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Listen to the best guide/motivator in history: your own body
Physical stress:
If you were being punched on the arm by a random guy, you would take steps to make sure it stopped happening: either by moving away, or hitting back. These are solutions to the problem. It doesn't really seem logical to ignore the pain...you would do something about it.
Mental stress:
Unfortunately, although the methods of relieving physical stress/pain should carry over into the mental world, they don't. Instead of addressing our problems straight up (moving away/hitting back) we just stand there and try to numb ourselves. What are some common numbing tools?
Alcohol
TV
Web Surfing/watching sc2 streams
Drugs
Religion
Meditation
Food (overeating)
Reasoning away the stress (saying 'ah i didn't want it anyway' etc)
Most of these things are great for fun times: you would always drink with your friends if you're going out to town or maybe take drugs w them. But too often the side effect is numbing your emotional needs/wants in life, and distracting yourself from your failures.
I see 99% of people in either two categories (me included):
1. Constant numbing so they never have to feel sad about anything,
or
2. Crippling depression because they don't numb themselves, but also can't overcome their obstacles
I think the trick is to stop numbing yourself for a while, and really listen to your body to see what it wants. The fear of sadness/failure/depression kicks in: and this is the greatest method of self improvement known to man. If you are unhappy with yourself, you will know what you want to improve, and so you will work towards that.
My advice:
Take a break from anything that numbs your mind, and just start thinking/listening to yourself. Its there that you will find what you want to improve/do in life, and go from there...
be in category 3: Epic dude !! 
EDIT: also I think this is how people crack later in life/have midlife crises/explode: they have been numbing themselves for so long, and one day they really start listening to themselves and get overwhelmed with grief and depression.
I think you shouldn't let anything build up that long: cry regularly! wear your heart on your sleeve! Otherwise, you may be a ticking time bomb... (which is why Sheldon is more likely to become a mass murderer than Penny... lol)
 
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United States15275 Posts
Introspection often serves as intellectual masturbation instead of concrete change. This has always been the bane of psychotherapy, and doesn't change much for individual attempts at improvement.
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On February 03 2015 14:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Introspection often serves as intellectual masturbation instead of concrete change. This has always been the bane of psychotherapy, and doesn't change much for individual attempts at improvement.
It is much bigger than changing individual attempts at improvement...it is giving you some when you literally have none. Most people will shy away from their big questions in life: thinking of your university courses or which job you want always pales in comparison to questions like 'what should I have for breakfast??'
I think its nice to do nothing you usually do for fun for a while (computer, tv etc) and start to feel anxious and insecure about yourself...then you will see the areas that need improvement
EDIT:
Think of it like meditation, but with a twist. Meditation focuses on noticing thoughts and pushing them away, saying 'your thoughts are not you' etc. Try feeling your thoughts, they ARE you. If you're nervous/anxious/depressed about something, don't push it away/use numbers, but FEEL the pain. That will be your fuel. Then just use your rationality to make sure you don't go too far (don't stab the ex's bf etc...)
just listen to your mind, just like you would listen to your body if it was being punched. It will be your best guide
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Funny. I was just listening to Hemingway's The Gambler, the Nun and the Radio. Religion is the opium of the people, radio is the opium of the people, music is the opium of the people etc. Pretty interesting, and raises questions about what actually is improvement (when he talks about revolution, education, ignorance).
I think something he really gets at in that short story is that life is very painful and destitute, and we need these anesthetics because in the end they amount to our quality of life. Some are more effective, more helpful, and better lasting than others, but it's hard to come up with something that we don't do for basically these reasons. I think the only thing to moralize about it is that some of these things are essentially selfish, where becoming a more effective, more skillful human being might help others in addition to ourselves.
It's a deep quandary that really touches on the human condition and I don't think has such an easy answer as you present in the OP.
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Just thinking/listening to yourself doesn't seem to help if what you are numbing yourself from is thinking/listening to yourself.
There is no real one way to answer the question of how to improve. Although changing your perception of the world around you might be one way. That's difficult, though, because you don't want to change it so much that you are no longer depressed but instead dissociated from reality.
Even then. If something like group 3 is possible and solves the problem... odds are it's not clinical depression to start with.
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United States15275 Posts
On February 03 2015 15:19 firehand101 wrote:
It is much bigger than changing individual attempts at improvement...it is giving you some when you literally have none. Most people will shy away from their big questions in life: thinking of your university courses or which job you want always pales in comparison to questions like 'what should I have for breakfast??'
This is exactly the problem I just mentioned, except the scaling itself is the distraction.
On February 03 2015 15:19 firehand101 wrote:
just listen to your mind, just like you would listen to your body if it was being punched. It will be your best guide
The difference is that ego integrity is not an emergent property of the body.
On February 03 2015 23:01 Chef wrote:
I think something he really gets at in that short story is that life is very painful and destitute, and we need these anesthetics because in the end they amount to our quality of life. Some are more effective, more helpful, and better lasting than others, but it's hard to come up with something that we don't do for basically these reasons. I think the only thing to moralize about it is that some of these things are essentially selfish, where becoming a more effective, more skillful human being might help others in addition to ourselves.
Apparently charity itself is a form of selfishness, if neuroscience and meta-ethics have anything to say about it.
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On February 03 2015 14:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Introspection often serves as intellectual masturbation instead of concrete change. This has always been the bane of psychotherapy, and doesn't change much for individual attempts at improvement.
The formula of expectations ought to be reversed: it is difficult to change your nature with introspection, and impossible without it.
Yet I think Pascal was right: "Pride counterbalancing all miseries. Man either hides his miseries, or, if he disclose them, glories in knowing them." At the bottom of world-weary lethargy we are often propelled upwards by a rush of moral and creative energy. Jung calls it enantiodromia, and it may be vaguely described as a god-like feeling of transcending the moral limitations of society and men. In this excited frame of mind, pleasure, happiness and even life itself are voluntarily discarded as a new sense of excitement emerges from that thrill of liberation.
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On February 03 2015 23:33 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Apparently charity itself is a form of selfishness, if neuroscience and meta-ethics have anything to say about it.
Why do you engage in charity? It is not a selfless act. You don't do it for other people. You do it for yourself. Do it because God told you to do it? Is that helping others, or is it helping yourself by not angering God?
etc.
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On February 03 2015 23:33 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 23:01 Chef wrote:
I think something he really gets at in that short story is that life is very painful and destitute, and we need these anesthetics because in the end they amount to our quality of life. Some are more effective, more helpful, and better lasting than others, but it's hard to come up with something that we don't do for basically these reasons. I think the only thing to moralize about it is that some of these things are essentially selfish, where becoming a more effective, more skillful human being might help others in addition to ourselves. Apparently charity itself is a form of selfishness, if neuroscience and meta-ethics have anything to say about it.
Thx Seinfeld, I'll be sure to remember that. The point is that doing drugs all the time or some like behavior is probably purely selfish and makes you a burden on other people, while helping others is both self-serving and serves others, which other people happen to like because it means they get helped. BURP.
It can also be said that moderate use of things that make only you feel good have a component of serving others, because they put you in a good mood when you do get around to doing things for others and that can make you more effective.
Naturally when we discourage selfishness, we mean to discourage the kind of selfishness which makes someone ineffective at helping us.
edit: Yay MoltkeWarding!
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United States15275 Posts
On February 03 2015 23:47 MoltkeWarding wrote:
The formula of expectations ought to be reversed: it is difficult to change your nature with introspection, and impossible without it.
Yet I think Pascal was right: "Pride counterbalancing all miseries. Man either hides his miseries, or, if he disclose them, glories in knowing them." At the bottom of world-weary lethargy we are often propelled upwards by a rush of moral and creative energy. Jung calls it enantiodromia, and it may be vaguely described as a god-like feeling of transcending the moral limitations of society and men. In this excited frame of mind, pleasure, happiness and even life itself are voluntarily discarded as a new sense of excitement emerges from that thrill of liberation.
It's much easier to change your nature without introspection. In fact, it happens every second of every day. A lack of introspection means that the change will be subject to the whims of unrecognized forces.
Sure, why not? Lethargy is not really the normal human condition though. Probably just another example of WEIRD systematic bias.
On February 04 2015 00:00 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 23:33 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Apparently charity itself is a form of selfishness, if neuroscience and meta-ethics have anything to say about it. Why do you engage in charity? It is not a selfless act. You don't do it for other people. You do it for yourself. Do it because God told you to do it? Is that helping others, or is it helping yourself by not angering God?
Something more like "Charity performed out of empathy for the poor is, in most scenarios, indistinguishable from charity performed out of embracing the principle 'empathy for the poor'; ditto for #2 and "valuing the principle 'empathy for the poor' for the purpose of maintaining identity integrity". #3 is something everyone does anyway, but jumping from #1 to #3 is still unsavory to consider (unless you're an act utilitarian).
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On February 04 2015 02:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 23:47 MoltkeWarding wrote:
The formula of expectations ought to be reversed: it is difficult to change your nature with introspection, and impossible without it.
Yet I think Pascal was right: "Pride counterbalancing all miseries. Man either hides his miseries, or, if he disclose them, glories in knowing them." At the bottom of world-weary lethargy we are often propelled upwards by a rush of moral and creative energy. Jung calls it enantiodromia, and it may be vaguely described as a god-like feeling of transcending the moral limitations of society and men. In this excited frame of mind, pleasure, happiness and even life itself are voluntarily discarded as a new sense of excitement emerges from that thrill of liberation. It's much easier to change your nature without introspection. In fact, it happens every second of every day. A lack of introspection means that the change will be subject to the whims of unrecognized forces. Sure, why not? Lethargy is not really the normal human condition though. Probably just another example of WEIRD systematic bias.
In this context "change" is a transitive verb, and rightly so for this subject.
My thoughts on the OP advice as an armchair moraliste is as follows: the epicurean treatment for depression is more remarkable in what it withdraws from than what it advances into. To glut the lower appetites in compensation for the starvation of the higher appetites is in effect an abandonment of the more noble and innocent ambitions of the mind. This is usually temporary, but on occasion, or taken in cascade during the long progression of life, it could amount to a serious debasement of self and one's purpose in the world.
It seems to be to ethics what melodrama does for literature. At the end of the day, after the depressive's eating and drinking and whoring, his primary problems are unresolved, but his very method of coping presents the protagonist with a set of secondary problems to triumph over. After many tumultuous weeks, he dries his tears, rises up, congratulates himself upon his perseverance, and prays to heaven that he forgets why the ordeal began in the first place.
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On February 04 2015 02:29 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 00:00 felisconcolori wrote:On February 03 2015 23:33 CosmicSpiral wrote:
Apparently charity itself is a form of selfishness, if neuroscience and meta-ethics have anything to say about it. Why do you engage in charity? It is not a selfless act. You don't do it for other people. You do it for yourself. Do it because God told you to do it? Is that helping others, or is it helping yourself by not angering God? Something more like "Charity performed out of empathy for the poor is, in most scenarios, indistinguishable from charity performed out of embracing the principle 'empathy for the poor'; ditto for #2 and "valuing the principle 'empathy for the poor' for the purpose of maintaining identity integrity". #3 is something everyone does anyway, but jumping from #1 to #3 is still unsavory to consider (unless you're an act utilitarian).
I think that's where people embrace the concept of selfless altruism, although in general I don't think true selfless altruism exists. It's that the connotation of acting in a selfless manner for someone else is highly positive, compared to the idea that you're doing it primarily for your own reasons. (Possibly as a measure of maintaining the identity they wish to perceive themselves and project for others.) It is more comforting and builds a more positive self-image.
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On February 03 2015 23:01 Chef wrote:
Funny. I was just listening to Hemingway's The Gambler, the Nun and the Radio. Religion is the opium of the people, radio is the opium of the people, music is the opium of the people etc. Pretty interesting, and raises questions about what actually is improvement (when he talks about revolution, education, ignorance).
I think something he really gets at in that short story is that life is very painful and destitute, and we need these anesthetics because in the end they amount to our quality of life.
My whole argument is that this is an illusion: what appears to you to be 'quality of life' through these activities hides true happiness behind a veil of laughter. The laughter that comes with accomplishing something great and the laughter at a funny TV joke seem similar on the outside, but incomparable on the inside. I'm saying ignore the illusions: listen to your body to find the real thing
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This is exactly the problem I just mentioned, except the scaling itself is the distraction.
No, scaling itself is the exact problem you want to focus on, and whatever you do to ignore it within the next 30 seconds and beyond will be called a number
The difference is that ego integrity is not an emergent property of the body.
If you mean you can't trust your body to define good or bad, I find this irrelevant. Lusting after a girl thats already taken is not ethical, but if thats what you want then you should stop fooling yourself.
Apparently charity itself is a form of selfishness, if neuroscience and meta-ethics have anything to say about it.
I believe it is, with anonymous charity being one of the highest forms of selfishness ( see this curb your enthusiasm skit to see what i mean: + Show Spoiler + )
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On February 03 2015 23:27 felisconcolori wrote:
Just thinking/listening to yourself doesn't seem to help if what you are numbing yourself from is thinking/listening to yourself.
This is my main problem with the OP. There's a reason people choose escapism. I'd be a twitching ball of stress without movies/alcohol/novels/games.
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On February 04 2015 16:07 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 23:27 felisconcolori wrote:
Just thinking/listening to yourself doesn't seem to help if what you are numbing yourself from is thinking/listening to yourself.
This is my main problem with the OP. There's a reason people choose escapism. I'd be a twitching ball of stress without movies/alcohol/novels/games.
Escapism, in moderation, can be alright. Just about everyone does some form of escapism at times - getting lost in a book, enjoying a good movie, even watching eSports and feeling the connection with that glamorous world of champagne, championship checks, and twitch after-parties.
Taken to extreme, though, you get into dissociative (or worse, psychopathic) territories wherein your escape from reality impacts your ability to perceive and take part in the common reality. Perception, to me, is an important part of the cognitive modeling and mapping that helps to establish the framework we hang our consciousness on - perception of reality and perception of self can be incredibly powerful tools to address issues, but they are very difficult to change in such a way to reach positive outcomes. Which is why it's easy to say something like "It's not that bad, cheer up" because it might be easy to change perception to look at the positive side of things for some people, but for the clinical (aka, diagnosable) populations it can require truly radical changes in thought and habit that may be difficult if not impossible to achieve without some form of medication.
Having said that, I'm going to go binge watch some light hearted anime. Ja ne.
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On February 04 2015 16:07 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2015 23:27 felisconcolori wrote:
Just thinking/listening to yourself doesn't seem to help if what you are numbing yourself from is thinking/listening to yourself.
This is my main problem with the OP. There's a reason people choose escapism. I'd be a twitching ball of stress without movies/alcohol/novels/games.
This is OPs point bro:
Stop thinking of that state as a twitching ball of stress, and think of it as your primary source of life and motivation. When you're in that state, see what comes to your mind and see what you think about. Don't ignore that. It's what you and your body wants. LISTEN TO YOURSELF. THAT STRESS STATE IS GOOOOOD
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On February 06 2015 07:09 firehand101 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2015 16:07 Scarecrow wrote:On February 03 2015 23:27 felisconcolori wrote:
Just thinking/listening to yourself doesn't seem to help if what you are numbing yourself from is thinking/listening to yourself.
This is my main problem with the OP. There's a reason people choose escapism. I'd be a twitching ball of stress without movies/alcohol/novels/games. This is OPs point bro: Stop thinking of that state as a twitching ball of stress, and think of it as your primary source of life and motivation. When you're in that state, see what comes to your mind and see what you think about. Don't ignore that. It's what you and your body wants. LISTEN TO YOURSELF. THAT STRESS STATE IS GOOOOOD
No it makes me incapable of doing what I need to do. It's not good, I need to get shit done not be growing stress tumours.
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On February 09 2015 20:19 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2015 07:09 firehand101 wrote:On February 04 2015 16:07 Scarecrow wrote:On February 03 2015 23:27 felisconcolori wrote:
Just thinking/listening to yourself doesn't seem to help if what you are numbing yourself from is thinking/listening to yourself.
This is my main problem with the OP. There's a reason people choose escapism. I'd be a twitching ball of stress without movies/alcohol/novels/games. This is OPs point bro: Stop thinking of that state as a twitching ball of stress, and think of it as your primary source of life and motivation. When you're in that state, see what comes to your mind and see what you think about. Don't ignore that. It's what you and your body wants. LISTEN TO YOURSELF. THAT STRESS STATE IS GOOOOOD No it makes me incapable of doing what I need to do. It's not good, I need to get shit done not be growing stress tumours.
You're both right - a lot of it depends, physiologically and psychologically, on the amount and type of stress. With no stress, there can be a lack of motivation and drive. With too much stress, there can be complete paralysis. Good stress can promote better functioning. Bad stress can cause you to cease functioning.
That's a gross oversimplification. But it is a grey area. Individuals respond differently to stress in a variety of ways, from finding a way to persevere and achieve beyond their expectations all the way to (from personal experience) lying nearly comatose and unable to move, hounded by hallucinatory demons and dark, suicidal depression.
So yeah, there's a spectrum here, and for some there might be some benefit, and for others, it's going to be a bad idea.
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