|
Imagine, you are cool as fogged and draft for NARv2. Team CoL do a surprise warlock 4th pick to focus heavily on teamfights in a ti-qualifier finals match. First you say f00k dis dead gaem & only have your 5th pick & ban left.....
![[image loading]](http://snag.gy/Vi9Or.jpg)
I would ban the bristleback and lastpick ursa. My retarded idea would be to prioritize an early game counter to upheaval, let ursa destroy tombstones and purge as many golems with two diffusal blades as i could. I would run shadow demon mid to prioritize a blinkdagger as a counter to upheaval and start the game with duallanes, viper(c)+lesrac(s) & ursa(c)+ witchdoctor(s). If Viper and Ursa both prioritize and find farm for diffusal blades & bkb's (11 and 13k itembuilds are hopefully doable), Complexity's highground attempt would have felt like the battle for helms deep! #scrubpubdoto
What would your 5th pick & ban be and how would you lane your draft?
|
I would ban weaver and pick tide
|
|
|
Why would you ban weaver?
|
United States47024 Posts
let ursa destroy tombstones
Your plan is to let a melee hero who can only engage with a Blink Dagger and has limited temporary damage buffs use that Blink Dagger and damage buffs to hit a Tombstone?
On May 29 2015 08:49 Birdie wrote:
Why would you ban weaver?
Probably because they played Weaver in the actual game, lol.
|
Ban either weaver or Antimage because I'm thinking they need carry, and I would probbably pick QoP. Mobility and good bursty teamfight with pure damage to knock down golems and invis squishy SK and Dazzle.
|
@TheYango yeah but if you don't have that knowledge, I doubt anyone would ban weaver in that situation. It's not exactly the most common of picks.
|
United States47024 Posts
On May 29 2015 13:56 Birdie wrote:
@TheYango yeah but if you don't have that knowledge, I doubt anyone would ban weaver in that situation. It's not exactly the most common of picks.
Weaver also isn't the only hero that abuses those weaknesses in NAR's teamcomp. If you ban the Weaver, they just take something else.
Weaver appears to be the ban because of how successful it was in the game, but there are a number of heroes that could have been equally effective.
|
I'd ban DP and pick storm and go aggro tri with lesh if they went weaver (which I doubt after a storm pick). Force the sk out of the jungle and win potentially all 3 lanes depending on what they last pick sounds nice. Ban storm pick qop would work as well. Dire has last pick, right?
Troll would be a very good alternative, carries bkb well, deals easily with tombstone and golem, synergizes with viper and gives an additional buffer for lesh. Deals badly with mobile heroes so they prolly should ban one. Can somewhat deal with wl mid or with UD in lane. I still think that Troll>Ursa in most situations.
Alternatives:
+ Show Spoiler +
Naix would be nice too, same reasoning, less synergy with the team, literally eats Col's frontline.
Sniper could be good as well. 6.84 and I recommend Troll and Sniper in the same post, wtf.
OD is good, beats Storm, Ember, Puck and QoP (does he still win vs QoP?) in case they pick it, beats WL and gives even more disruption in teamfights against epi. Does arcane orb still give bonus damage vs WL Golems? Deals relatively well with mobility heroes in general bc he can just imprison the mobility hero or the target.
On May 29 2015 08:49 Birdie wrote:
Why would you ban weaver?
Weaver is ok as a pick for col because NAR's only reliable way to deal with him is disruption+split earth combo and if weaver tackles the sd the sd cant wait for a good opportunity. Besides he has lots of synergy with dazzle and some with tombstone.
On May 29 2015 12:51 Saki [NETOGE] wrote:
Ban either weaver or Antimage because I'm thinking they need carry, and I would probbably pick QoP. Mobility and good bursty teamfight with pure damage to knock down golems and invis squishy SK and Dazzle.
I dont think that they need a carry, they can pick whatever they want with this lineup in terms of laning and 6.84 doesnt force people to pick carries anymore.
|
As a warlock picker: Warlock is good against heroes who gets stuck in upheaval and cant escape the golems while simultaneously dont have the power to just turn around and kill the golems easily.
Good examples: Axe, Viper, Razor, WK, Slardar, NS, Luna, Drow, DK, etc. And lots of supports obviously (although not as relevant since enemy supports often stay back and wont be in range or the main focus of you). All these heroes will get stuck in upheaval and have to accept the golems will probably kill you. They're dependent on their teammates helping out and interrupting upheaval. The less likely they are to build BKB the better.
Mainwhile hes bad (or less good) against heroes who can just escape it. Slark, AM, Morphling, Mirana, Weaver, Naix, Lycan, Riki, PA, PL, Void, Storm, etc. These heroes all have some way of getting out of upheaval.
Hes also less good against heroes who can just turn and kill the golems with high single target damage (and often lifesteal). Troll last patch was a perfect example, he could just kill them. Jugg with MoM can too. Ursa, Sven, TA, CLinkz while all in theory are vulnerable to the combo and cant get out of it, they can often just turn and focus golems and a way many other dont can. At least when they have BKB and some basic items. They require much less farm to be able to fight the golems.
And then theres of course the natural diffusal carriers which fucks him over. PL, Riki and maybe some more.
As for the draft, the warlock went up against Lesh, Viper, Beast cores. Thats a good matchup for the warlock, if not very good. BM and Viper are super vulnerable. Lesh can turn around and kill them at some point in the game with his AoE damage but for a large part of the early game hes very vulnerable too. And none of them have long range interrupts or build diffusals either.
|
Nice post kreb, helpfull for sure. But what would you pick and ban and how would you lane it? im curious what diabolical plan you would theorycraft
On May 29 2015 11:22 TheYango wrote:Your plan is to let a melee hero who can only engage with a Blink Dagger and has limited temporary damage buffs use that Blink Dagger and damage buffs to hit a Tombstone?
Haha, i love it when a plan comes together!  It's a draft challenge that happens alot in pubs too, where your team gets caught of guard during the drafting stage and fall into a trap. Then you try to salvage the situation and mix things up, so your team still has a shot at winning the game (with some luck).
What would your last pick and ban be and how would you lane it, Yango?
|
Ok, first things first:
Why be scared of the Warlock pick? It makes the line up a heavy teamfight one. So what do I want now not to happen, another Teamfighter/Teamfighting Carry.
Thats why i would ban Spectre as he profits most of the space his team could create and his teamfighting potential as soon as he got his Radiance.
Then one is looking for his own lastpick:
Till now made picks gotta get a little reshuffled i their positions. I would also put the SD in mid so he gets a fast aghanims, from the point he got it there will always be 2 Charges for the Golems of the Warlock and THIS problem is solved.
Then u want to counter the heavy magic teamfight abilities and a naix is looking really interessting. First thought first throw
One need a solo safelane farmer, cause i would put lesh,wd and viper in the Offlane. 4 greedy enemies and a jungle nearby to take some snacks?
Time for a Broodmother with a rightclick build. This would be my last pick
Teamitem focused i would let the viper get a Mek, build a Pipe asap and several glimmer capes.
Greetings
|
I'd ban Juggernaut for the carry role, and pick QoP. send QoP bottom to solo vs undying, mid Viper to hopefully get an early lead vs warlock, and aggro trilane with farming leshrac top.
|
On May 29 2015 16:54 Kreb wrote:
As a warlock picker: Warlock is good against heroes who gets stuck in upheaval and cant escape the golems while simultaneously dont have the power to just turn around and kill the golems easily.
Yup. Seriously, in that game they really lacked a hero who could find a way to disrupt upheaval if the team was caught out position.
I'm a scrub, but I think I would have take clock instead of bm in NAR's position.
|
While it's true saying weaver ban takes for granted the fact we have hindsight, it's not a bad ban. They'll probably pick a physical core. You have pretty bad lockdown, disrupt --> lesh stun is most reliable. Something that abuses that is good, and weaver has been a bit more common as of late, although to know that into particular would be hard.
|
whatever your picks and bans you cant win teamfights unless you are way ahead, so I would want to focus on having good splitpush and pickoff potential in the mid/lategame and trying to win the lanes to make sure they cant just 5 man your rax 20ish mins in.
so I would ban bristle and pick clinkz.
viper mid, clinkz solo safe, wd lesh sd off.
clinkz could try and farm fast orchid if they pick a mobile core last
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
