• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:47
CET 12:47
KST 20:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win22025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!9BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION1Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams10Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" Could we add "Avoid Matchup" Feature for rankgame The New Patch Killed Mech! Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales! Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship $3,500 WardiTV Korean Royale S4
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions BW General Discussion BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET [ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals The Casual Games of the Week Thread BSL21 Open Qualifiers Week & CONFIRM PARTICIPATION ASL final tickets help
Strategy
PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread The Chess Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Just for future reference, …
Peanutsc
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
The Benefits Of Limited Comm…
TrAiDoS
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Certified Crazy
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1526 users

Picking up the DH project

Blogs > SC2John
Post a Reply
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-20 03:34:25
June 14 2015 17:53 GMT
#1
Update: the project was stolen from underneath me, and is now on an express route to seeing how many "No, we definitely don't want this model" responses they can get from Blizzard before they give up and discard the idea.

We also watched show matches, tried games ourselves, and we agree with the majority of you guys that it’s too similar to Heart of the Swarm. But we wanted to comment again on this because it’s still a topic discussed by some.
Just to reiterate once more, we’re not looking to make minor tweaks in this area. We’re looking for a big change that will make sure that players will spread out their expansions at a much faster rate than they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Currently, the resourcing model that we’re testing in the beta is doing a very good job of this.


Sorry guys, I really did want to work on a community model for us to experiment on and enjoy. As it is, DH still belongs to its originators, and they insist on using it in a war against Blizzard rather than a community experiment.

+ Show Spoiler +
So.

Many of you know about the Double Harvest push from TL that we started with this in-depth article. Basically, we pinpointed that the reason SC2 economy seems a little "off" is because workers pair on mineral nodes (2:1 worker to node ratio) and mine perfectly efficiently until ~19 workers on 8 nodes; as a result, a maximum of 24 nodes or three bases was more than enough to support a healthy economy. In comparison to BW and other games, workers don't quite pair on mineral nodes and "bounce around" more often after each mineral node has been taken, and naturally that means that more nodes were needed to mine from in order to get the most efficiency out of the workers. Our goal was to introduce slight inefficiencies to the SC2 economy to break the 2:1 ratio and pressure players to expand more often in order to unlock the full potential of their workers (even a ratio of 1.99:1 creates this effect). Also, in an attempt to keep the game as similar to HotS as possible, we created an income curve that would maintain the same income at 16 workers on one base (with the effect of creating a slightly higher income from workers 1-14). Ultimately, we wanted to create an economy that would pressure players into taking additional bases more often in a more positive way than starvation.

David Kim responded to our economy ideas with a veiled announcement of beta invites, and ultimately proved that he had little understanding of what we were trying to do. In an attempt to correct his misconception that having four bases gave DOUBLE the income of two bases in the DH mod on equal workers, Plexa gave an official reponse.

Moving forward, we decided to continue our work with DH by hosting a TL Open and making continued progress on the mod. Deeming that the DH10 (2x5) model gave slightly too much income, we instead settled on DH9 (3x3), which gave us more balanced results. Zeromus also talked on Lycan's The Late Game show about the mod and explained why we thought DH was worth trying in the LotV beta. After plenty of organization work, we got together the TL Open and had a pretty successful tournament. Bacon_Infinity and Lycan have also hosted several showmatches and tournaments using the DH mod in order to test the viability of such a model.

If you already know the history of the Double Harvesting mod, you can skip to this point

So after the TL Open, Plexa immediately wrote up an evaluation of the tournament to explain how the results met our goals and showed that we are heading in the right direction. This was on May 5th. However, due to the life events for our two main spokespersons (Plexa and Zeromus), they've simply been too busy to follow up on the DH evaluation. On top of that, the lackluster support we've gained from Blizzard as well as a few community members has really helped derail the movement.

However, being one who hates to let a good thing go to waste, I've decided to pick up the project with close coordination with BlackLillium for mod support. We're releasing the evaluation that Plexa wrote over a month ago to explain the ways that we think the mod is successful and facilitate more discussion. On top of this, we'd like to go ahead with perfecting what we have as well as experimenting with hybrid mods in order to explore more drastic changes. In particular, we want to try DH9 with as low as 1000 minerals per patch (8000 total per base compared to LotV's 9000) and a mixture of the half-patch model with DH mechanics (this will probably need to be tested on top of the LotV mod). If we find anything successful, we may even experiment with starting worker counts to see if there is any viability in starting with differing amounts of workers.

In short: I am picking up the DH project and continuing to work on it. Our goal is not to create some magical solution to SC2 or create an entirely different mod like OneGoal or Starbow. We simply just want to explore different economy options and see if we can produce a more positionally-based RTS experience that has lots of expanding and map-wide action. More is coming!

If you have any questions or complaints about the mod, I'd be happy to answer them for you .


****
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
June 14 2015 18:47 GMT
#2
You really should just give up, Blizzard won't listen.

Anyway, I think it's difficult to show how DH can improve the game without creating an environment where it can excel. It's similar to suggestions to change the pathfinding, which would all backfire because most unit relationships would continue to behave similarly, while some would be outright broken; and then people would ask what the point is.

Also, what's the point of testing extreme changes like 1000 minerals per patch? I thought the entire idea of DH was not to create the best possible economy system, but to come up with the smallest possible change with the most potential to improve the existing economy, particularly in introducing harsher forms of diminishing returns on workers. If you're going to experiment wildly that might have theoretical interest, but isn't it the case that you're defeating the purpose of advocating for DH?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
June 14 2015 19:59 GMT
#3
I really like that you're not letting DH die and that you'll try to make something out of it (although at this point the chances of Blizz incorporating it are probably below 1%), but why don't you consider DH8?
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 15 2015 02:00 GMT
#4
On June 15 2015 03:47 Grumbels wrote:
You really should just give up, Blizzard won't listen.

Anyway, I think it's difficult to show how DH can improve the game without creating an environment where it can excel. It's similar to suggestions to change the pathfinding, which would all backfire because most unit relationships would continue to behave similarly, while some would be outright broken; and then people would ask what the point is.

Also, what's the point of testing extreme changes like 1000 minerals per patch? I thought the entire idea of DH was not to create the best possible economy system, but to come up with the smallest possible change with the most potential to improve the existing economy, particularly in introducing harsher forms of diminishing returns on workers. If you're going to experiment wildly that might have theoretical interest, but isn't it the case that you're defeating the purpose of advocating for DH?


Well, tbh, the movement lost too much momentum in the month of inactivity to be of any real use in terms of specifically targeting a change for Blizzard to implement. And we've learned some lessons too. In my opinion, the primary reason that Blizzard isn't interested in DH is because it doesn't gel with their direction in LotV -- that is, moving away from big macro games with big armies clashing and more towards lots of small skirmishes around the map..."scrappy" play. The DH model in particular focuses on how to make mass expanding rewarding and obviously favors a higher economy type of play, so there really is no interest for Blizzard to go ahead and adopt it and deal with the balancing nightmare of slightly rebalancing everything.

And that's fine. I honestly still think that DH does nothing but improve the game in a positive way. There isn't a ton of data gathered so far, but all evidence points to DH providing for much more dynamic gameplay. For instance, worker counting is very important in DH; if your opponent cuts workers for an all-in, and you don't cut workers as well, it is much more difficult to defend than in HotS. It also provides a solid counter to turtle mech in terms of being able to expand and play aggressively at the same time (instead of just banking tons of gas and remaxing or just counter-turtling with more bases). The interaction of mobile vs immobile compositions also forces players who are taking longer to expand to harass more in order to stay even. And it works, it really does.

That said, we still want to create a better economy for the game, whatever Blizzard's intentions may be. Obviously people are underwhelmed by the "sameness" of the DH economy, particularly the first 10:00 which are largely unchanged, so we want to try to address that area of the game as well . In addition, I think trying out different ideas like FRB and half-patch in addition to the DH economy proves that it is still compatible with other ideas. (Though I said Blizzard is unlikely to adopt the DH model in any form, part of me still believes in proving that both models can coexist in a positive way). I think we're far from an idealized economy which improves SC2 positionally without changing the core gameplay as much as something like Starbow. As much as we believe that DH (and by correlation worker pairing) is the best place to start, we acknowledge that shaking things up via resource scarcity also brings something positive to the game, and the combination of the two could produce something even better.

The goal here is no longer to convince Blizzard to adopt the model outright. Instead, we feel a commitment to the community. Tired of playing a HotS turtlefest? Dislike the way LotV feels? Try something in between ^^.


On June 15 2015 04:59 OtherWorld wrote:
I really like that you're not letting DH die and that you'll try to make something out of it (although at this point the chances of Blizz incorporating it are probably below 1%), but why don't you consider DH8?


We have definitely considered DH8. The issue before was that we felt DH9 was more in line with getting Blizzard to adopt the model because at 16 workers per base, income was the same as HotS. DH8 on the other hand, falls a bit short, and would require significant rebalancing from Blizzard in order to fix the new mineral:gas ratios as well as the apparent slower economy. Obviously, Blizzard is now much less of a concern, but it's probably counterproductive to attempt to rebalance the game at this point when we have a model that already works. It also doesn't much fit our vision of creating a game state which closely resembles HotS.

It's definitely possible that the project may take a turn for DH8 at some point if we reason that it will produce something better. But at the moment, the focus is still on DH9.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
Captain Peabody
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3125 Posts
June 16 2015 03:31 GMT
#5
I'm glad you're still continuing to work on this. I do think there's more work to be done "solving" the economy for SC2, and that it would benefit from more work and more testing. Once you do figure things out more, there's probably still some chance to get at least some of the stuff you figure out adopted by Blizzard before the end of LotV.

I do think that working more to try to get to what you feel confident is a great and functional version of the economy is worth the effort, and is probably is more beneficial at this point than just lobbying to get Blizzard to adopt what you have right now.

Onward!
Dies Irae venit. youtube.com/SnobbinsFilms
Korakys
Profile Blog Joined November 2014
New Zealand272 Posts
June 17 2015 08:02 GMT
#6
BlackLillium really should have been brought up to the helm from the start of when this thing grabbed the TL staffs attention.

I'd like you guys to push on and I'm hopeful that something will come from this eventually, even if it's not what we all want. Getting a response from David Kim was quite big and now I am fairly certain his team is merely clueless and not malevolent.
Swing away sOs, swing away.
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
June 20 2015 03:34 GMT
#7
Update: the project was stolen from underneath me, and is now on an express route to seeing how many "No, we definitely don't want this model" responses they can get from Blizzard before they give up and discard the idea.

We also watched show matches, tried games ourselves, and we agree with the majority of you guys that it’s too similar to Heart of the Swarm. But we wanted to comment again on this because it’s still a topic discussed by some.
Just to reiterate once more, we’re not looking to make minor tweaks in this area. We’re looking for a big change that will make sure that players will spread out their expansions at a much faster rate than they do in Heart of the Swarm.
Currently, the resourcing model that we’re testing in the beta is doing a very good job of this.


Sorry guys, I really did want to work on a community model for us to experiment on and enjoy. As it is, DH still belongs to its originators, and they insist on using it in a war against Blizzard rather than a community experiment.
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
ShambhalaWar
Profile Joined August 2013
United States930 Posts
June 20 2015 18:57 GMT
#8
Please keep up the work on this, I'm backing your 100% (at least on posts ).

I think the three base cap is more of an artifact of design, than a true intention of design by Blizzard. I don't think there is anyway Blizzard would say they intended for a three base cap, but maybe they did?

To me it feels like an artifact/flaw, unintended, whatever you want to call it result of design. Seems to me that they wanted to design a game with more expansion and this achieves that, so lets fix the artifact. LOTV eco doesn't do that, unless you add DH to it. I'm with you, add DH to LOTV eco.

I like the early higher worker count of LOTV, it makes games shorter, which I also like. I don't want to play a 60 min game.
Just add DH to LOTV eco and it would enhance it by leaps imo. Only one way to find out is to try.

I def don't see the point of experimenting with it in a low worker count at the start scenario, because blizzard clearly wants to include the high worker start in LOTV, and I am happy they do (because I like it). But lets not end up with another starbow, I don't want to, nor would I play a mod... I want to play this new economy with a good ladder and archon mode and tourneys as a core mechanic of the game.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 14m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko206
Rex 85
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 2356
BeSt 938
actioN 493
Mini 221
EffOrt 188
Last 183
sSak 166
Light 161
ToSsGirL 62
Aegong 60
[ Show more ]
Mind 60
PianO 58
Liquid`Ret 27
Sharp 26
sorry 26
Sacsri 19
Icarus 19
soO 18
yabsab 14
Terrorterran 8
scan(afreeca) 8
HiyA 7
Bale 6
Dota 2
XcaliburYe345
ODPixel153
Counter-Strike
x6flipin424
fl0m140
oskar98
Other Games
singsing1828
olofmeister1140
B2W.Neo560
Pyrionflax335
crisheroes257
Sick149
Hui .65
Mew2King64
Happy13
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL8998
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 13
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 63
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2660
Upcoming Events
OSC
14m
WardiTV39
CrankTV Team League
1h 14m
Shopify Rebellion vs Team Falcon
BASILISK vs Team Liquid
Replay Cast
11h 14m
The PondCast
21h 14m
CrankTV Team League
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
ByuN vs Spirit
herO vs Solar
MaNa vs Gerald
Rogue vs GuMiho
CrankTV Team League
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
3 days
Dewalt vs Shine
UltrA vs ZeLoT
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
BSL Team A[vengers]
4 days
Cross vs Motive
Sziky vs HiyA
BSL 21
4 days
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
WardiTV TLMC #15
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
BSL 21 Team A
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.