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ItsMeDomLee
Canada2732 Posts
No. None of you take that bet because C9 getting invited is practically guaranteed. As is Secret, as is EG, VG, IG, LGD etc etc etc etc. If you're burned out from playing too much, play less. Are there too many (premier) tournaments? Maybe. But don't feed BS about how you HAVE to play them. Most teams don't even practice so these tournament matches are essentially their practice. Dear lord. | ||
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Humunuk
Estonia132 Posts
On December 16 2014 17:59 R3IGN wrote: What Dota2 needs is a regulatory authority that decides what tournaments will be held next season and for what level. . Thats the most stupidest thing ever. Having a dictator ship to regulate something means shit will be produced even more and someone out of dota2 scene will get rich. Teams need to realize that they don't need to play every tournament, they don't need to increase their chances by improving quantity over quality. What Envy here is doing is talking against himself, if you play too much, you turn into "i don't care", means you will be only choosing quantity over quality. Now imagine sir Envy, you are participating only few tournaments and to make sure you win qualifers you will be motivated to learn the opponent, to analyze replays and so on, because you have to do it, just like in "old" days. If you choose to participate as many tournaments as possible (in hopes of raising your chances to qualify) - things turn what you just said they turn into - loss of motivation, over saturation etc which in the end decreases your chances to actually qualify for a tournament or play dota2 at all. Secret has it right, look they even have time for matchmaking and streaming! Every team has to realize that! And - with so many tournaments you can even choose where the participation vs skill rate is lower than yours and cash in some easy prize money. In the end - you will be probably invited to TI anyway where the "real showdown" happens. So tl;dr? Over saturation of tournaments is good - more money to more teams, if only teams would start looking it that way and not bite more they can chew. (Allthough what my analyze/discussion is not taking into account is the paycheck players get) | ||
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Demand2k
Norway875 Posts
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innociv
United States346 Posts
But on a serious note, is it really the number of tournaments that's a problem? 2-3 LAN finals seems fair enough for something that is someone's job. The problem seems more all the online games that lead up to those. Why can't tournaments just use team's recent performance from other tournaments for seeding and half the qualifier spots? http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/rankings#team Have Newbee and VG play vs each other for a spot. C9 and EG for another. Secret and whoever else is top in europe for another. Then let everyone else play in qualifiers if they want instead of making those teams play 7-15 matches. Starladder is like 3 or 4 times a year now, isn't it? Why don't they just reinvite the top 3 teams from last season? The problem is all the pointless qualifier and seeding matches people have to play. Why does c9 need to play EG for seeding 3 times for 3 different tournaments in the same month? It's just silly, and makes watching top teams play less exciting when you see them in all these pointless qualifier or seeding matches. Online seeding matches just shouldn't be done most of the time. On LAN they can be nice. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On December 16 2014 18:16 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Just don't play in as many tournaments then. Envy's "reasoning" for why teams are forced to play is complete bullshit. Would anyone here bet 1000 dollars that C9 won't get a direct invite if they only play in 50% of the upcoming tournaments leading up to TI? No. None of you take that bet because C9 getting invited is practically guaranteed. As is Secret, as is EG, VG, IG, LGD etc etc etc etc. If you're burned out from playing too much, play less. Are there too many (premier) tournaments? Maybe. But don't feed BS about how you HAVE to play them. Most teams don't even practice so these tournament matches are essentially their practice. Dear lord. I don't think this is the case. If we look at TI4, there were 6 European teams present: c9, NaVi, Alliance, mouz, Empire and Fnatic. After TI4 everyone had roster changes, and then we have new teams for all of these organizations (except Mouz) as well as Secret and Team Tinker, and some potential challengers. With c9's online playing conditions their qualification to events from EU qualifiers isn't always guaranteed: they've even failed to qualify to SL (though got in after Chinese teams dropped out) and Summit (got in through the redemption vote). If you originally make the decision to just skip a bunch of events, you also take the risk that you either don't qualify partly because of your ping issues, or that you just play poorly at the LAN or have bad bracket draw, and suddenly your results are few and extremely mediocre. It's easy to say now that EG, Secret and c9 have been the top3 western teams after TI and they can afford to skip events. How about TT? Or NaVi? Or VP.P? Or VP? Or Empire who seems to have won a few games the last few days? How do you separate these teams from one another? They all want to prove themselves. Right after TI nothing was guaranteed for c9 either, they had to play events so that they guarantee they get the results they need. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 16 2014 15:09 Comeh wrote: One of the issues right now is that there is no end to the grind, and the only end in sight is TI, and that ends rather quickly (and hype will fade if there is no build up to it, and right now there is only fading enthusiasm in the game). Oversaturation is terrible, as it leads to player burnout. It leads to caster burnout. Tournament burnout. Viewership burnout. It can kill games. See, I don't really quite agree with the causal relationship you're implying here. Oversaturation is a phase. It's the culmination of a "wild west" phase of the game's competitive growth, where there's sufficient interest from many parties to be involved in the game, but no structure in their interactions, so every team and every tournament is just kind of doing their own thing. Eventually the game needs to move past this. Teams need to get together and figure out what's best for themselves as a whole, tournaments need to step up and meet the needs of the teams and players. If a game dies in this phase, it's not because of the oversaturation--that part is fundamentally necessary--it's that the game failed to grow out of this phase because the involved parties didn't find a way to build something constructive out of the chaotic state. | ||
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Corgi
United States408 Posts
Alright real talk, I think the cast quality in DotA on average is quite low in comparison to other competitive games. Casters in DotA have a low understanding of the game and not only that but of the gaming situation as well. Real talk. EE is correct. Most casters in Dota 2 don't really get what is going on in the game other than X is rotating/ganking oh wow hes dead yay. They don't ask or explain why a player is prioritizing X item. Why they use X skill build. Why they are doing what they are doing in a lane. The bottom line is that casting in Dota 2 has hit a plateau where most casters are content with casting what they see but not casting what they know. Merlini is an exception because of his career as a player. But he also has to cast in the backseat because there better play by play casters out there like LD. The other issue is that dead time that could be spent talking about strategy to make the game more intersesting is instead filled with JOKES and BANTER which is interesting to the caster but not the viewer in general. They just don't know how to make the game seem more interesting by explaining what's going on and instead fill it with the stuff that they think makes themselves interesting. See the problem here? Other esports. Starcraft 2 casting at the highest tier know exactly why the player is doing X build and how it applies to the map. CSGO casters usually know what strategy is being run by the team and mix that into the casting as well as how weapons are being applied effectively or economy is being prioritized. League however suffers from similar issues that EE pointed out (that many have pointed out but sadly the fanboying of casters drowns the crap out of critics on Reddit). In league, the casters are usually shoutcasting/color casting just like Dota 2, so the casting level is similar to Dota 2 in that sense, They aren't telling you in depth how league strategy is utilized as much as they should, why items are being built, why they drafted that composition. I don't know why people defend casters other than they are fans because of the Dota Personality. EE is right. Casting can improve by miles and it has slowed down greatly since several months before TI4. They either are too content with their dota celebrity status or simply don't know that they could be better. Both 2GD Studio and BTS have casters who are just clueless at times. Their "5k" mmr some of their casters brag about don't seem to match their actual game knowledge. Similarly, Hearthstone also suffers from a lack of analytical insightful casting but then again its a card game with variable strategy and lots just depending on draw. Maybe I'm being too harsh. EE, am I being to harsh? Casting isn't easy but they don't seem to realize they're at this fork in the road where either casting can be a big time gig (way bigger than what it is now) or it can be the not very professional inconsistency that it is right now. | ||
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broodbucket
Australia963 Posts
On December 16 2014 16:52 Steveling wrote: Pro athletes train harder and play more. Sry EE-chan but your thesis is pretty bad. And he's in a team that most people would consider top 3, at least top 5 in the world. Surely that's a problem? If he was in a tier 2 team then sure. | ||
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
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Ler
Germany543 Posts
Most of what he said already applies to T2-3 level couz even there are million of tournaments ;D | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
On December 16 2014 18:44 loklok wrote: After reading such a post it feels like after decades of professional esport development resulting in huge esports events, price money and organizations who can generate profit based on that, the one group of persons which did not evolve are the professional players. I'm sure some of the players are grateful with the situation they're in. EE is just a spoiled kid. "oh no, I have to travel around the world too much to play videogames in front of thousands of fans, woe is me." There's hundreds or even thousands of people on this site who would love to be in EE's position. Let's make a blog and tell them how bad my life is. I have very little sympathy for his rant, totally on ixmike's side here. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On December 16 2014 18:16 ItsMeDomLee wrote: Just don't play in as many tournaments then. Envy's "reasoning" for why teams are forced to play is complete bullshit. Would anyone here bet 1000 dollars that C9 won't get a direct invite if they only play in 50% of the upcoming tournaments leading up to TI? Would anyone here have bet 1000 dollars that EG wouldn't get a direct invite for TI3 six months before the invites were handed out? If you don't play a couple of tournaments and then flop in one or two that you DO play, yes, your TI invite may very well be jeopardized. On December 16 2014 18:51 Laurens wrote: There's hundreds or even thousands of people on this site who would love to be in EE's position. Let's make a blog and tell them how bad my life is. No, there's thousands of people who have fantasies about being in EE's position, but are completely out of touch when it comes to the reality of the whole experience and just how shitty it can get. I'd bet you anything you want that if those thousands were given a chance to live the "progamer dream" (lol) for a few weeks, at the end pretty much all of them would say "yeah fuck this shit". Progaming is a shitty career with shitty payout and shitty conditions for the vast majority of players. It's pretty much constant stress and grind, the game doesn't feel as fun any more, and the team game dynamic and inter-personal relationships make it even harder. | ||
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MadaoStream
Greece68 Posts
also i hope @luminus stop slacking off his butt and get his shit together cuz after his trips on the summer he is so lost in the new patch hope to get better , also i think nowdays the best caster that doesnt slack or watches lot of games and know is Draskyl the man who denied TI4 invitation to cast as he said to leave it to the pros . | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
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loklok
Germany161 Posts
On December 16 2014 19:06 Talin wrote: Would anyone here have bet 1000 dollars that EG wouldn't get a direct invite for TI3 six months before the invites were handed out? If you don't play a couple of tournaments and then flop in one or two that you DO play, yes, your TI invite may very well be jeopardized. Well thats kind of the nature of a competitive environment. If a team is active and showing good results then it should be preferred over a team which doesn't. Success kind of implies that you get burned out, otherwise you would not be able to distance yourself from the mass. If you lack motivation then you should not be in a top tier team in the first place. | ||
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Kraznaya
United States3711 Posts
On December 16 2014 19:13 Laurens wrote: I'd take that bet any day. if being in his position is so easy, why havent you done it yet | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4541 Posts
On December 16 2014 19:16 Kraznaya wrote: if being in his position is so easy, why havent you done it yet It requires balls of steel to give up on education/job and go pro dota. Alas I don't have them. I respect EE a lot for making the jump and going pro. I do not respect him for this blog. | ||
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GlavanizeR
United States6 Posts
About the tournaments - Hell yeah, there is a tournament going at almost every given time, WTF is that ? The way that the SC2 system works is much better, although not perfect. Trying to use a system that is already used in some sport is probably the best way to organize the messed world of DotA. Basketball or Soccer(Football) systems with a league going throughout the year is not applicable, because of the amount of different organizations trying to host events, so basically the best type of system to use is the one used by the ATP(Tennis). Just like in the world of tennis, DotA has events in different parts of the world, with different organizations(The Summit, i-League). The events should be divided in tiers - tier 1 event, tier 2, etc, just like are the events in tennis - Wimbledon, Rolland Garros, AO and USO and there are the secondary events ATP1000 tournaments, ATP500, ATP250 and challengers. The players themselves should decide and stood their ground what events they should play in and what they should not, just like Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal cant play all tournaments in tennis, most of the teams shouldnt be able to play in each event(EG and Starladder). There need to be 3 or 4 BIG events throughout the year, not as big as the International, but big enough to have larger prize pools and pro casters, that take time and preparation from the teams and that will actually make the players want the championship. Now it is a bunch of tournaments that you either win some money or not. Starladder, Dota Pit, XMG Captains Draft, i-League, masters there are numerous events and qualifiers. In those 3-4 events all teams should gather and find out who the best is atm, just like it is in tennis and one big tournament to end it as The International. Having some tournaments where there is only west teams or east teams is just pointless, the hype is not there anymore, things are starting to blend and as EE said - no one gives a fuck. There is nothing wrong with small tournaments, let them, but let 3-4 BIG ones + The International be the main events. Also the other main thing that ruins the game for me is that the teams are constantly playing each other. Its like watching Real Madrid - Barcelona everyday, will it be fun ? No ! We start to know the teams better than they know themselves. With all the content going on, things will be burnt out quickly and DotA as an esport is getting ruined. About the casters, they are ubelievably unprofessional at times, I dont have a lot of games of DotA and I know a lot more about it than them. It is good to be prepared guys put some more effort in the thing that you are doing. | ||
Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
casting is a valid point; casters can definitely be better. people like sunsfan are funny but have almost zero analytical value. that's okay but probably should try and balance the banter with solid casting a bit better. look overall; more tournaments is good for the scene in general. there is a balance of supply and demand and soon enough the number of tournaments will reach a roughly stable schedule and number. fans will spend less money per tournament and they will begin to reconsider their strategies and priorities. you're complaining way too early and way too much. | ||
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