• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 22:54
CEST 04:54
KST 11:54
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach0[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8
Community News
Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2313Weekly Cups (Sep 7-12): SHIN, ByuN, MaxPax double down1StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon101Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10
StarCraft 2
General
How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Grand Finals ScienceCraft (October 24-25) - Live Event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble Mutation # 543 Enhanced Defenses
Brood War
General
Bot on ladder an AI researcher's take on the ladder bot BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach StarCraft Human 'N' AI League
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro8 Day 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 2 [ASL22] Ro8 Day 1
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Nintendo Switch Thread EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Artificial Intelligence Thread All you football fans (soccer)!
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Violent-Cooperative Play and…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 9540 users

Pen&Paper Roleplaying - Some more thoughts

Blogs > Jonrock
Post a Reply
Jonrock
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Germany80 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-22 23:09:04
June 22 2014 22:44 GMT
#1
It's been quite a while since the last time I wrote about this. Nevertheless here is part 2 of my random thoughts on good pen&paper roleplaying games

Player-DM-Trust

As a dungeon master, you almost can't avoid to "cheat" your players. Not just by changing a hidden die roll or the remaining hit points of an enemy, but by adapting the game world to the players actions.

Some examples:
1) In a big fight the players have had some bad luck with the dice and it's looking bleak. The DM has the monsters target the healthy fighter instead of the near dead wizard.

2) The characters must retrieve an artifact from the top chamber of a wizards tower but the dungeon master forgot about that Fly potion the party wizard still has. Because this would allow the players to bypass the entire dungeon the DM decides that all the tower windows are magically reinforced.

Both of these examples, I find bad. Because in either case, the players may feel, that the DM is "cheating". For the first example there might be more subtle ways to influence the fight. You could have an enemy caster not use the strongest spell in their repertoire. But sometimes you just have to let the wizard die. If the players get the feeling that you will intervene when they start to lose, that takes away the excitement of the game. Also it ruins the players sense of achievement when they win. This is why I dont make hidden rolls whenever possible (the only good reason to make hidden rolls in combat is so the players dont figure out your monsters attack boni and damage right away).
For the second example things get a little more complicated. Keeping the status quo would mean the players skip a large portion of your adventure. Maybe you didn't prepare anything else for today. Maybe something essential for the plot is supposed to happen inside that tower. Also, it will probably be more fun for everone to accept the challenges in the tower. As a DM, you should "cheat" in this situation. But you should carefully consider the way you do it. First, the change you make should be plausible and ideally the players shouldn't even notice. Second, using the Fly potion was a good idea and if possible it should not go entirely unrewarded. Maybe the wizard uses the potion to break into the top chamber and finds some cool loot, but the artifact the party was looking for is not there, because the owner moved it to another part of the tower. Never should a player be punished for a good idea, just because it breaks your plans.
To summarize: The players must trust you, not to make too many adaptions on the fly. To establish this trust it is necessary that sometimes things go really well for the players, and sometimes things go really bad. If you do not allow for these extreme outcomes, the players will feel like they have no influence on what happens.
Note: Some dungeon masters like to improvise most of their adventure and may do an amazing job at that. But if the game world is not pre-planned to a certain degree it is impossible to establish this player-DM-trust.


Use a Grid!

[image loading]

Just a few years ago, in my d&d party we used to run fights without a grid. Sometimes we used to sketch the scene and have the players mark the positions of their characters. Don't do this! Even if you run a game that does not have specific rules for movement on a grid, I strongly recommend making up some basic rules for that and using a grid and miniatures (or tokens) to keep track of positioning during fights.
It makes things more tactical, it allows you and your players to take advantage of the environment and it puts an end to those discussions about who was in range of that dragons breath and who was not.
More recently I have taken up running entire dungeons with a grid. I use big sheets of flip chart paper (which happens to have the exact size of squares for miniatures) and draw the outlines of the dungeon and sketch its most important features as the characters explore. Character movement is not turn-based during this. This once again eliminates discussions about who was in range of that trap and who was not. Also it allows for quick transitions into a fight. For some parts of the dungeon it may be tedious and unnecessary but if you run the entire dungeon with verbal description and suddenly take out the grid for one room, all your players will know that something is up. My players and I have been really enjoying this approach so far.

If you need tokens for monsters, I can recommend this, especially if you play d&d, but might work well with any medieval fantasy game.

Miniatures otherwise are kinda expensive. There are some less popular fantasy tabletop games like Mage Knight with good miniatures that are much cheaper in most stores. You might have to use a bigger grid though.


A Players Responsibility
(party from here: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html)

All the players are just as much responsible to make the game good and enjoyable as the dungeon master is. This seems obvious. But sometimes players forget this, with the excuse that they are "playing their character". A player may decide that his character has no good motivation to pursue the quest the dungeon master presented. This is not good roleplaying! If the player insists on his character needing a good motivation, it is that players job to come up with a motivation.
Similiar, while some conflict between the player characters can be fun, it is ultimately the players responsibility to have their characters get along and team up for the adventure. This is not to say players should not roleplay their characters. It just means they should roleplay their characters in a way that makes the game fun for everybody.


Let Your Players Shine

When someone plays a roleplaying game, they want to be the awesome hero that defeats the bad guy and saves the day and there is no reason not to let them, at least from time to time. That means if your party rogue attemps a daring feat, swinging from the chandelier towards the bad guy, give him a fair chance with the dice, even if you think the move is a little unrealistic and he might just as well have taken the stairs. If the roll is successful, describe how the bad guy is astonished and takes a step back. When the party bard gives a performance at the tavern, let him notice how the young barmaid is staring at him and blushes and shyly turns away as he looks back. When the dwarven fighter lands a critical hit on the orc barbarian, describe how his mighty blow crushes the orcs skull. Also, do not have a super strong NPC turn the tide of the final battle and take the glory away from the player characters.
In other words: Let your players be heroes.
Other Example: A Player rolls a critical hit and the DM just tells him "you kill the guy" without the player rolling for damage. Even if the enemy only has 1 hit point left, let the player roll the damage and probably even give some description of the amazing blow the player landed.



Link to Part 1

**
take apart your head
Random_0
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1163 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-06-23 05:21:54
June 23 2014 05:21 GMT
#2
You seem like a really cool DM. It makes me miss playing D&D back in the day.
Usagi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Spain1647 Posts
June 23 2014 13:52 GMT
#3
Not every game is D&D, and not every players group is the same. I disagree in two of the point presented here, the grid has been largely discussed, if I want to play a tactical game I play Descent, or some other thing. It goes tied with the same as the no hiden rolls and no "cheating" I see the objective of a roleplaying night to get together and have fun unfolding a story, you even touch on that point on the last point.
KelsierSC
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United Kingdom10443 Posts
June 23 2014 15:03 GMT
#4
On June 23 2014 22:52 Usagi wrote:
Not every game is D&D, and not every players group is the same. I disagree in two of the point presented here, the grid has been largely discussed, if I want to play a tactical game I play Descent, or some other thing. It goes tied with the same as the no hiden rolls and no "cheating" I see the objective of a roleplaying night to get together and have fun unfolding a story, you even touch on that point on the last point.



I may be wrong here but the way the OP describes the Grid is to help the players take advantage of the environment and also to solve silly disputes.
I think this adds to the entertainment value in some ways and also stops petty arguments over AOE effects etc.
Does the grid interfere with the telling of the story, I personally don't think so , what leads you to believe that it does?
Zerg for Life
Jonrock
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
Germany80 Posts
June 23 2014 17:18 GMT
#5
On June 23 2014 22:52 Usagi wrote:
Not every game is D&D, and not every players group is the same. I disagree in two of the point presented here, the grid has been largely discussed, if I want to play a tactical game I play Descent, or some other thing. It goes tied with the same as the no hiden rolls and no "cheating" I see the objective of a roleplaying night to get together and have fun unfolding a story, you even touch on that point on the last point.


You are of course correct stating, that not every group is the same. And all of my thoughts and advice are of course entirely subjective. I have played in games that barely had any fights and put the focus on different aspects of the game mostly. If that is what you are going for, I can see how putting up a grid and a bunch of tokens goes in the wrong direction.
My advice was directed at the groups, that do have a lot of fights and combat (and I think that is the case more often than not) and for these groups I don't see what using a grid takes away from the story. My expierience is that the players will enjoy it.

As for not making hidden roles, I dont exactly understand your argument. How does my proposal of trying not to cheat conflict with having fun unfolding a story?
take apart your head
bunnyroller
Profile Joined August 2014
10 Posts
August 02 2014 11:02 GMT
#6
It's a very interesting site, i just love reading this forum , its too good !!
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
2026 GSTL: Grand Finals
CranKy Ducklings116
LiquipediaDiscussion
OSC
23:00
OSC Masters Cup #151 Qualifier
davetesta29
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 223
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 10576
Terrorterran 1
Dota 2
monkeys_forever1144
NeuroSwarm198
febbydoto17
League of Legends
Doublelift5452
JimRising 712
Counter-Strike
taco 248
minikerr47
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King262
hungrybox119
Other Games
summit1g9411
Maynarde241
ArmadaUGS53
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick468
StarCraft: Brood War
Kim Chul Min (afreeca) 8
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 209
• Letter142
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo726
• Rush264
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
7h 6m
Soma vs Jaedong
WardiTV Weekly
8h 6m
Monday Night Weeklies
13h 6m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 7h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 7h
Leta vs Soulkey
PiGosaur Cup
1d 21h
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
BSL Open Qualifier
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-27
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Calamity Invitational

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Custodian Cup
Copium Cup
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.