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What if no balance changes had ever been made? - Page 2

Blogs > CableSCES
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diehilde
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany1596 Posts
January 25 2014 01:32 GMT
#21
No changes would be cool. 1-Supply Roaches were epic ^^
Savior: "I will cheat everyone again in SC2!" - SCII Beta Tester
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
January 25 2014 05:34 GMT
#22
I mean, someone could conceivably make a map like this, right? This is something people could feasibly test.
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
January 25 2014 07:09 GMT
#23
hmm I think Blizzard should've taken the map approach first. Leave the races as is and make bigger maps to see how things work out. I remember the crying that was plaguing the forums over the roach having range 3 and how they were being kited by stalkers etc... I think bigger maps might've meant less patches and nerfs however in the end, I think Blizzard would've had to balance(nerf or better to buff other races) some units.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Ahzz
Profile Joined May 2007
Finland780 Posts
January 25 2014 08:54 GMT
#24
On January 25 2014 16:09 BigFan wrote:
hmm I think Blizzard should've taken the map approach first. Leave the races as is and make bigger maps to see how things work out. I remember the crying that was plaguing the forums over the roach having range 3 and how they were being kited by stalkers etc... I think bigger maps might've meant less patches and nerfs however in the end, I think Blizzard would've had to balance(nerf or better to buff other races) some units.

Maps do not fix the inherent problem that the game had.
The average game length was like 9 minutes. NOBODY wants to stick to a game like this, regardless if its balanced or not.
The question about balance doesn't revolve around 'If both players took half of the map and then made the ideal unit combinations, would we have a balanced fight in the middle ??!?!!!11'... It's about never getting even close to that point because the game was rigged with broken mechanics that emphasize on rock-paper-scissors. It was essentially how this game was designed
KTP_TV
Profile Joined October 2013
France42 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 13:37:40
January 25 2014 13:37 GMT
#25
On January 25 2014 05:22 Kuni wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2014 05:09 vOdToasT wrote:
Yet, despite these changes, the balance still swings around unpredictably as new strategies are figured out


Racial distribution among tournament winners is more even now than it was in the past. So are the statistical win rates.


Not really. Koreans still win everything and once in a while a few Europeans earn prize money. Barely any Americans though :-(


Omg, in case your post was not a joke, he was talking about T/P/Z.
And FYI there's only once race, the human one. Making distinctions between so-called "races" is actually the definition of racism ^^
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 16:31:12
January 25 2014 16:24 GMT
#26
On January 25 2014 22:37 KTP_TV wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2014 05:22 Kuni wrote:
On January 25 2014 05:09 vOdToasT wrote:
Yet, despite these changes, the balance still swings around unpredictably as new strategies are figured out


Racial distribution among tournament winners is more even now than it was in the past. So are the statistical win rates.


Not really. Koreans still win everything and once in a while a few Europeans earn prize money. Barely any Americans though :-(


Omg, in case your post was not a joke, he was talking about T/P/Z.
And FYI there's only once race, the human one. Making distinctions between so-called "races" is actually the definition of racism ^^


Technically, no. Racism is when you think race is important - that a human can be better or worse because he belongs to a certain race.
You can admit to the factual differences between genders, without being a sexist, just as you can believe that races exist, and categorize humans in to different races, without being a racist. As long as you don't think one gender is always better than the other, or that gender is a big deal, you are not a sexist.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
January 25 2014 16:45 GMT
#27
I dunno, didn't 5 rax reapers just destroy Zerg? Or was that after the roach changes?

I am not sure that making no changes would have been the best route. Would BW still be BW if it was vanilla Sc1? One could argue that if we could balance everything via meta and maps, SC1 would have been fine without the BW expansion.
didsomeonesaydaeTL0
Profile Joined January 2014
2 Posts
January 25 2014 17:04 GMT
#28
Does this include balance changes from the alpha? Because 1 supply, 2 armor, 10 regen, 3 free speed, free burrow move, 20 regen while burrowed roaches would be hilariously broken, even disregarding the 3 range
DAE?
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 18:40:53
January 25 2014 18:40 GMT
#29
I take this as no changes after WOL release. I don't think OP includes Alpha and Beta changes.
KT best KT ~ 2014
Izerman
Profile Joined May 2013
Sweden99 Posts
January 25 2014 18:59 GMT
#30
On January 25 2014 09:44 NinjaBLT wrote:
Could someone please make a custom map reverting all the balance changes? That would be interesting to play on. I'm noob at map editor so I can't T_T


Iam already on it.. takes a while to read through all the 25pages of balance patches since 2010 :D

anybody wanna help?
CableSCES
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
United States367 Posts
January 25 2014 19:08 GMT
#31
On January 26 2014 02:04 didsomeonesaydaeTL0 wrote:
Does this include balance changes from the alpha? Because 1 supply, 2 armor, 10 regen, 3 free speed, free burrow move, 20 regen while burrowed roaches would be hilariously broken, even disregarding the 3 range

I am talking about post-release. So alpha and beta revisions are not included, for WoL or HoTS. IMO that's when balance should be most heavily analyzed and determined.

On January 26 2014 01:45 vthree wrote:
I dunno, didn't 5 rax reapers just destroy Zerg? Or was that after the roach changes?

I am not sure that making no changes would have been the best route. Would BW still be BW if it was vanilla Sc1? One could argue that if we could balance everything via meta and maps, SC1 would have been fine without the BW expansion.


I mentioned how I absolutely believe in expansions. Adding elements to the game is always great. It increases the options, choices, strategies, etc. If, during an expansion, an existing unit is adjusted, I would take this as an expansion change as well.

BW was the best thing to happen to video games, imo, ever. I think studying and analyzing what made it a success is the key.

On January 26 2014 03:59 Izerman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 25 2014 09:44 NinjaBLT wrote:
Could someone please make a custom map reverting all the balance changes? That would be interesting to play on. I'm noob at map editor so I can't T_T


Iam already on it.. takes a while to read through all the 25pages of balance patches since 2010 :D

anybody wanna help?


You, sir, are awesome. I wish I knew map editor to help you, but that is exactly what I hoped for. Now get TB on board with it, or build some kinda starbow hype, to get people to play it
Saving SoCal eSports one sponsor at a time: MSI, JINX, Tt eSPORTS, HyperX, Red Bull ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Izerman
Profile Joined May 2013
Sweden99 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-25 19:32:06
January 25 2014 19:31 GMT
#32
On January 25 2014 07:44 Clbull wrote:
Let's look at this in-depth for a second. If no balance changes were ever made to the game since Wings, we'd probably see:

  • Viable Mech/Biomech vs Protoss - Siege Tanks would have done 60 damage instead of 50 to Armored and 35 to everything else. This would have made them viable versus Chargelots, Stalkers and Archons.
  • No Zerg dominance. The metagame would have likely developed around Blue Flame Hellions in TvZ and Zergs would have wised up to stopping effective Hellion drop harassment eventually instead of a blanket nerf occurring after SlayerS players dominate MLG Columbus 2011.
  • Zerg having very strong midgame timings through 1 supply Roaches. The "imba shit" like 60 damage Siege Tanks, Khaydarin Amulet, Immortals warped in from Warp Gates, Void Rays with 3 levels of attack and speed, Banshees with splash, etc. would have balanced this out.
  • A varied map pool. Blizzard maps wouldn't have been popular but community-made maps would have and the map pool would have been greatly varied.
  • Lower degree of deathballing. With much more powerful Siege Tanks, Khaydarin Amulet, constant threat of blue flame hellion runbys, constant threat of bunker aggression, etc. Positional play would have been amazing to watch unfold and would have become a necessity to defend from certain "imba shit" like pre-nerf blue flame hellion drops or Blink harassment.
  • The scene would have likely still declined since 2012 assuming we reach a period of racial dominance at that point but since it took just one nonsensical patch (raising Queen range from 3 to 5) to do that, I have a feeling the metagame would have developed beautifully and winrates would have been highly balanced until at least 2014 - 2015. There's still the issue that KeSPA were blocked from entering the SC2 scene by Blizzard.


Well.. i would really like to see how the koreans would exploit things like this.
having people like iloveoov who keep coming up with "imba" builds only to see them nerfed because "imba" is plain boring.

i remember how fun it was when maps where more open and the way zerg engaged terran/protoss was flanking and sending in cannonfodder to actually deal dmg to mech/colossus.
And things like the mines.. man seeing the mines detonate killing 25lings.. well, why nerf mines when you can just buff lings to even the marine/ling interactions?

And the infestor. man make it cost 250gas up to 300 gas but keep the ability as is..

And the more imba stuff.. snipe was a disaster, countering everything was stupid, but maybe remove armor tag from ultra/broodlords to make them specifically off the "sniping" counter..
would be more of a support midgame unit..

oh man the nostalgia..

EDIT: on a sidenote, the maps were different and all the stuff they do now may impact the game different
BeMannerDuPenner
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
Germany5638 Posts
January 26 2014 14:36 GMT
#33
wouldnt work. in broodwar half of the units were "op" with control often beeing the limiting factor. this allowed for all that fancy stuff-.

in sc2 almost no units have that depth and scaling with skill like so many did in bw and "hardcounters" limit the strategic options anyway.



life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
Izerman
Profile Joined May 2013
Sweden99 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-27 21:23:54
January 27 2014 14:27 GMT
#34
bleh

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