT1 fan for years | Dear, FlaSh, PartinG, Soulkey, Naniwa
stardog
Profile Joined August 2011
556 Posts
September 03 2015 14:58 GMT
#20
On September 02 2015 00:38 stuchiu wrote:
Conclusion

From the different eras of SC2, I’d argue the most interesting matchups were 2011-2012 ZvT, 2013-2015 Bio TvZ, 2012-2013 TvT, 2012, TvP, Post Rain PvP.

Which would mean that terran has been the best designed race - I think that's accurate.

Thanks stuchiu for this and other articles, we don't have enough quality sc2 journalism reaching beyond current events/games.
1 2 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
SC Evo League
12:00
#13
BRAT_OK 108
EnkiAlexander 60
LiquipediaDiscussion
Bellum Gens Elite
10:00
Stara Zagora 2025 Day 4
Zoun vs SerralLIVE!
Clem vs TBD
Bellum Gens Elite4483
ComeBackTV 1686
TaKeTV 623
IndyStarCraft 402
3DClanTV 198
Rex190
CosmosSc2 183
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Bellum Gens Elite4483
IndyStarCraft 402
Hui .358
Rex 190
CosmosSc2 183
BRAT_OK 108
ProTech70
MindelVK 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 51815
Bisu 1893
Jaedong 997
Hyuk 831
ZerO 479
Mini 426
actioN 323
BeSt 285
Soulkey 280
Hyun 188
[ Show more ]
sorry 113
Last 97
JYJ60
Sea.KH 56
sas.Sziky 34
Sacsri 25
ToSsGirL 21
Rock 17
soO 15
Terrorterran 14
IntoTheRainbow 12
SilentControl 10
ajuk12(nOOB) 9
Hm[arnc] 4
Dota 2
Gorgc6106
qojqva2611
XcaliburYe345
LuMiX1
League of Legends
Trikslyr41
Counter-Strike
olofmeister4717
fl0m4384
rGuardiaN8
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King189
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor278
Other Games
singsing2115
B2W.Neo1080
Beastyqt463
Lowko276
FrodaN207
KnowMe109
ArmadaUGS101
XaKoH 79
ZerO(Twitch)27
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream9048
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream632
Other Games
BasetradeTV102
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 12
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler102
League of Legends
• Nemesis3971
• Jankos1584
Upcoming Events
Fire Grow Cup
49m
CSO Contender
1h 49m
BSL: ProLeague
2h 49m
StRyKeR vs MadiNho
Cross vs UltrA
TT1 vs JDConan
Bonyth vs Sziky
Replay Cast
8h 49m
SOOP Global
11h 49m
Creator vs Rogue
Cure vs Classic
SOOP
17h 49m
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
18h 49m
AllThingsProtoss
19h 49m
Fire Grow Cup
23h 49m
BSL: ProLeague
1d 2h
HBO vs Doodle
spx vs Tech
DragOn vs Hawk
Dewalt vs TerrOr
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
1d 8h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
GSL Code S
3 days
Rogue vs GuMiho
Maru vs Solar
Replay Cast
4 days
GSL Code S
4 days
herO vs TBD
Classic vs TBD
The PondCast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL Code S
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Korean StarCraft League
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
Cheesadelphia
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 1
DreamHack Dallas 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
2025 GSL S2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
ECL Season 49: Europe
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.