• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:05
CEST 04:05
KST 11:05
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed10Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll4Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension3Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Who will win EWC 2025? The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion Starcraft in widescreen A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 693 users

Tournament Monetization - An Organizer's POV - Page 3

Blogs > LDdota
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
hariooo
Profile Joined October 2013
Canada2830 Posts
June 07 2015 10:50 GMT
#41
Artists subsidizing the pro scene is the biggest joke ever. There's no market for hats if the pro scene isn't big which gives the game prestige which draws the huge number of players that make hats financially viable in the first place. Artists are far more dependent on big tournaments than the other way around. If there were no more hats we'd still have tournaments, but not vice-versa.
a-game
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Canada5085 Posts
June 07 2015 11:04 GMT
#42
It will be interesting to see how the majors affect all of this.
you wouldnt feel that way if it was your magical sword of mantouchery that got stolen - racebannon • I am merely guest #13,678!
Ler
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
Germany543 Posts
June 07 2015 11:59 GMT
#43
No Hats, No Problem.
Twitter: @Ler_GG | Facebook: lergg | youtube: lerlolgg | Twitch.tv/gg_nore | #ArtOfSupport
FreakyDroid
Profile Joined July 2012
Macedonia2616 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 12:21:51
June 07 2015 12:21 GMT
#44
Imo the problem with Dota TV is that it offers little to no value for the casual gamer. The pros of having a ticket, besides getting hats, are almost non existent, the only thing i can think of is 1st person perspective, which appeals only to aspiring pros. One could argue that this is interesting for the casual gamer because its a way for them to improve, but most casuals want to improve by just playing the game, not wasting time to watch relays.

Twitch is way better because we get to watch the production from the organizers, the venue, the teams etc which is a way more exciting experience than just watching through Dota TV.

Nobody is happy with the system because everyone involved in this want a bigger slice from those 10$. Until you guys figure out a way to create more value for us without having to bundle tickets with hats, you're gonna have to live in a symbiotic relationship. Maybe its not perfect but it works for now and it generates enough funds for everyone.
Smile, tomorrow will be worse
Oktyabr
Profile Joined July 2011
Singapore2234 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 12:41:19
June 07 2015 12:39 GMT
#45
I figured I was part of the minority when I bought tickets solely to download replays and I always put all the cosmetics back up on sale to get compensated. The most ridiculous deal has to be G League 2013 which has the Roshan Hunter set. It costs 9.99 USD, but you could trade the entire set for 4 keys meaning that the ticket essentially came free.

I guess I must be the minority who still enjoys watching replays and this habit goes all the way back to DOTA 1 where that's the only way to watch games. I'm fine without the casting audio, and I love to replay different perspectives from players to see how they react to certain situations - you can actually pick up a lot of useful tips ingame to improve your own gameplay, and many of these moments can't be captured on twitch, either with bad observers or because there's too many things going on at once. I never liked watching games from twitch or even from DOTA TV live, but the only way to keep DOTA going forward without relying that much on hats lies in those alternative streaming platforms. Or tournament organizers could figure out a way to fix the audio on replays by submitting them to Valve to be added for post-processing.
LightTemplar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland481 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 13:04:41
June 07 2015 13:04 GMT
#46
As far as I can see organizers find it near impossible to monetize without recieving criticism. "Sellout" for sponsorship, "greed" for taking artist cuts. If they were to charge for streams people would be outraged or just straight wouldn't watch. These organizations are trying to provide entertainment for fans of a game and it feels like there is no way they can be rewarded without people complaining.

As a viewer, tournament organizers make or break the tournament. MDL that just finished up won Secret $100,000 and had much stiffer competition than Red Bull Battlgrounds in which they won only $40,000 (and the most ridiculoustrophy). However I will remember tournament (and the trophy) that RB put together because it was a well organised event with great production. As for the MDL i don't even know if there is a trophy. For me, tournament organizers are the key to making a tournament good, not hats, and as much as it bothers me to admit it, not nessecarily the best players.

However there seems to be no way to support organizers other than through tickets on dotatv. Even then the majority of the ticket price goes to valve and then the tournament prize pool. I feel like organizers are in a no-win situation with regards to earning money.
"Thoughts are always there, the mind can't stop" - Grubby
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11818 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 13:09:50
June 07 2015 13:08 GMT
#47
My major reason for not buying tickets is the cuts. I am not interesting in giving a lot of money to valve for a tournament they aren't running. A 0 % valve cut would see me buying a lot more tickets.

I am happy to give valve money for an even they actually run. Be it a tournament, a fun mode or a cosmetic I really like. Even then their cuts are strange. Take the TI events. 25% goes to prize pool. Assume another 20% are costs. The rest 55% are profit. I don't really see the point financing that above the minimum.
LightTemplar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland481 Posts
June 07 2015 13:17 GMT
#48
I certainly agree that the valve cut always bothers me with regard to tickets. I have no issue when it comes to taking cuts in cosmetics (they are modifactions of valve's IP, distributed and sold by valve). But the tickets always felt like Valve shooting themselves in the foot by making tournament organisers less capable of funding themselves, when tournament play is clearly a large focus of the dota2 community.
"Thoughts are always there, the mind can't stop" - Grubby
Dagobert
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Netherlands1858 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 13:29:11
June 07 2015 13:27 GMT
#49
On June 07 2015 12:34 gaijindash wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2015 09:05 LDdota wrote:
On June 07 2015 08:53 lestye wrote:
It just seems like a shitty situation all around because hatmakers don't have the same opportunities with bundling their sets together like we've scene in some tournament compendium bundles, they don't get sponsorships or twitch revenue, It's not like there's literally no other place for tournaments to make money.


Tournaments also have stratospherically higher costs than hat makers. Twitch revenue is extremely insignificant nowadays, probably due to the ongoing proliferation of adblock.

Dota ticket sales currently provide very little profit for organizers. You're already giving up half your share to crowdfund, then everyone involved with the hats gets their cut, and there's not much left by that point.

There's a reason why people like Kennigit often state publicly that they dont even factor DOTA2 revenue into their business plans and financial models, and it's because it is just completely insubstantial relative to sponsors and live audience ticket sales (except for DAC and TI, but that's a totally separate discussion).

You mentioned the low revenue for tournament organizers due to adblock and ticket sales being insignificant

No. He claimed Twitch revenue was extremely insignificant. I assume he meant the money generated from Twitch ads sent to the streaming account. Twitch itself (Amazon) is probably doing quite well (Amazon paid 970M for it after all).

Second, he said PROFIT was low for tournament organizers. Profit is what you have left after you paid for all expenses (including your own salary). Making little profit is very different from having low revenue.

In fact, it is often beneficial to lower the profit margin... many companies routinely do this to evade taxes. If you had to pay 1bn in taxes or acquire an interesting company for that money... what would you do?
StarVe
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany13591 Posts
June 07 2015 14:35 GMT
#50
Yeah he said Twitch revenue was insignificant, but he also said PROFIT from TICKETS was low, there aren't really a lot of expenses going into BTS putting up a ticket for a tournament.
shizaep
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada2920 Posts
June 07 2015 17:14 GMT
#51
On June 07 2015 20:04 a-game wrote:
It will be interesting to see how the majors affect all of this.

Compendiums bundled with immortals trying to raise Valve money, same as it was at TI and DAC?
You mean I just write stuff here and other people can see it?
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 22:39:04
June 07 2015 22:03 GMT
#52
Thanks for posting this LD. I have read quite a lot at Polycount from Anuxi and others about the other side of this issue and I care a lot about the workshop artists both from the perspective of someone who respects artists and the struggles they often face, and more specifically as a cosmetic collector to whom workshop artists have brought much joy.

I also have a great appreciation for BTS and other third-party organizations who do an honest job of trying to produce some quality competitive Dota. Right now this system is causing difficulties for both artists and TOs. So let's grind on it a bit more.


Defining the problem set

  1. Artists feel beholden to third-party organizations to get their work published and get paid
  2. Tournament organizers have limited options for revenue streams
  3. Tournament tickets themselves, independent of bundled items, add only marginal value
  4. Bundled cosmetics dominate the drive for ticket sales
  5. As a consequence of these things, and the current revenue split model, TOs and artists depend on each-other and must divide a meager percentage of ticket revenue between them

OK so if you literally just tuned into the thread I think you've got the basics.


What's our desired end-state?

It's not enough just to know what the problems are. What you need to define is a desired end-state. Doing this will help you separate desired results and possible means.

The problems of the workshop economy are manifold so I think what we want to do is define this from the perspective of TOs with the objective of at least not making the problems artists face worse.

I propose that our desired end-state is one in which tournament organizers can generate significantly greater internalized revenue in total AND in proportion to the work put in by workshop artists.

If this is accomplished:

  1. TOs will be less reliant on artists
  2. As a consequence, Valve can - not necessarily will, but can - comfortably release more cosmetics independent of tournament bundles
  3. TOs will generate more revenue for the same product

So how do we accomplish this? Let's break it apart.


What's a tournament ticket without a bundle?

It's just DotaTV access, right? One avenue of increasing the value of the ticket itself is in simply improving DotaTV. I personally love DotaTV. I use it all the time. And that's why, from a viewer perspective, I can talk about all the shit that's wrong with it. And it's a lot.

While the challenges DTV gives producers are important, this is about increasing the value of a DTV ticket, not making things easier for PimpmuckL et al. Unfortunately we have no idea what's happening to DTV with Source2, so let's assume none of this is being fixed.

Since we want to add value to tickets and DTV is the core product of a ticket, let's talk about that value.
  1. Unfuck audio. Give us a bit better of a codec, and fix whatever it is that's making us lose casters on a regular basis.
  2. Give us the option of following a broadcast, taking us from game-to-game.
  3. Provide, at the least, uninterrupted audio between games.
  4. To go with this, give some kind of visual bridge broadcasters can use to communicate what is going on if there is no video.
  5. Fix all the damn player perspective bugs.
  6. Fix DTV lag that doesn't show up in streams.
  7. Completely rework the replay interface. A tournament isn't just a list of games.
  8. Create significantly more robust replay download options. Give us a download manager and the ability to subscribe. Let us download a whole series - and give us a series interface in-replay so we can skip ahead to the next game at will - or go on auto-play.
  9. Move that goddamned bar at the bottom so it's easier to inspect sets.

Many things could be done that would improve broadcasting also but our focus is on increasing the value of a ticket, and most of these fixes are just about bringing the DTV experience in some aspects closer to par with watching a game on a streaming service. And this is a very quick pass if I'm honest.

Ticket purchases currently provide you with three things: the ability to watch the game live, the ability to watch replays on demand, and an interactivity with the observation experience. The above only addresses the first two aspects, which are currently not very competitive.

Before continuing it's important to take a second to acknowledge something about Dota2 in general: this entire economy is based on a price-discrimination model. While we want to see more revenue in Dota, if we ever see an economy where a lot more people aren't watching a tournament on a free streaming service we know something has gone very, very wrong with the ecosystem. What you want to do in a price-discrimination model is not to force people to spend money but make them want to. On one end of the spectrum, you give people a free product. On the other, you give people who have a LOT of money ways and motivation to spend a LOT of money.

Valve has gotten very, very good at this, as demonstrated between TI4 and now. If the average person should learn anything from this it's that there's always a new idea, a new way to get people to open their wallets. Unfortunately for third parties, Valve has and will always have more options in this regard than most TOs. Even more unfortunate is when Valve is putting 25% into a pot, they get to take 75% to pay everyone involved - including their artists. The TO running a tournament with 25% pot contribution gets to work with 12.5%.

It shouldn't require pointing out that price discrimination completely fails if you can make the argument that what you're paying for is worse than the free product, especially when it comes with essentially zero prestige. Thankfully, Valve is capable of implementing many fixes to DTV, TOs are capable of ideas, and the revenue split model is not written in stone.


Your love give me such a thrill...

Another way to achieve the desired end-state is to just change the goddamned equation. Let's agree on three premises:
  1. Tournaments bring significant positive externalities to Dota2 in growing, exciting, and informing the playerbase
  2. Valve is making a lot more money from this monster than they were when they originally set up the current revenue system
  3. Regardless, there are still costs associated with ticket sales and there are no Dota2 tournaments without Dota2


The fixed costs associated with DTV are not insignificant: there is an engineering investment for its development and maintenance, and for any major improvements like the short list above. It's probably reasonable to assume that the investment into server infrastructure is defined far more by Valve's own events than any other tournaments, with the exception of something like DAC where they realized they needed to serve DTV from outside of China.

The majority of costs associated with ticket sales, then, are the variable costs of serving DTV content. I think it's safe to assume that this consumes a very small portion of the ticket price for a premium tournament. When you add cosmetics to the mix there is the manhours cost of the personnel dedicated to the oversight and implementation of workshop cosmetics.

I think it's safe to assume that Valve does not need 62.5% to cover these expenses. The remaining argument then is that this is one of the ways Valve pays for the development and improvement of the game. Well, we have a wee problem right now:

[image loading]

TI5 is making a ton of money. Many tournaments have raised very impressive pots. But the playerbase is not growing with TI this time. Certainly there are factors outside of Dota contributing to this but that doesn't change it as a source of concern. When people talk about the sustainability of third-party tournaments or the sustainability of the workshop economy, one factor rules all others: how many potential customers are playing the game?

Valve needs to take seriously TO's role in the growth of the playerbase and invest. There are multiple vectors for this, such as increasing the staff dedicated to third-party tournaments, and providing local servers for major LANs (seriously: do it).

But the other way is to just give up more of their pie. I've heard many arguments from artists about the way their split comes but Valve's philosophy seems to be simple: we want you to pay players, so we'll help, we'll take our cut, and involved parties can take the rest. What do I propose?

Simple: move from single-match to 1.5-match. Keep the starting split the same 75/25. But, if a TO wants to get to the traditional 25-point pot share, now they only give up 10 points, and valve gives up 15. Valve still gets 57.5 points, but a TO has 2.5 more points to work with. This will allow them to either have more points to offer an artist (ask DC how much of a difference working with a top-tier artist like Kunkka made for them) or keep more. For Valve, five points in a tournament means almost nothing on the scale of things. For studios and artists, 2.5 points means a lot.

There are a lot of investments Valve needs to be making so let's not pretend that any one problem has a ton of money that can be thrown at it without opportunity costs. But investments sustaining third-party tournaments is very much in Valve's interest and will pay for itself if done intelligently.


You wanna take this outside?

Not everything is about Valve. Don't get it twisted - we have plenty more "what Valve should be doing" to talk about, but they aren't the only way to increase revenue.

First, let's talk about sponsorships.

Or rather, let's talk about "who is willing to throw money at a tournament" because the average TO is fucking awful at sponsorships.

Actually, let's talk about how to stop sucking at sponsorships.

I keep hearing that esports sponsorships are hard. The money is tight. The returns for sponsors are uncertain. But what I also see is organizations - teams and sites and organizers, all - failing to take an intelligent approach to getting that money. Certainly it's easier from my perspective to criticize because I'm not the one in the hot seat, scrambling to try and make sure my people get paid. But that doesn't change the fact that bad strategy is bad strategy.

The current strategy seems to be: we are hosting a Dota2 professional tournament, who has money to throw at this and how can we entice them to throw more.

This gives you sponsors like G2A, Vulcun, Twitch, whatever.

Here's what you need to think about in the future:
  1. What is our product, SPECIFICALLY?
  2. Who are the personalities coming to the event and what special marketability do they have?
  3. What opportunities are there for sponsor engagement?
  4. What are our expenses and what potential exists to reduce them through minor sponsorships?
  5. Who. Is. Our. Audience.

A good sponsorship is more like a partnership. When it has this feel it is more successful for the sponsor as they generate good will in the audience, it feels better for the organizers, and it provides not just money but enhancements to the event.

Let me give you an example. I live in the Bay Area. Let's say I wanted to host an invitational in San Francisco. Invitationals provide little DTV value because they have no qualifiers. I want to add some value to the ticket so I decide I'm going to have a collegiate tournament. I talk to Chegg about sponsoring such an event with scholarship money. For a few dollars more they can get some additional push in the main tournament which will have many college students watching. Even if they decide to leave it at scholarship money I now have a sponsor who is paying for the entire incentive to have local college students compete. I can talk to local universities - there are a couple of note here - about providing facilities for whatever segment of this competition, in exchange for something like a video tour of the campus and maybe airing some plugs about the university during that portion of the competition.

I now have more content for my competition even if I don't have more money from the extra parties involved (and I certainly might). And it all should feel quite organic.

Moving forward to the LAN, we're flying players from all over the world to San Francisco. What opportunities does this create? Well, depending on the format, quite a lot. We can first look at simple expenses: the players need to be flown and housed and fed. Are you talking to travel websites? Are you talking to hospitality organizations? In the words of Scrooge McDuck, money saved is money earned. I have not one time, ever, seen a sponsorship from, say, Travelocity associated with a tournament that is flying players from 5-10 countries, for fuck's sake. I find it impossible to believe there is no opportunity there. I find it impossible to believe that no major hotel in the history of Dota2 has been willing to at least provide a discount.

Now we've got players in San Francisco, an international tourist destination, for several days. Remember that sponsorships aren't just about your revenue and/or reducing your costs but also about creating a better product. How about I talk to the SF tourism board. Maybe I should talk to CityPass and see what kind of deal they're interested in. Maybe comp CityPass tickets to all the teams in exchange for a place on the sponsor banner? Maybe do more than that in exchange for some money? I bet I could get SFDOT to comp some Clipper Cards so the players can get around. Maybe we run around with a camera. Or maybe we talk to GoPro.

Twitch is here. Twitch sponsors everything but how would they like to take it to the next level for this? Let's have some pro players visit the office. Crunchyroll is here. Can you say target audience? Can you partner with them and whatever select players are interested to create some sponsored content?

I mean it goes on and on. And none of this precludes the kind of sponsor involvement that already exists. If you sit down and think about what you're doing, where you're doing it, who is doing it with you, and who will be watching, lots of ideas should come up.

What if you're just hosting a LAN inside a house? Hm, who sells stuff to PC gamer nerds for their house. Who indeed...

The other obvious thing to talk about is Twitch. I'm working on a post about Twitch that doesn't talk about monetization much but suffice it to say they have lots of work to do all around. I don't believe the site as-it-is offers a lot of opportunities for extra monetization. They have a lot of work to do.


The merchman cometh

I honestly don't have much to say about the current state of merchandising but it seems to be that it kinda sucks for TOs. And I don't know how much better it can get when the overwhelming bulk of licenses are owned by teams, players, and Valve. But, there are ways to improve it even I can see.

First, if Valve is taking an active interest in the health of the organizers they can help by leveraging their own resources to make TO merchandise cheaper to produce - even if they themselves see no profit from it. They can also make it easier to merch an event by working with TO submissions in the meatspace shop the same way they work with them for cosmetics. I don't know where exactly the boundaries are for making Dota merch with regards to heroes, the Dota logo, etc., but certainly there must be more flexibility if it's being sold through Valve's own store.

Secondly, even without third-party merchandise, TOs can contribute to the sale of existing merchandise in Valve store, and Valve can give them a cut. I don't believe the mechanism for this exists yet, but it should, and it should be part of the following approach.


I've got a golden ticket...

The great beauty of in-game tickets is the tournament is the product. With sponsors, cosmetics, merchandise...something else is the product. And that is never going to stop being the primary profit driver. But the tickets themselves need to be improved. We talked briefly earlier about bringing DTV up to par as a means to watch games. But there's much further to go than that.

Ideally, systems are created that drive revenue for each individual tournament without creating work for each individual tournament. This is what improvements to DTV broadcasting and download bring. This is the opposite of what cosmetics bring.

Outside of the broadcast itself, what have we got now?

Heroics: Drops are fucking abysmal right now. ABYSMAL. Heroics aren't even worth mentioning as a value bonus for ticket owners right now. Valve needs to really think about this.

OK! That was a short list. And the only item on it can be basically ignored.

Here's what we should have:

Fantasy: Create a fantasy league exclusively for ticket owners to premium tournaments. Have something like effigy drops for winners and high placement. Maybe you get a custom gold effigy block for #1. Do something with the trophy shelf, like highest fantasy placement and/or number of fantasy leagues placed/won. Let people buy extra entries to the fantasy league the way people buy compendium points. Have brackets, too. Give a drop of some kind as a reward for bracket correctness.

Twitch interactivity: In five years if we don't look back on Twitch today and think of it as extremely primitive they have missed massive opportunities. It's been almost two years since linking your Twitch and Steam accounts was introduced. Nothing's been done with it since. The original feature, heroic drops, has been nerfed to hell. Ticket owners could have an icon. Emotes. Their own chat channel. Much more if someone really wanted to work on it.

Golden tickets: Remember the price discrimination model. Convincing people to buy tickets is good. Giving people means/motive to spend more on a tournament improves on that. Past a point this is really all about prestige. That's the only reason we have compendium levels going up to 10,000. And that's not realistic for every tournament, but put in place systems by which EVERY tournament can give people with more money ways to spend it on pure prestige stuff. Got a ticket? Great. You get your DTV and your other stuff and a little ticket icon added to the top of your profile. Would you like to upgrade to a golden ticket? It'll cost the same as the ticket did in the first place. Now your ticket icon is gold. Now you get +1 on a trophy somewhere. Now you get an extra fantasy entry and automatically receive an effigy block stamped with the tournament's name. You look even cooler and sexier in Twitch chat and DTV chat. Maybe there's some shit we can't even think about because Valve is going to build a new site dedicated to out-of-client shit related to the competitive scene.

InterAPPtivity: (get it? I am clever). You know what sucks? Watching DTV on my TV and having to go over to my PC to unfuck it every game. You know what's amazing? Every Steam account can only be logged-in on one PC. You know what would be reasonably simple from an engineering perspective? Linking up a mobile/tablet app to your DTV experience. Give me a nice tablet interface to change perspectives. To view graphs. To switch games. To rewind. To view player profiles. Oh cool I can shop from here. Give TOs a cut of the revenue when people shop from the app while watching their tournament. There are huge possibilities here. The undeniably greatest thing about DTV is that, unless you have a shitty PC, the picture quality is fucking unimpeachible. It's an overwhelmingly better picture for your big living room TV. But your living room TV probably doesn't have your PC's mouse and keyboard attached to it. So work that angle. With a second screen, there's a lot there.


That's it.

That's all you have to do. All of the above. Twitch, Valve, TOs. A mere pittance of work. You also need to come up with some goddamned ideas. But here's what we've got:

  • Valve, make DTV better to watch
  • Valve, give up a little more of your ticket revenue
  • Valve, make merchandising easier for TOs
  • Valve, create serious added value to owning a ticket AROUND the competition
  • Valve, make some damned apps and let me control DTV from the kitchen or what the fuck ever
  • Valve, start incentivizing people driving traffic to your store and market (RIP Hattery)
  • Twitch, keep the pressure on. Your viewer experience is competing with Valve's solely by the grace of your broadcasters. Provide them better technology and more routes for monetization
  • Twitch, give ticket owners more of a boost when watching games on your site. This is beneficial for everyone.
  • Twitch, the organization of your website is fucking terrible and this includes how competitive is handled. More about this in a coming post.
  • Tournament organizers, suck less at sponsorships, and do better with the DTV tools you have now. I'm looking at you, Godz.
  • Everyone: ideate. Identify problems, think about where you want to be, and build a bridge.

Simple.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
gaijindash
Profile Joined January 2015
Japan376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 23:37:12
June 07 2015 23:34 GMT
#53
On June 08 2015 07:03 FHDH wrote:
Thanks for posting this LD. I have read quite a lot at Polycount from Anuxi and others about the other side of this issue and I care a lot about the workshop artists both from the perspective of someone who respects artists and the struggles they often face, and more specifically as a cosmetic collector to whom workshop artists have brought much joy.

I also have a great appreciation for BTS and other third-party organizations who do an honest job of trying to produce some quality competitive Dota. Right now this system is causing difficulties for both artists and TOs. So let's grind on it a bit more.

...

Simple.


I'm speachless dude, Its like you broke out of your cocoon of troll posts into a beautiful discussion contributing butterfly.
Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says 'I will try again tommorow'
gaijindash
Profile Joined January 2015
Japan376 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-07 23:36:29
June 07 2015 23:35 GMT
#54
Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says 'I will try again tommorow'
Townkill
Profile Joined April 2015
United States7 Posts
June 07 2015 23:44 GMT
#55
On June 07 2015 23:35 StarVe wrote:
Yeah he said Twitch revenue was insignificant, but he also said PROFIT from TICKETS was low, there aren't really a lot of expenses going into BTS putting up a ticket for a tournament.
Yea, how about it. Just plane tickets within 30 days for about 60 people(off the head count), building 40 brand new computers with HD's for each individual player. Last minute hotel costs, and who needs equipment to produce DotA on a couch right?
When you talk, you repeat what you already know, when you listen, you learn something.
FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
June 08 2015 00:20 GMT
#56
On June 08 2015 08:34 gaijindash wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2015 07:03 FHDH wrote:
Thanks for posting this LD. I have read quite a lot at Polycount from Anuxi and others about the other side of this issue and I care a lot about the workshop artists both from the perspective of someone who respects artists and the struggles they often face, and more specifically as a cosmetic collector to whom workshop artists have brought much joy.

I also have a great appreciation for BTS and other third-party organizations who do an honest job of trying to produce some quality competitive Dota. Right now this system is causing difficulties for both artists and TOs. So let's grind on it a bit more.

...

Simple.


I'm speachless dude, Its like you broke out of your cocoon of troll posts into a beautiful discussion contributing butterfly.

All of my posts are extremely serious
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
gaijindash
Profile Joined January 2015
Japan376 Posts
June 08 2015 00:31 GMT
#57
On June 08 2015 09:20 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2015 08:34 gaijindash wrote:
On June 08 2015 07:03 FHDH wrote:
Thanks for posting this LD. I have read quite a lot at Polycount from Anuxi and others about the other side of this issue and I care a lot about the workshop artists both from the perspective of someone who respects artists and the struggles they often face, and more specifically as a cosmetic collector to whom workshop artists have brought much joy.

I also have a great appreciation for BTS and other third-party organizations who do an honest job of trying to produce some quality competitive Dota. Right now this system is causing difficulties for both artists and TOs. So let's grind on it a bit more.

...

Simple.


I'm speachless dude, Its like you broke out of your cocoon of troll posts into a beautiful discussion contributing butterfly.

All of my posts are extremely serious


I always knew you were a smart guy ^_^
Courage does not always roar, sometimes courage is the little voice at the end of the day that says 'I will try again tommorow'
Howie_Dewitt
Profile Joined March 2014
United States1416 Posts
June 08 2015 01:02 GMT
#58
On June 08 2015 09:20 FHDH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 08 2015 08:34 gaijindash wrote:
On June 08 2015 07:03 FHDH wrote:
Thanks for posting this LD. I have read quite a lot at Polycount from Anuxi and others about the other side of this issue and I care a lot about the workshop artists both from the perspective of someone who respects artists and the struggles they often face, and more specifically as a cosmetic collector to whom workshop artists have brought much joy.

I also have a great appreciation for BTS and other third-party organizations who do an honest job of trying to produce some quality competitive Dota. Right now this system is causing difficulties for both artists and TOs. So let's grind on it a bit more.

...

Simple.


I'm speachless dude, Its like you broke out of your cocoon of troll posts into a beautiful discussion contributing butterfly.

All of my posts are extremely serious

On May 19 2015 14:02 FHDH wrote:
Jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler
TECHIES, TECHIES
Jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler
TECHIES TECHIES
Jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler jungler
TECHIES TECHIES
SHAAAAAADOW BLAAAAADE IS GOOD ON EVERY CAAARRYYY

Hue
Sisyphus had a good gig going, the disappointment was predictable. | Visions of the Country (1978) is for when you're lost.
Reson
Profile Joined July 2014
530 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-06-08 09:39:23
June 08 2015 03:51 GMT
#59
+ Show Spoiler +
On June 08 2015 07:03 FHDH wrote:
Thanks for posting this LD. I have read quite a lot at Polycount from Anuxi and others about the other side of this issue and I care a lot about the workshop artists both from the perspective of someone who respects artists and the struggles they often face, and more specifically as a cosmetic collector to whom workshop artists have brought much joy.

I also have a great appreciation for BTS and other third-party organizations who do an honest job of trying to produce some quality competitive Dota. Right now this system is causing difficulties for both artists and TOs. So let's grind on it a bit more.


Defining the problem set

  1. Artists feel beholden to third-party organizations to get their work published and get paid
  2. Tournament organizers have limited options for revenue streams
  3. Tournament tickets themselves, independent of bundled items, add only marginal value
  4. Bundled cosmetics dominate the drive for ticket sales
  5. As a consequence of these things, and the current revenue split model, TOs and artists depend on each-other and must divide a meager percentage of ticket revenue between them

OK so if you literally just tuned into the thread I think you've got the basics.


What's our desired end-state?

It's not enough just to know what the problems are. What you need to define is a desired end-state. Doing this will help you separate desired results and possible means.

The problems of the workshop economy are manifold so I think what we want to do is define this from the perspective of TOs with the objective of at least not making the problems artists face worse.

I propose that our desired end-state is one in which tournament organizers can generate significantly greater internalized revenue in total AND in proportion to the work put in by workshop artists.

If this is accomplished:

  1. TOs will be less reliant on artists
  2. As a consequence, Valve can - not necessarily will, but can - comfortably release more cosmetics independent of tournament bundles
  3. TOs will generate more revenue for the same product

So how do we accomplish this? Let's break it apart.


What's a tournament ticket without a bundle?

It's just DotaTV access, right? One avenue of increasing the value of the ticket itself is in simply improving DotaTV. I personally love DotaTV. I use it all the time. And that's why, from a viewer perspective, I can talk about all the shit that's wrong with it. And it's a lot.

While the challenges DTV gives producers are important, this is about increasing the value of a DTV ticket, not making things easier for PimpmuckL et al. Unfortunately we have no idea what's happening to DTV with Source2, so let's assume none of this is being fixed.

Since we want to add value to tickets and DTV is the core product of a ticket, let's talk about that value.
  1. Unfuck audio. Give us a bit better of a codec, and fix whatever it is that's making us lose casters on a regular basis.
  2. Give us the option of following a broadcast, taking us from game-to-game.
  3. Provide, at the least, uninterrupted audio between games.
  4. To go with this, give some kind of visual bridge broadcasters can use to communicate what is going on if there is no video.
  5. Fix all the damn player perspective bugs.
  6. Fix DTV lag that doesn't show up in streams.
  7. Completely rework the replay interface. A tournament isn't just a list of games.
  8. Create significantly more robust replay download options. Give us a download manager and the ability to subscribe. Let us download a whole series - and give us a series interface in-replay so we can skip ahead to the next game at will - or go on auto-play.
  9. Move that goddamned bar at the bottom so it's easier to inspect sets.

Many things could be done that would improve broadcasting also but our focus is on increasing the value of a ticket, and most of these fixes are just about bringing the DTV experience in some aspects closer to par with watching a game on a streaming service. And this is a very quick pass if I'm honest.

Ticket purchases currently provide you with three things: the ability to watch the game live, the ability to watch replays on demand, and an interactivity with the observation experience. The above only addresses the first two aspects, which are currently not very competitive.

Before continuing it's important to take a second to acknowledge something about Dota2 in general: this entire economy is based on a price-discrimination model. While we want to see more revenue in Dota, if we ever see an economy where a lot more people aren't watching a tournament on a free streaming service we know something has gone very, very wrong with the ecosystem. What you want to do in a price-discrimination model is not to force people to spend money but make them want to. On one end of the spectrum, you give people a free product. On the other, you give people who have a LOT of money ways and motivation to spend a LOT of money.

Valve has gotten very, very good at this, as demonstrated between TI4 and now. If the average person should learn anything from this it's that there's always a new idea, a new way to get people to open their wallets. Unfortunately for third parties, Valve has and will always have more options in this regard than most TOs. Even more unfortunate is when Valve is putting 25% into a pot, they get to take 75% to pay everyone involved - including their artists. The TO running a tournament with 25% pot contribution gets to work with 12.5%.

It shouldn't require pointing out that price discrimination completely fails if you can make the argument that what you're paying for is worse than the free product, especially when it comes with essentially zero prestige. Thankfully, Valve is capable of implementing many fixes to DTV, TOs are capable of ideas, and the revenue split model is not written in stone.


Your love give me such a thrill...

Another way to achieve the desired end-state is to just change the goddamned equation. Let's agree on three premises:
  1. Tournaments bring significant positive externalities to Dota2 in growing, exciting, and informing the playerbase
  2. Valve is making a lot more money from this monster than they were when they originally set up the current revenue system
  3. Regardless, there are still costs associated with ticket sales and there are no Dota2 tournaments without Dota2


The fixed costs associated with DTV are not insignificant: there is an engineering investment for its development and maintenance, and for any major improvements like the short list above. It's probably reasonable to assume that the investment into server infrastructure is defined far more by Valve's own events than any other tournaments, with the exception of something like DAC where they realized they needed to serve DTV from outside of China.

The majority of costs associated with ticket sales, then, are the variable costs of serving DTV content. I think it's safe to assume that this consumes a very small portion of the ticket price for a premium tournament. When you add cosmetics to the mix there is the manhours cost of the personnel dedicated to the oversight and implementation of workshop cosmetics.

I think it's safe to assume that Valve does not need 62.5% to cover these expenses. The remaining argument then is that this is one of the ways Valve pays for the development and improvement of the game. Well, we have a wee problem right now:

[image loading]

TI5 is making a ton of money. Many tournaments have raised very impressive pots. But the playerbase is not growing with TI this time. Certainly there are factors outside of Dota contributing to this but that doesn't change it as a source of concern. When people talk about the sustainability of third-party tournaments or the sustainability of the workshop economy, one factor rules all others: how many potential customers are playing the game?

Valve needs to take seriously TO's role in the growth of the playerbase and invest. There are multiple vectors for this, such as increasing the staff dedicated to third-party tournaments, and providing local servers for major LANs (seriously: do it).

But the other way is to just give up more of their pie. I've heard many arguments from artists about the way their split comes but Valve's philosophy seems to be simple: we want you to pay players, so we'll help, we'll take our cut, and involved parties can take the rest. What do I propose?

Simple: move from single-match to 1.5-match. Keep the starting split the same 75/25. But, if a TO wants to get to the traditional 25-point pot share, now they only give up 10 points, and valve gives up 15. Valve still gets 57.5 points, but a TO has 2.5 more points to work with. This will allow them to either have more points to offer an artist (ask DC how much of a difference working with a top-tier artist like Kunkka made for them) or keep more. For Valve, five points in a tournament means almost nothing on the scale of things. For studios and artists, 2.5 points means a lot.

There are a lot of investments Valve needs to be making so let's not pretend that any one problem has a ton of money that can be thrown at it without opportunity costs. But investments sustaining third-party tournaments is very much in Valve's interest and will pay for itself if done intelligently.


You wanna take this outside?

Not everything is about Valve. Don't get it twisted - we have plenty more "what Valve should be doing" to talk about, but they aren't the only way to increase revenue.

First, let's talk about sponsorships.

Or rather, let's talk about "who is willing to throw money at a tournament" because the average TO is fucking awful at sponsorships.

Actually, let's talk about how to stop sucking at sponsorships.

I keep hearing that esports sponsorships are hard. The money is tight. The returns for sponsors are uncertain. But what I also see is organizations - teams and sites and organizers, all - failing to take an intelligent approach to getting that money. Certainly it's easier from my perspective to criticize because I'm not the one in the hot seat, scrambling to try and make sure my people get paid. But that doesn't change the fact that bad strategy is bad strategy.

The current strategy seems to be: we are hosting a Dota2 professional tournament, who has money to throw at this and how can we entice them to throw more.

This gives you sponsors like G2A, Vulcun, Twitch, whatever.

Here's what you need to think about in the future:
  1. What is our product, SPECIFICALLY?
  2. Who are the personalities coming to the event and what special marketability do they have?
  3. What opportunities are there for sponsor engagement?
  4. What are our expenses and what potential exists to reduce them through minor sponsorships?
  5. Who. Is. Our. Audience.

A good sponsorship is more like a partnership. When it has this feel it is more successful for the sponsor as they generate good will in the audience, it feels better for the organizers, and it provides not just money but enhancements to the event.

Let me give you an example. I live in the Bay Area. Let's say I wanted to host an invitational in San Francisco. Invitationals provide little DTV value because they have no qualifiers. I want to add some value to the ticket so I decide I'm going to have a collegiate tournament. I talk to Chegg about sponsoring such an event with scholarship money. For a few dollars more they can get some additional push in the main tournament which will have many college students watching. Even if they decide to leave it at scholarship money I now have a sponsor who is paying for the entire incentive to have local college students compete. I can talk to local universities - there are a couple of note here - about providing facilities for whatever segment of this competition, in exchange for something like a video tour of the campus and maybe airing some plugs about the university during that portion of the competition.

I now have more content for my competition even if I don't have more money from the extra parties involved (and I certainly might). And it all should feel quite organic.

Moving forward to the LAN, we're flying players from all over the world to San Francisco. What opportunities does this create? Well, depending on the format, quite a lot. We can first look at simple expenses: the players need to be flown and housed and fed. Are you talking to travel websites? Are you talking to hospitality organizations? In the words of Scrooge McDuck, money saved is money earned. I have not one time, ever, seen a sponsorship from, say, Travelocity associated with a tournament that is flying players from 5-10 countries, for fuck's sake. I find it impossible to believe there is no opportunity there. I find it impossible to believe that no major hotel in the history of Dota2 has been willing to at least provide a discount.

Now we've got players in San Francisco, an international tourist destination, for several days. Remember that sponsorships aren't just about your revenue and/or reducing your costs but also about creating a better product. How about I talk to the SF tourism board. Maybe I should talk to CityPass and see what kind of deal they're interested in. Maybe comp CityPass tickets to all the teams in exchange for a place on the sponsor banner? Maybe do more than that in exchange for some money? I bet I could get SFDOT to comp some Clipper Cards so the players can get around. Maybe we run around with a camera. Or maybe we talk to GoPro.

Twitch is here. Twitch sponsors everything but how would they like to take it to the next level for this? Let's have some pro players visit the office. Crunchyroll is here. Can you say target audience? Can you partner with them and whatever select players are interested to create some sponsored content?

I mean it goes on and on. And none of this precludes the kind of sponsor involvement that already exists. If you sit down and think about what you're doing, where you're doing it, who is doing it with you, and who will be watching, lots of ideas should come up.

What if you're just hosting a LAN inside a house? Hm, who sells stuff to PC gamer nerds for their house. Who indeed...

The other obvious thing to talk about is Twitch. I'm working on a post about Twitch that doesn't talk about monetization much but suffice it to say they have lots of work to do all around. I don't believe the site as-it-is offers a lot of opportunities for extra monetization. They have a lot of work to do.


The merchman cometh

I honestly don't have much to say about the current state of merchandising but it seems to be that it kinda sucks for TOs. And I don't know how much better it can get when the overwhelming bulk of licenses are owned by teams, players, and Valve. But, there are ways to improve it even I can see.

First, if Valve is taking an active interest in the health of the organizers they can help by leveraging their own resources to make TO merchandise cheaper to produce - even if they themselves see no profit from it. They can also make it easier to merch an event by working with TO submissions in the meatspace shop the same way they work with them for cosmetics. I don't know where exactly the boundaries are for making Dota merch with regards to heroes, the Dota logo, etc., but certainly there must be more flexibility if it's being sold through Valve's own store.

Secondly, even without third-party merchandise, TOs can contribute to the sale of existing merchandise in Valve store, and Valve can give them a cut. I don't believe the mechanism for this exists yet, but it should, and it should be part of the following approach.


I've got a golden ticket...

The great beauty of in-game tickets is the tournament is the product. With sponsors, cosmetics, merchandise...something else is the product. And that is never going to stop being the primary profit driver. But the tickets themselves need to be improved. We talked briefly earlier about bringing DTV up to par as a means to watch games. But there's much further to go than that.

Ideally, systems are created that drive revenue for each individual tournament without creating work for each individual tournament. This is what improvements to DTV broadcasting and download bring. This is the opposite of what cosmetics bring.

Outside of the broadcast itself, what have we got now?

Heroics: Drops are fucking abysmal right now. ABYSMAL. Heroics aren't even worth mentioning as a value bonus for ticket owners right now. Valve needs to really think about this.

OK! That was a short list. And the only item on it can be basically ignored.

Here's what we should have:

Fantasy: Create a fantasy league exclusively for ticket owners to premium tournaments. Have something like effigy drops for winners and high placement. Maybe you get a custom gold effigy block for #1. Do something with the trophy shelf, like highest fantasy placement and/or number of fantasy leagues placed/won. Let people buy extra entries to the fantasy league the way people buy compendium points. Have brackets, too. Give a drop of some kind as a reward for bracket correctness.

Twitch interactivity: In five years if we don't look back on Twitch today and think of it as extremely primitive they have missed massive opportunities. It's been almost two years since linking your Twitch and Steam accounts was introduced. Nothing's been done with it since. The original feature, heroic drops, has been nerfed to hell. Ticket owners could have an icon. Emotes. Their own chat channel. Much more if someone really wanted to work on it.

Golden tickets: Remember the price discrimination model. Convincing people to buy tickets is good. Giving people means/motive to spend more on a tournament improves on that. Past a point this is really all about prestige. That's the only reason we have compendium levels going up to 10,000. And that's not realistic for every tournament, but put in place systems by which EVERY tournament can give people with more money ways to spend it on pure prestige stuff. Got a ticket? Great. You get your DTV and your other stuff and a little ticket icon added to the top of your profile. Would you like to upgrade to a golden ticket? It'll cost the same as the ticket did in the first place. Now your ticket icon is gold. Now you get +1 on a trophy somewhere. Now you get an extra fantasy entry and automatically receive an effigy block stamped with the tournament's name. You look even cooler and sexier in Twitch chat and DTV chat. Maybe there's some shit we can't even think about because Valve is going to build a new site dedicated to out-of-client shit related to the competitive scene.

InterAPPtivity: (get it? I am clever). You know what sucks? Watching DTV on my TV and having to go over to my PC to unfuck it every game. You know what's amazing? Every Steam account can only be logged-in on one PC. You know what would be reasonably simple from an engineering perspective? Linking up a mobile/tablet app to your DTV experience. Give me a nice tablet interface to change perspectives. To view graphs. To switch games. To rewind. To view player profiles. Oh cool I can shop from here. Give TOs a cut of the revenue when people shop from the app while watching their tournament. There are huge possibilities here. The undeniably greatest thing about DTV is that, unless you have a shitty PC, the picture quality is fucking unimpeachible. It's an overwhelmingly better picture for your big living room TV. But your living room TV probably doesn't have your PC's mouse and keyboard attached to it. So work that angle. With a second screen, there's a lot there.


That's it.

That's all you have to do. All of the above. Twitch, Valve, TOs. A mere pittance of work. You also need to come up with some goddamned ideas. But here's what we've got:

  • Valve, make DTV better to watch
  • Valve, give up a little more of your ticket revenue
  • Valve, make merchandising easier for TOs
  • Valve, create serious added value to owning a ticket AROUND the competition
  • Valve, make some damned apps and let me control DTV from the kitchen or what the fuck ever
  • Valve, start incentivizing people driving traffic to your store and market (RIP Hattery)
  • Twitch, keep the pressure on. Your viewer experience is competing with Valve's solely by the grace of your broadcasters. Provide them better technology and more routes for monetization
  • Twitch, give ticket owners more of a boost when watching games on your site. This is beneficial for everyone.
  • Twitch, the organization of your website is fucking terrible and this includes how competitive is handled. More about this in a coming post.
  • Tournament organizers, suck less at sponsorships, and do better with the DTV tools you have now. I'm looking at you, Godz.
  • Everyone: ideate. Identify problems, think about where you want to be, and build a bridge.

Simple.


This is the simple problem with everything you suggested. It's more work and investment for everybody else other than the party that is complaining, the artists. Look at your list of actions: 6 of them are for Valve including one that is telling them to straight up hand out money, 3 of them are for Twitch, 1 for 3rd Party TO, and Zero for artist. Even the community who have no financial interest in the system are asked to come up with ideas. It seems that it is up to everybody else to make the system better for the artists.

Ironically, some of your suggestions would be excellent in the absence of hats. If hats weren't selling tickets, I can assure you that Valve would invest more into DotaTV in the ways you suggested to make the ticket more valuable. As of right now, it is simply not worthwhile for them to do so.

We never know though, Valve may be preparing something big with Spectating with their upcoming VR stuff. Also, I think the Steam Link will probably fix your desire for Apps to improve your TV watching experience.

FHDH
Profile Joined July 2014
United States7023 Posts
June 08 2015 04:42 GMT
#60
I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from with this response.

First, what makes you think only the artists are complaining? The original post here is LD saying "we have it hard too." Literally my entire post is focused on the need for TOs to have more ways to make money than hats. Lati dati everybody agrees that the current reliance on hats to support third-party tournaments is problematic. I love hats. I love hats that come with tournaments. But it's not a good system long-term to have that be the only way of driving ticket sales. It is, frankly, lazy.

Secondly, of course most of the suggested work is for Valve. Valve are the developers. They have the bulk of responsibility for what tools exist, and they get the lion's share of the rewards when people spend money on Dota2 digital goods. It's not asking them to "give away money" to ask that they go from keeping 62.5% of ticket/cosmetic revenue when a TO is doing a standard 25% contribution to 57.5. It's asking them to keep marginally less revenue - revenue that is being driven by the third parties, who are often stretched.

I quite clearly stated that the problems of the workshop economy are myriad and I wasn't going to address it from the artist's standpoint, I was merely going to try to figure out how to address the concerns from the TO perspective without making the issues the artists are dealing with worse. I said this quite clearly. And frankly I don't know what you think the artists can do. Art harder? Art less? They are already working with the system as it exists the best they can - or quitting it altogether. They cannot change the system.

Twitch? They have positioned themselves as the overwhelmingly dominant figure in western esports broadcasting. We have a right to ask them to treat this as a great responsibility. Saying they can improve their product is not something revolutionary nor is it some handout for artists - something my post wasn't even about.

And by "everybody" I actually meant the vested parties. But the community does care. I'm not a vested party and I have a lot of concern with this. I can talk about esports shit all damn day.

As far as Steam Link goes, it's not at all a replacement for my suggestion. Valve may or may not think it is, but it's really really not. The possibilities that exist with being able to link your existing touch-screen devices to your spectating experience are massive compared to basically creating a wireless triangle with your controller, TV, and PC.

You're right though: if hats weren't so successful right now Valve would have motivation to invest more into DTV. But they are missing an opportunity if they are not investing in DTV. I believe they are; frankly we don't know what they're doing but I know they are slowly working the problem, even if their goals are not as ambitious as I'd like them to be. And again, unlike cosmetics made unique for each tournament, improving DTV and the value of a ticket is a boost to all ticket sales. Artists are expensive. Engineers are also expensive. Unlike artists, though, engineers make systems. Systems can sell tickets too.
После драки кулаками не машут (Don't shake your fist when the fight is over)
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
PiGosaur Monday
00:00
#40
CranKy Ducklings211
EnkiAlexander 96
davetesta57
rockletztv 36
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 215
RuFF_SC2 144
Livibee 93
CosmosSc2 52
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 8109
MaD[AoV]33
Icarus 9
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm119
League of Legends
Cuddl3bear7
Counter-Strike
Coldzera 191
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox545
Mew2King107
Other Games
summit1g13415
shahzam1084
Day[9].tv929
ViBE236
Maynarde140
Trikslyr73
ROOTCatZ8
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3113
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH189
• OhrlRock 1
• Kozan
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• sooper7s
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift4364
Other Games
• Scarra1342
• Day9tv929
Upcoming Events
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
13h 56m
Replay Cast
21h 56m
The PondCast
1d 7h
OSC
1d 10h
WardiTV European League
1d 13h
Replay Cast
1d 21h
Epic.LAN
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Epic.LAN
3 days
CSO Contender
3 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
Online Event
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Esports World Cup
6 days
ByuN vs Astrea
Lambo vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs TBD
Solar vs Zoun
SHIN vs Reynor
Maru vs TriGGeR
herO vs Lancer
Cure vs ShoWTimE
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.