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This weekend at Blizzcon the proposed changes for LotV multiplayer were revealed.
I watched the Terran update video and saw:
-New unit - Herc
-New unit - Cyclone
-Banshee buff, added range and speed
-Thors can repair themselves
-Siege Tanks can be picked up in Siege Mode
-Battlecruisers can FRICKIN TELEPORT! Sick.
Cool. They want mech to be viable and added some micro potential. Sweet.
Then I watched the Zerg update:
-New unit -Ravager
-New unit -Lurker! Sweet, I guess Blizzard did listen to the fans
-Nydus worm buff
-New Infestor ability
Cool. Zerg now has some new options vs. bio/Zealots and a way to break down forcefields. And they've expanded Nydus usage (like fans asked) and buffed the Infestor (like fans asked).
And finally, Protoss:
-New unit Disruptor
-Immortal Nerf
-Tempest Nerf
-Warp Prism buff
-Stasis ability for the Oracle
-Carrier Buff (w00t)
To say I was disappointed by the Protoss changes revealed at Blizzcon would be like calling WoL era Infestor/Brood Lord "a bit strong." A total understatement. But then I heard about these changes as well:
-Warpgate nerf - units take twice as long to warp in and 200% damage while doing so
-Time Warp nerf -it starts small and grows to full size, making it much easier to dodge
-Photon Overcharge won't shoot up
What the what? While Terran and Zerg were busy drooling over their new toys, units and features that at least appeared to be the product of developers wanting to make the game more exciting, Protoss players were essentially left with a balance patch and an IOU for another new unit somewhere along the line. Even the new unit they did introduce seems devoid of all thought - it's like they designed the unit 2 days before Blizzcon.
Dev #1 "What's Protoss getting?"
Dev #2 "I don't know, but we don't have much time. How about we take the Mothership Core unit model, give it a slightly more beach ball look, and make it explode as an AoE effect."
Dev #1 "But aren't you worried that Protoss already has enough AoE?"
Dev #2 "Whatever."
Dev #1 "Don't they need another unit?"
Dev #2 "Meh, let's avoid talking about it if we can."
It's absolutely clear that ZERO play testing was done as well, because if you watched any LotV gameplay you'll see that 2 pros playing in Archon mode were basically unable to hit anything with this unit throughout an entire series.
What is sad is that Blizzard isn't taking the same approach with Protoss as it is with the other two races. They're not introducing wild and crazy ideas first and then figuring out how to balance them later. What if the Motership core could release a fleet of interceptors a la Independence Day? What if it had a giant fucking laser that could one shot a building every 3 minutes? What if we brought back the Reaver (people seem to like that one). What if we gave Immortals Blink?
Do these ideas sound a bit broken? Yes of course. But no more broken than the Cyclone. Or fucking teleporting Battlecruisers. OR BURROW MOVE BANELINGS.
Instead, they're trying to cater to a community full of balance whiners and Protoss haters. Protoss is the race that everyone loves to hate. Whenever I queue up on ladder I'm instantly reminded of that fact. No skill race. EZ A-move. Etc.
Makes me feel a bit like this guy:
![[image loading]](http://www.gaff.tv/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Mario-Balotelli-why-always-me.png)
The negativity of the community is actually beginning to influence the design of the game. Terran and Zerg units are being designed with a full creative license. The new units are cool! (I really like the early game Herc micro in conjunction with the Reaper) The Cyclone looks broken as fuck really fun to play with and I'm sure they can tweak the damage/range to an appropriate level. Lurkers are going to be tons of fun to play and they could actually make Roach/Hydra not an all-in composition vs. bio once you add Ravagers in.
But the approach towards Protoss seems to be one of "let's not piss anyone off here." Carrier buffs are something the whole community can agree on. They've been discussed at length on TL and frankly they could be included in HotS. Stasis is very... blah. It was in Brood War nobody will really oppose it. The Disruptor? Well rather than showing it off they spend half the video discussing how micro can negate its effects and somehow justifying its existence. Same with the Immortal.
My poor Protoss heart aches. I want to feel loved. I want to feel like I'm one of 3 races. Instead I just feel like the redhead step-child of the SC2 family.
Can we please stop hating on Protoss so much and actually encourage the development team to put forward some interesting ideas?
 
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
From what I heard, there are other changes in the works for Protoss that Blizzard simply weren't comfortable or ready to share at Blizzcon. To echo people more sensible than myself, I think we should wait for the closed beta to come around before we draw any hasty conclusions about how badly Blizzard are treating Protoss.
As for their apparent attitude, it is hardly strange that they would act more cautious when announcing planned changes for Protoss than the other two races. I feel like there still is an ingrained hate for Protoss in the Starcraft community that resurfaces at various times when a Protoss player wins in a way people think he shouldn't be. Although that hate has somewhat switched to Terran recently, sentry drops and the various Protoss cheeses are still considered appalling and "easy" wins. The "Power of Protoss" meme exists for a reason, whether or not there is actually basis to it. Blizzard are apparently very careful about pissing off the SC community these days, so it makes sense from that perspective.
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It's absolutely clear that ZERO play testing was done as well, because if you watched any LotV gameplay you'll see that 2 pros playing in Archon mode were basically unable to hit anything with this unit throughout an entire series.
Yes, because two professionals, with excellent control, are completely indicative of how this will play out whenever Blizz actually opens up the beta. Complaining about things now, is like complaining about your dinner at a restaurant the second after you put the order in.
Things will change, and nothing is remotely set in stone.
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thanks for posting this blog. after blizzcon i felt completely de-hyped and didn´t even know why. i think you got the point.
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Zealously thanks for your insight. I really hope they have more planned changes / additions and that they're a bit more creative.
@ThomasjServo -my complaint isn't so much the balance of the unit/changes but rather how uninspired they feel. I know the Terran and Zerg changes are probably super broken but at least I'm hyped about them and I know Blizzard will nerf anything that is too strong. For Protoss I feel like Blizzard were more concerned about addressing community hate and put less time into designing fun, interesting units.
I enjoyed the tournament but I was left with a really bitter feeling of Protoss hate again after Blizzcon. I hope they can make the game exciting for us Protoss players again... There's nothing like being the weakest AND most hated on race at the same time...
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On November 11 2014 03:12 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +It's absolutely clear that ZERO play testing was done as well, because if you watched any LotV gameplay you'll see that 2 pros playing in Archon mode were basically unable to hit anything with this unit throughout an entire series. Yes, because two professionals, with excellent control, are completely indicative of how this will play out whenever Blizz actually opens up the beta. Complaining about things now, is like complaining about your dinner at a restaurant the second after you put the order in. Things will change, and nothing is remotely set in stone.
Everybody knows things will change.
That doesn't really affect how, at the reveal of the protoss themed version of SC2, everybody else got free candy and protoss got a razor blade in their apple.
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Would you rather have crazy shit in the alpha that doesn't make it into the actual game (ultra charge, bane burrow move) or less crazy shit that makes it to the game (MSC, Oracle)?
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On November 11 2014 03:59 OtherWorld wrote:
Would you rather have crazy shit in the alpha that doesn't make it into the actual game (ultra charge, bane burrow move) or less crazy shit that makes it to the game (MSC, Oracle)?
I'd rather have developers approaching Protoss equally to Terran and Zerg without having to answer to a community full of haters.
Yes I think self-healing Thors are a ridiculous concept. Yes I think picking up tanks in Siege Mode is bullshit. But I like that Blizzard is trying new things. I was excited when I saw that video. That video had an "ooooooh" factor. When the Protoss video came out I felt a bit... betrayed. That video had an "oh, of course they would nerf Protoss..." feeling to it.
I want to see Blizzard introduce crazy, radical, fun new ideas for Protoss without having to worry about what people will say. Blizzard will balance it in the end anyway.
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On November 11 2014 04:05 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 03:59 OtherWorld wrote:
Would you rather have crazy shit in the alpha that doesn't make it into the actual game (ultra charge, bane burrow move) or less crazy shit that makes it to the game (MSC, Oracle)? I'd rather have developers approaching Protoss equally to Terran and Zerg without having to answer to a community full of haters. Yes I think self-healing Thors are a ridiculous concept. Yes I think picking up tanks in Siege Mode is bullshit. But I like that Blizzard is trying new things. I was excited when I saw that video. That video had an "ooooooh" factor. When the Protoss video came out I felt a bit... betrayed. That video had an "oh, of course they would nerf Protoss..." feeling to it. I want to see Blizzard introduce crazy, radical, fun new ideas for Protoss without having to worry about what people will say. Blizzard will balance it in the end anyway.
Ah yeah I get your point. Well I think Zealously said it all then
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I do think the Immortal shield activation, the Tempest movement speed buff and new ability, and the new unit all give Protoss some more micro potential and are good for the game. These will all help go against the stigma of Protoss being the "a-move race".
However, the nerfs to the basic Protoss design from HotS is going to need some compensation, and a new unit would certainly not hurt. I'm sure Blizz has some good things in store for you, my Protoss brothers  don't get too down. This is going to be your expansion, after all - they're just saving the best reveals for last.
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Austria24422 Posts
The warpgate nerf is mindblowing to me. They're basically introducing this absolutely monumental nerf to the core protoss macro mechanic and they're giving absolutely nothing back to compensate for it. At least nothing is announced right now.
You could implement the WG changes in HotS and protoss wouldn't exist in tournaments. Then add the overcharge nerf, the new units, the unit tweaks, etc.etc. and you're left with... well, nothing. They will HAVE to make gigantic changes to protoss units or introduce something new, otherwise there won't be any protoss. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore with this. But protoss has to be able to do that, otherwise there is no way to win.
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Assuming that the WG nerf is well thought-out (I mean, you don't just say: hey let's change the most basic mechanics of a race because we have nothing better to show, right? ...right?!), they must have something in the back for the protoss race. It could be a complete revamp of a standard unit - think campaign Zealots with aoe - or something of that scale. Otherwise, I don't know why they would put this idea out there, especially in conjunction with the other nerfs changes.
Might be wishful thinking on my part though...
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On November 11 2014 04:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The warpgate nerf is mindblowing to me. They're basically introducing this absolutely monumental nerf to the core protoss macro mechanic and they're giving absolutely nothing back to compensate for it. At least nothing is announced right now.
You could implement the WG changes in HotS and protoss wouldn't exist in tournaments. Then add the overcharge nerf, the new units, the unit tweaks, etc.etc. and you're left with... well, nothing. They will HAVE to make gigantic changes to protoss units or introduce something new, otherwise there won't be any protoss. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore with this. But protoss has to be able to do that, otherwise there is no way to win.
People are seriously overestimating the importance of units taking double damage warping in. You simply warp in out of range of actively firing units. It's that easy. The only type of change to warping in that would've justified buffing gateway units overall would've been a cooldown increase to become higher than the build times from gateways.
Also, the stasis orb is a really cool ability. Don't think for a second you won't be seeing oracles used at all stages of every matchup now.
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Austria24422 Posts
On November 11 2014 05:45 Pontius Pirate wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 04:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The warpgate nerf is mindblowing to me. They're basically introducing this absolutely monumental nerf to the core protoss macro mechanic and they're giving absolutely nothing back to compensate for it. At least nothing is announced right now.
You could implement the WG changes in HotS and protoss wouldn't exist in tournaments. Then add the overcharge nerf, the new units, the unit tweaks, etc.etc. and you're left with... well, nothing. They will HAVE to make gigantic changes to protoss units or introduce something new, otherwise there won't be any protoss. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore with this. But protoss has to be able to do that, otherwise there is no way to win. People are seriously overestimating the importance of units taking double damage warping in. You simply warp in out of range of actively firing units. It's that easy. The only type of change to warping in that would've justified buffing gateway units overall would've been a cooldown increase to become higher than the build times from gateways. Also, the stasis orb is a really cool ability. Don't think for a second you won't be seeing oracles used at all stages of every matchup now.
Your opponent can force you to warp in directly into a fight. I could go through hundreds of scenarios where it's necessary to warp in units right into the line of fire to buy time for your main army/reinforcements to get there. In every matchup. Be it drops in TvP, mutas in pvz, prism drops in pvp, or a ton of other scenarios where the correct way to play is to warp directly into a fight.
People who say "just warp in somewhere safe" have never played protoss. You also forgot that units take almost twice the time to warp in now. By the time your units are done warping in at safe distance, your entire mineral line/all your tech buildings/whatever they target is gone.
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More so than any balance issues I'm just concerned about the negative impact that community hate will have on the design of the Protoss race.
Keep in mind the Tempest was basically DESIGNED to shoot air. Now it's being modified to not shoot air? What??
Do warping in Protoss units really need to take 4x as much damage as they currently do? (2x warp time 2x damage). Or is that just because enough people got Man Trained in Platinum league and bitched on TL?
Does Protoss REALLY need yet another unit that requires an active ability? Is Protoss really so EZ to play that every single unit should need its own control group? Stalkers Blink, Sentries FF and Guardian Shield, Immortals activating their shields "at the right time" disruptors being activated in advance at the precise time required to make them detonate within range of anything.
These are all individual abilities of individual units that need to be activated. It's not like Terran selecting all their bio, pressing T and stutter stepping (and having the Medivacs magically follow everything around). Protoss seems like it will be really fucking hard to play when they're done with it.... and all because of a perceived notion that it isn't jus as hard as the other races.
What Protoss needs is a good fighting unit that doesn't require a special ability and doesn't rely on AoE support... one that you can just use effectively and can get extra mileage out of microing. But the community will never allow that.
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On November 11 2014 05:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 05:45 Pontius Pirate wrote:On November 11 2014 04:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The warpgate nerf is mindblowing to me. They're basically introducing this absolutely monumental nerf to the core protoss macro mechanic and they're giving absolutely nothing back to compensate for it. At least nothing is announced right now.
You could implement the WG changes in HotS and protoss wouldn't exist in tournaments. Then add the overcharge nerf, the new units, the unit tweaks, etc.etc. and you're left with... well, nothing. They will HAVE to make gigantic changes to protoss units or introduce something new, otherwise there won't be any protoss. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore with this. But protoss has to be able to do that, otherwise there is no way to win. People are seriously overestimating the importance of units taking double damage warping in. You simply warp in out of range of actively firing units. It's that easy. The only type of change to warping in that would've justified buffing gateway units overall would've been a cooldown increase to become higher than the build times from gateways. Also, the stasis orb is a really cool ability. Don't think for a second you won't be seeing oracles used at all stages of every matchup now. Your opponent can force you to warp in directly into a fight. I could go through hundreds of scenarios where it's necessary to warp in units right into the line of fire to buy time for your main army/reinforcements to get there. In every matchup. Be it drops in TvP, mutas in pvz, prism drops in pvp, or a ton of other scenarios where the correct way to play is to warp directly into a fight. People who say "just warp in somewhere safe" have never played protoss. You also forgot that units take almost twice the time to warp in now. By the time your units are done warping in at safe distance, your entire mineral line/all your tech buildings/whatever they target is gone.
On the flip side when I play vs protoss in late game and they warp in 18 zealots in my main, zip the warp prism to my 3rd and warp in 18 more.. It's incredibly difficult to stop these kind of harassment with a handful of marines. A damage/time increase to units warping in would definitely help defend from my perspective.
I don't disagree with you.. but I also think there is a middle ground here. There is a lot of time to work out the kinks... I just hope Protoss gets another unit , I don't like how Blizz always introduce several units but always scale back(shredder, ultra charge, warhound etc.)... I hope they just keep making more!
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You know what's funny? When we (my buddies and I) saw the gameplay videos for all three races, our instant reaction was (Z > T > P). In terms of content, I think pretty much everyone reacted similarly.
But then the exhibition matches roll around and it turns out Blizzard downtuned the Zerg units about as much as they've done every single alpha/beta, meaning to the point where they're all pretty pathetic (Lurker, corruptor, I'm looking at you). Even the nydus worm.
But what gets me the most is the economy system. If Blizzard KEEPS their current implementation of the econ changes then maps are going to have to change RADICALLY or Zerg is pretty much a dead race. The two games I saw for LOTV are a primitive example of what one should expect.
You can't take asymmetric races (one of which relies on being solidly ahead of its opponents in economy to negate "shittier" units) and then throw in an economic system which forces all races to expand to 5-6 bases by the 16 minute mark, and then expect a race with units that simply cannot compete with its opponents and requires an extreme focus on economy + bases to stay even (not to mention a unique macro mechanic). Zerg needs to be a base ahead, it needs to have a drone advantage which it can translate into an army advantage, and with the way maps are now (designed around 4TH bases being hard to take, lol) that just can't happen. Zerg gets to four bases, Terran gets to four bases, and then Zerg just sort of slowly dies because it cannot hold further expansions while Terran/(lesser extent Protoss) can expand at will and abuse the power of the mule!
The economy system Blizzard is experimenting with amplifies the power of harassment and stable Iinear economic growth to a point where it's just ridiculous. We'll see, we'll see, I'm keeping my eye on what happens with the beta. Hopefully they change the economic system even more and model it after Brood War. People might forget that while Brood War rewarded people for expanding and spreading out saturation of minerals, it also didn't PUNISH players for staying on two bases and oversaturating (aka TvZ). I'd like to see the return of that dynamic. It would add a lot to the game. But just cutting down on the amount of minerals per patch and starting out with 12 workers really, really doesn't cut it.
I'd say focus on the changes to the econ system first, and then fundamental racial design characteristics, before looking at particular implementations of a unit, as econ changes are going to have waaaay more effect on the game as a whole than any particular unit. Besides, when beta rolls around we'll all have to deal with 4 months of adjusting to various Terran pressures before they figure out a stable build they can roll with every game  .
Lack of reaver sucks though, with the disruptor functioning as a mini-reaver currently, I can't see Blizzard implementing it into LOTV. Hopefully some other cool reworks are coming down the pipe for Toss.
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On November 11 2014 07:01 Qwyn wrote:+ Show Spoiler [long ass post] +You know what's funny? When we (my buddies and I) saw the gameplay videos for all three races, our instant reaction was (Z > T > P). In terms of content, I think pretty much everyone reacted similarly. But then the exhibition matches roll around and it turns out Blizzard downtuned the Zerg units about as much as they've done every single alpha/beta, meaning to the point where they're all pretty pathetic (Lurker, corruptor, I'm looking at you). Even the nydus worm. But what gets me the most is the economy system. If Blizzard KEEPS their current implementation of the econ changes then maps are going to have to change RADICALLY or Zerg is pretty much a dead race. The two games I saw for LOTV are a primitive example of what one should expect. You can't take asymmetric races (one of which relies on being solidly ahead of its opponents in economy to negate "shittier" units) and then throw in an economic system which forces all races to expand to 5-6 bases by the 16 minute mark, and then expect a race with units that simply cannot compete with its opponents and requires an extreme focus on economy + bases to stay even (not to mention a unique macro mechanic). Zerg needs to be a base ahead, it needs to have a drone advantage which it can translate into an army advantage, and with the way maps are now (designed around 4TH bases being hard to take, lol) that just can't happen. Zerg gets to four bases, Terran gets to four bases, and then Zerg just sort of slowly dies because it cannot hold further expansions while Terran/(lesser extent Protoss) can expand at will and abuse the power of the mule! The economy system Blizzard is experimenting with amplifies the power of harassment and stable Iinear economic growth to a point where it's just ridiculous. We'll see, we'll see, I'm keeping my eye on what happens with the beta. Hopefully they change the economic system even more and model it after Brood War. People might forget that while Brood War rewarded people for expanding and spreading out saturation of minerals, it also didn't PUNISH players for staying on two bases and oversaturating (aka TvZ). I'd like to see the return of that dynamic. It would add a lot to the game. But just cutting down on the amount of minerals per patch and starting out with 12 workers really, really doesn't cut it. I'd say focus on the changes to the econ system first, and then fundamental racial design characteristics, before looking at particular implementations of a unit, as econ changes are going to have waaaay more effect on the game as a whole than any particular unit. Besides, when beta rolls around we'll all have to deal with 4 months of adjusting to various Terran pressures before they figure out a stable build they can roll with every game . Lack of reaver sucks though, with the disruptor functioning as a mini-reaver currently, I can't see Blizzard implementing it into LOTV. Hopefully some other cool reworks are coming down the pipe for Toss.
Nobody's complaining about power level or balance. We are complaining that Z and T got a bunch of shiny new toys and on our goddamn birthday (the reveal of OUR expansion), all that protoss got was a slap in the face. Plus rumours of a new toy "at some point" great.
While I don't disagree that the new economy will fuck with racial balance, we haven't seen any designed for LotV maps yet (or at least, no good ones. Don't forget WoL beta maps haha).
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On November 11 2014 07:08 Sn0_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 07:01 Qwyn wrote:+ Show Spoiler [long ass post] +You know what's funny? When we (my buddies and I) saw the gameplay videos for all three races, our instant reaction was (Z > T > P). In terms of content, I think pretty much everyone reacted similarly. But then the exhibition matches roll around and it turns out Blizzard downtuned the Zerg units about as much as they've done every single alpha/beta, meaning to the point where they're all pretty pathetic (Lurker, corruptor, I'm looking at you). Even the nydus worm. But what gets me the most is the economy system. If Blizzard KEEPS their current implementation of the econ changes then maps are going to have to change RADICALLY or Zerg is pretty much a dead race. The two games I saw for LOTV are a primitive example of what one should expect. You can't take asymmetric races (one of which relies on being solidly ahead of its opponents in economy to negate "shittier" units) and then throw in an economic system which forces all races to expand to 5-6 bases by the 16 minute mark, and then expect a race with units that simply cannot compete with its opponents and requires an extreme focus on economy + bases to stay even (not to mention a unique macro mechanic). Zerg needs to be a base ahead, it needs to have a drone advantage which it can translate into an army advantage, and with the way maps are now (designed around 4TH bases being hard to take, lol) that just can't happen. Zerg gets to four bases, Terran gets to four bases, and then Zerg just sort of slowly dies because it cannot hold further expansions while Terran/(lesser extent Protoss) can expand at will and abuse the power of the mule! The economy system Blizzard is experimenting with amplifies the power of harassment and stable Iinear economic growth to a point where it's just ridiculous. We'll see, we'll see, I'm keeping my eye on what happens with the beta. Hopefully they change the economic system even more and model it after Brood War. People might forget that while Brood War rewarded people for expanding and spreading out saturation of minerals, it also didn't PUNISH players for staying on two bases and oversaturating (aka TvZ). I'd like to see the return of that dynamic. It would add a lot to the game. But just cutting down on the amount of minerals per patch and starting out with 12 workers really, really doesn't cut it. I'd say focus on the changes to the econ system first, and then fundamental racial design characteristics, before looking at particular implementations of a unit, as econ changes are going to have waaaay more effect on the game as a whole than any particular unit. Besides, when beta rolls around we'll all have to deal with 4 months of adjusting to various Terran pressures before they figure out a stable build they can roll with every game . Lack of reaver sucks though, with the disruptor functioning as a mini-reaver currently, I can't see Blizzard implementing it into LOTV. Hopefully some other cool reworks are coming down the pipe for Toss. Nobody's complaining about power level or balance. We are complaining that Z and T got a bunch of shiny new toys and on our goddamn birthday (the reveal of OUR expansion), all that protoss got was a slap in the face. Plus rumours of a new toy "at some point" great. While I don't disagree that the new economy will fuck with racial balance, we haven't seen any designed for LotV maps yet (or at least, no good ones. Don't forget WoL beta maps haha).
That's true, I was just about to come back and add to my bitching to make it clear I think the lack of Protoss toys is utter bullshit.
I for one would like to see a complete rework of T1 and the addition of a substitute for the...(you guessed it)...c..o..l..l..o..s..u..s......
The warp change is interesting because, while it is a nerf, I think it is a logical consequence that should have been integrated with warp-in from the beginning. Love the carrier change, would like to see diversification of T1 and some tinkering with T2 ground and T2 air respectively. Here's to hoping that Blizzard scraps the disruptor and decides the reaver is the only way to set things right  .
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Tbh I didn't feel like protoss was cheated that hard. I thought the new warp prism looked stuuuupid good, I thought the immortals with hardened shield were a clever and useful change, and I also kept in mind from the start that they were going to have another unit on top of it. Overall protoss will be a bit harder to play, which I don't mind, but I don't know that it will be a lot weaker. I do hope the other new unit will be accessible in the early game though
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On November 11 2014 07:17 Qwyn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 07:08 Sn0_Man wrote:On November 11 2014 07:01 Qwyn wrote:+ Show Spoiler [long ass post] +You know what's funny? When we (my buddies and I) saw the gameplay videos for all three races, our instant reaction was (Z > T > P). In terms of content, I think pretty much everyone reacted similarly. But then the exhibition matches roll around and it turns out Blizzard downtuned the Zerg units about as much as they've done every single alpha/beta, meaning to the point where they're all pretty pathetic (Lurker, corruptor, I'm looking at you). Even the nydus worm. But what gets me the most is the economy system. If Blizzard KEEPS their current implementation of the econ changes then maps are going to have to change RADICALLY or Zerg is pretty much a dead race. The two games I saw for LOTV are a primitive example of what one should expect. You can't take asymmetric races (one of which relies on being solidly ahead of its opponents in economy to negate "shittier" units) and then throw in an economic system which forces all races to expand to 5-6 bases by the 16 minute mark, and then expect a race with units that simply cannot compete with its opponents and requires an extreme focus on economy + bases to stay even (not to mention a unique macro mechanic). Zerg needs to be a base ahead, it needs to have a drone advantage which it can translate into an army advantage, and with the way maps are now (designed around 4TH bases being hard to take, lol) that just can't happen. Zerg gets to four bases, Terran gets to four bases, and then Zerg just sort of slowly dies because it cannot hold further expansions while Terran/(lesser extent Protoss) can expand at will and abuse the power of the mule! The economy system Blizzard is experimenting with amplifies the power of harassment and stable Iinear economic growth to a point where it's just ridiculous. We'll see, we'll see, I'm keeping my eye on what happens with the beta. Hopefully they change the economic system even more and model it after Brood War. People might forget that while Brood War rewarded people for expanding and spreading out saturation of minerals, it also didn't PUNISH players for staying on two bases and oversaturating (aka TvZ). I'd like to see the return of that dynamic. It would add a lot to the game. But just cutting down on the amount of minerals per patch and starting out with 12 workers really, really doesn't cut it. I'd say focus on the changes to the econ system first, and then fundamental racial design characteristics, before looking at particular implementations of a unit, as econ changes are going to have waaaay more effect on the game as a whole than any particular unit. Besides, when beta rolls around we'll all have to deal with 4 months of adjusting to various Terran pressures before they figure out a stable build they can roll with every game . Lack of reaver sucks though, with the disruptor functioning as a mini-reaver currently, I can't see Blizzard implementing it into LOTV. Hopefully some other cool reworks are coming down the pipe for Toss. Nobody's complaining about power level or balance. We are complaining that Z and T got a bunch of shiny new toys and on our goddamn birthday (the reveal of OUR expansion), all that protoss got was a slap in the face. Plus rumours of a new toy "at some point" great. While I don't disagree that the new economy will fuck with racial balance, we haven't seen any designed for LotV maps yet (or at least, no good ones. Don't forget WoL beta maps haha). That's true, I was just about to come back and add to my bitching to make it clear I think the lack of Protoss toys is utter bullshit. I for one would like to see a complete rework of T1 and the addition of a substitute for the...(you guessed it)...c..o..l..l..o..s..u..s...... The warp change is interesting because, while it is a nerf, I think it is a logical consequence that should have been integrated with warp-in from the beginning. Love the carrier change, would like to see diversification of T1 and some tinkering with T2 ground and T2 air respectively. Here's to hoping that Blizzard scraps the disruptor and decides the reaver is the only way to set things right .
Unless they plan to massively buff gateway units, there's no justifying 4x damage to units warping in. Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.. if anything they could use a buff.
This is one of those changes that is simply a response to community whining.
Is it too much to ask that when the Protoss expansion is released, I get some new shiny thing that shoots lasers? 
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HotS turned out VERY different from what we saw the first time at Blizzcon, thankfully!
I haven't played SC2 in over a year, I love most of the Terran and Zerg changes, but I'm not likely to start playing again if I'm not given anything cool to play with.
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Don't worry, There is a good reason they had to nerf all Protoss units and warpgates, I think they are going to add the Dragoon back honestly, that or Dark Archon.
EDIT : I can understand compeltely where you are coming from though, playing Protoss majority of my SC1 : BW career, I completely feel the same way, it is obvious that Terran and Zerg got the most love in the LotV Units // updates so far, but when Blizzard announces the new updated Protoss Changes, remember to update this Blog!
Because you will def. be drooling !
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your Country52797 Posts
On November 11 2014 09:36 GGzerG wrote:
Don't worry, There is a good reason they had to nerf all Protoss units and warpgates, I think they are going to add the Dragoon back honestly, that or Dark Archon.
EDIT : I can understand compeltely where you are coming from though, playing Protoss majority of my SC1 : BW career, I completely feel the same way, it is obvious that Terran and Zerg got the most love in the LotV Units // updates so far, but when Blizzard announces the new updated Protoss Changes, remember to update this Blog!
Because you will def. be drooling !
I hope it is the dark archon so that I can mind control everything
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I think the protoss changes were very exciting. In fact I was most disappointed at zerg, the new sh, infestors and nydus don't feel all that polished yet.
Ravager looks like a lot of skill required for a small reward.
The lurker, well I haven't seen it much in action yet.
Protoss warp prism pick up will be a huge change.
I love the immortal nerf as well, it will be far more interesting for a better player to shine.
I can see stasis being borderline op as well, it has so much potential.
On the warp gate nerf, I am interested to see what is the final change. I doubt it is a full on hard nerf
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Austria24422 Posts
I would love it if they added a gateway unit or even two that you could only build from gateways. Those units could then be a lot stronger than regular gateway units and could do the defending for you, among other things. That would lead to very interesting decisionmaking as to how many WGs and how many gates you have, always depending on your stance in the game. If you're defending, it would make sense to chrono out those units, if you're aggressive then you could switch to WGs.
I wouldn't like just a buff to existing GW units, that would just make people all in more or break existing unit interactions. I'd rather have a more diverse and smart approach to protoss production and unit choices.
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I wonder if they chose not to unveil another protoss unit because of possible story spoilers...
also, for the record terran only got one new unit in HotS...
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
It did rather have the feel of "we're going to shit on you on your own expansion"
But I'll hold judgement until later.
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I think it depends a lot on how you look at it. E.g. I wasn't really pleased with the Zerg stuff either, I don't need lurkers, Ravager is currently way too much focused on just being a better roach while the cool flare ability doesn't hit anything and when it does it does very little damage and I'm definitely not going to include more Nydus cheeses in my play just to make games play shit.
But I agree with you, it's currently like "hey, there's new stuff for everyone... oh and we are nerfing old Protoss stuff".
To all the guys saying "please remember this is all not final": Please remember that the only way that this stuff will not become final is by discussing what we like and what we don't so there is feedback.
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On November 11 2014 05:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 05:45 Pontius Pirate wrote:On November 11 2014 04:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The warpgate nerf is mindblowing to me. They're basically introducing this absolutely monumental nerf to the core protoss macro mechanic and they're giving absolutely nothing back to compensate for it. At least nothing is announced right now.
You could implement the WG changes in HotS and protoss wouldn't exist in tournaments. Then add the overcharge nerf, the new units, the unit tweaks, etc.etc. and you're left with... well, nothing. They will HAVE to make gigantic changes to protoss units or introduce something new, otherwise there won't be any protoss. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore with this. But protoss has to be able to do that, otherwise there is no way to win. People are seriously overestimating the importance of units taking double damage warping in. You simply warp in out of range of actively firing units. It's that easy. The only type of change to warping in that would've justified buffing gateway units overall would've been a cooldown increase to become higher than the build times from gateways. Also, the stasis orb is a really cool ability. Don't think for a second you won't be seeing oracles used at all stages of every matchup now. Your opponent can force you to warp in directly into a fight. I could go through hundreds of scenarios where it's necessary to warp in units right into the line of fire to buy time for your main army/reinforcements to get there. In every matchup. Be it drops in TvP, mutas in pvz, prism drops in pvp, or a ton of other scenarios where the correct way to play is to warp directly into a fight. People who say "just warp in somewhere safe" have never played protoss. You also forgot that units take almost twice the time to warp in now. By the time your units are done warping in at safe distance, your entire mineral line/all your tech buildings/whatever they target is gone.
The capability to have instant defense at every location was a bit ridiculous and it's part of this power creep that should be purged from the game. Medivacs and mutalisks are two of the main offenders, if those two units weren't as strong then protoss won't suffer with the new warpgate.
One change I want is chronoboost on cannons for a temporary attack speed boost. This could give protoss a bit of defensive respite. Photon overcharge not hitting air also seems like a senseless change that should be revoked, it's useful deterrence against mutalisks if nothing else.
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Tempest isn't a nerf, it's just a role change. It very clearly had an overlap with the carrier which is retarded.
In fact it gets faster move speed and an ability that can take out high priority targets which includes air. I'd call that a buff.
The immortal on the other hand isn't exactly a nerf. Sure it's not as good versus tanks or other high damage low attack speed units, but it does get a buff versus high attack speed low damage units, like lings, marines, zealots, etc.
It's more of a wash if anything.
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On November 11 2014 08:19 Nebuchad wrote:
Tbh I didn't feel like protoss was cheated that hard. I thought the new warp prism looked stuuuupid good, I thought the immortals with hardened shield were a clever and useful change, and I also kept in mind from the start that they were going to have another unit on top of it. Overall protoss will be a bit harder to play, which I don't mind, but I don't know that it will be a lot weaker. I do hope the other new unit will be accessible in the early game though
The more I think about it the less I agree. I liked the tweaks of existing units, but yeah, protoss is going wc3 in terms of units with active abilities.
The new warp prism doesnt do anything the old one didnt aside from having a worse warp-in.
Same goes for the carriers, immos and the tempests, they dont do anything new and I doubt they behave differently. They require a bit more micro now if you want them to work in the same way.
The new toss unit is a harder to hit baneling from the robo bay...
The only new thing that looks remotely useful is stasis.
Maybe they will finally buff/change warpgate-units. They nerfed warp-ins against zerg and gave Terra the answer to stalkers (and to everything else at the moment it seems).
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What bothers me the most is that every Protoss unit needs to have some arbitrary ability slapped on it that "requires micro" to justify its existence.
People don't realize how hard it gets to properly control every single unit to its full potential when every single unit has an ability you need to use in battle (not like stim where you just stim everything together on one control group). Blink Stalkers need to be microed individually, Mothership Core has its own requirement, and now you need to individually activate shields on your Immortals too. That's separate from Sentries, Templar, Void Rays, Oracles...
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As a terran player, my first reaction to the proposed P changes was total confusion. If they implemented anything similar to what they have shown, P would be completely unplayable. The point where I'm most confused is the intersection between the warp-in nerf and the reduced minerals per base - so P not only has to expo more (which is already hard), but literally the only tool they have to defend expos, other than 2k+ of buildings, is more-or-less removed? That doesn't make sense to me.
As far as the disruptor goes, it seems pretty obvious to me that the disruptor is supposed to be a reaver standin. It's plainly useless by itself, but combined with warpship micro you could theoretically nuke mineral lines etc. It makes a pure robo opening feel alot like a banshee opening -> obs, WP, disruptor, harass while you expo, etc
It definately feels like we need some kind of baseline warpgate unit buff for P not to be completely utterly fucked.
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On November 12 2014 04:42 Fission wrote:
As a terran player, my first reaction to the proposed P changes was total confusion. If they implemented anything similar to what they have shown, P would be completely unplayable. The point where I'm most confused is the intersection between the warp-in nerf and the reduced minerals per base - so P not only has to expo more (which is already hard), but literally the only tool they have to defend expos, other than 2k+ of buildings, is more-or-less removed? That doesn't make sense to me.
As far as the disruptor goes, it seems pretty obvious to me that the disruptor is supposed to be a reaver standin. It's plainly useless by itself, but combined with warpship micro you could theoretically nuke mineral lines etc. It makes a pure robo opening feel alot like a banshee opening -> obs, WP, disruptor, harass while you expo, etc
It definately feels like we need some kind of baseline warpgate unit buff for P not to be completely utterly fucked.
I agree with this entirely.
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On November 11 2014 05:53 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2014 05:45 Pontius Pirate wrote:On November 11 2014 04:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
The warpgate nerf is mindblowing to me. They're basically introducing this absolutely monumental nerf to the core protoss macro mechanic and they're giving absolutely nothing back to compensate for it. At least nothing is announced right now.
You could implement the WG changes in HotS and protoss wouldn't exist in tournaments. Then add the overcharge nerf, the new units, the unit tweaks, etc.etc. and you're left with... well, nothing. They will HAVE to make gigantic changes to protoss units or introduce something new, otherwise there won't be any protoss. Defensive warpins basically don't exist anymore with this. But protoss has to be able to do that, otherwise there is no way to win. People are seriously overestimating the importance of units taking double damage warping in. You simply warp in out of range of actively firing units. It's that easy. The only type of change to warping in that would've justified buffing gateway units overall would've been a cooldown increase to become higher than the build times from gateways. Also, the stasis orb is a really cool ability. Don't think for a second you won't be seeing oracles used at all stages of every matchup now. Your opponent can force you to warp in directly into a fight. I could go through hundreds of scenarios where it's necessary to warp in units right into the line of fire to buy time for your main army/reinforcements to get there. In every matchup. Be it drops in TvP, mutas in pvz, prism drops in pvp, or a ton of other scenarios where the correct way to play is to warp directly into a fight. People who say "just warp in somewhere safe" have never played protoss. You also forgot that units take almost twice the time to warp in now. By the time your units are done warping in at safe distance, your entire mineral line/all your tech buildings/whatever they target is gone.
Maybe I'm assuming too much of Blizzard but the WG change is so massive to such a fundamental part of Protoss that it's basically implicit that Blizzard is going to do something to gateway units to compensate even if they don't know what that is yet
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during hots people go on and on and on about unit changes, economy changes, matchup redesigns, we get all of those things and protoss players instantly react with "BUT WHERE ARE THE NEW UNITS???" and start bemoaning their future in a game that won't be released for a year
esports fans most entitled fans
and the most frustrating complaint is the people who think they can somehow project how all of these changes (ESPECIALLY the economic ones) will play out. somehow people are clairvoyant and able to know exactly what new build orders there will be with the new units, how timings will change, how all of these things will interact, and predict that an entire race will be "unplayable"?
just poor logic overall and indicative of people who have a bad attitude about the game. most likely the same people who balance whine on ladder after every game
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