EPTusually, when browsing TL.Net one of the first things a say to myself is "i wonder what zealously thinks about this issue".
so its a big loss for TL.
Bye - Page 9
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16950 Posts
usually, when browsing TL.Net one of the first things a say to myself is "i wonder what zealously thinks about this issue". so its a big loss for TL. | ||
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Skirmjan
Italy190 Posts
On January 23 2014 23:48 Noobity wrote: I don't think that is a mis-perception at all. If a casual observer would come to the forums and get the impression that SC2 sucked and Blizzard sucked then that's a pretty accurate perception. If the naysayers are a minority, they're an extremely vocal minority and it doesn't really matter how many people like something in a forum when 2/3 of posts are negative. A large part of the problem is that those bashing the game are so fantastically adamant that the game sucks and they're not culled. The mods are extremely lenient with a lot of stuff which is, in my opinion, the biggest problem. I don't know if I'd like the forums if they were harsher in moderation, but I think that the way they mod is why there is this specific problem right now. Understand too, that a lot of people who enjoy SC2 don't play it anymore. I don't see any reason why I'd go into the strategy section of the forums if I don't play SC2 right now. I enjoy the game, I enjoyed playing the game, but I simply burned myself out on playing it and now I'd rather watch games and read/talk about the aspects of the game that interest me. Reading a thread about a match and seeing "oh what, those banelings wouldn't have done nearly as much if the game was optimized like Brood War. What the fuck is blizzard doing? They're terrible at making and balancing games." and then that chucklehead's 5 buddies coming in and parroting his sentiments is pretty off-putting for a guy like me. The strategy section of the forums has nothing for me at this time, if that's where true fans are relegated to going to not be bombarded by the nonsensical hate then TL.net doesn't really have anything for a guy like me. It is a minority, and probably not even a large one, the last TL survey stated that some 80% of the TL userbase are sc2 players (and nobody should believe that many of them only come here to complain about the game they're interested about,that's preposterous) I totally agree with the people here noting that most of them are either fake Bw hipsters or LoL players and even some real Bw players, it is unfortunately totally in line with my experience On January 24 2014 00:19 plogamer wrote: That Zealously unfairly paints Terran concerns as whines. No doubt there are unreasonable concerns, which would fall under the category of "whine" I suppose. But to lambast anyone who raises a voice over oracles or warp tech? I didn't have to go digging (through a span of beginning of HotS to current, like you seem to suggest) for the posts I showed above. They were right there on today's Code A LR thread, within a couple of pages. When presented with numbers for why Terrans are complaining about Protoss over Zerg, Celestial closes his/her ears and leaves with insult for Ghan; going as far as removing valid content Ghan's post. That's not just argumentative skill at work here. I wanted to highlight that questionable, biased posts, come from everyone. As you say, everyone is biased. My concern is merely the portrayal of this biased whining and how it is being lapped up by the Protoss congregation here. PS. Calling it "poor argumentative skills" is rather apologetic. There's a not so thin line, a giant chasm between civil balance discussion (which should be left in the "designated balance thread" anyways) like "i think that perhaps the Oracle is overpowered" and something like that as opposed as the comments you routinely see some players post (even zergs), like "Toss requires no micro" "Toss macro so easy" or Good choice, protoss is easier. Tell me these ain't shitposts, and there are plenty of them. If you read between the lines of the average terran whiner post it really looks like the old 2010 argument "terran is OP because it wins too much and it's impossible than every terran player is a better RTS player" became "terran is UP and they still win as much as the other races (or more) because every terran player is a better RTS player" which is of course ridiculous to say the least. I don't know what numbers you're talking about, because every number i see (no, i'm not talking about David Kim's, which are probably accurate anyways) suggest a very good balance, and even if there was a slight imbalance it's nowhere near the Sad Zealot numbers when people were having an hard time naming tournament wins rather than losses (and also counting consecutive GSLs without protoss players in the ro4) or 2010 Terran dominance when the zergs were (rightly so) whining like crazy The marine doesn't really look sad: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments TL;DR; i totally agree with Zealously and i'd wish the shitposts were a little more moderated, especially those that fill their mouth with fake BW knowledge they don't even possess or try to downplay the other players skill in order to glorify their ego. It also feels like Sc2 is the more loosely moderated section as usually posts bashing other games in their section (try and look at the LoL one) are swiftly moderated. Btw congrats on becoming banling  Ps. perhaps this post looks as if i was bashing other communities or terran players, if so it's mostly unintentional but i'm really really soured and frustrated by reading baseless complaints and ridiculous claims, sometimes TL feels like a Twitch chat (btw i played Bw , although i do dislike LoL ) | ||
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UmberBane
Germany5450 Posts
On January 24 2014 01:04 Skirmjan wrote: I totally agree with the people here noting that most of them are either fake Bw hipsters or LoL players and even some real Bw players, it is unfortunately totally in line with my experience I only read through this thread very briefly, is this really the consensus? | ||
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ComaDose
Canada10357 Posts
On January 24 2014 01:28 UmberBane wrote: I only read through this thread very briefly, is this really the consensus? I really don't think LoL players are watching starcraft matches and calling the results bullshit in LR threads. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On January 24 2014 01:04 Skirmjan wrote: + Show Spoiler + On January 23 2014 23:48 Noobity wrote: I don't think that is a mis-perception at all. If a casual observer would come to the forums and get the impression that SC2 sucked and Blizzard sucked then that's a pretty accurate perception. If the naysayers are a minority, they're an extremely vocal minority and it doesn't really matter how many people like something in a forum when 2/3 of posts are negative. A large part of the problem is that those bashing the game are so fantastically adamant that the game sucks and they're not culled. The mods are extremely lenient with a lot of stuff which is, in my opinion, the biggest problem. I don't know if I'd like the forums if they were harsher in moderation, but I think that the way they mod is why there is this specific problem right now. Understand too, that a lot of people who enjoy SC2 don't play it anymore. I don't see any reason why I'd go into the strategy section of the forums if I don't play SC2 right now. I enjoy the game, I enjoyed playing the game, but I simply burned myself out on playing it and now I'd rather watch games and read/talk about the aspects of the game that interest me. Reading a thread about a match and seeing "oh what, those banelings wouldn't have done nearly as much if the game was optimized like Brood War. What the fuck is blizzard doing? They're terrible at making and balancing games." and then that chucklehead's 5 buddies coming in and parroting his sentiments is pretty off-putting for a guy like me. The strategy section of the forums has nothing for me at this time, if that's where true fans are relegated to going to not be bombarded by the nonsensical hate then TL.net doesn't really have anything for a guy like me. It is a minority, and probably not even a large one, the last TL survey stated that some 80% of the TL userbase are sc2 players (and nobody should believe that many of them only come here to complain about the game they're interested about,that's preposterous) I totally agree with the people here noting that most of them are either fake Bw hipsters or LoL players and even some real Bw players, it is unfortunately totally in line with my experience There's a not so thin line, a giant chasm between civil balance discussion (which should be left in the "designated balance thread" anyways) like "i think that perhaps the Oracle is overpowered" and something like that as opposed as the comments you routinely see some players post (even zergs), like "Toss requires no micro" "Toss macro so easy" or Tell me these ain't shitposts, and there are plenty of them. If you read between the lines of the average terran whiner post it really looks like the old 2010 argument "terran is OP because it wins too much and it's impossible than every terran player is a better RTS player" became "terran is UP and they still win as much as the other races (or more) because every terran player is a better RTS player" which is of course ridiculous to say the least. I don't know what numbers you're talking about, because every number i see (no, i'm not talking about David Kim's, which are probably accurate anyways) suggest a very good balance, and even if there was a slight imbalance it's nowhere near the Sad Zealot numbers when people were having an hard time naming tournament wins rather than losses (and also counting consecutive GSLs without protoss players in the ro4) or 2010 Terran dominance when the zergs were (rightly so) whining like crazy The marine doesn't really look sad: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments TL;DR; i totally agree with Zealously and i'd wish the shitposts were a little more moderated, especially those that fill their mouth with fake BW knowledge they don't even possess or try to downplay the other players skill in order to glorify their ego. It also feels like Sc2 is the more loosely moderated section as usually posts bashing other games in their section (try and look at the LoL one) are swiftly moderated. Btw congrats on becoming banling Ps. perhaps this post looks as if i was bashing other communities or terran players, if so it's mostly unintentional but i'm really really soured and frustrated by reading baseless complaints and ridiculous claims, sometimes TL feels like a Twitch chat (btw i played Bw , although i do dislike LoL )What you highlighted are absolutely shitposts! But like Zealously, your focus is intent on Terrans. A featured blog that takes a such a narrow angle can be misappropriated - and it is equally frustrating to see people call someone "whiner" or treat their posts as "crying" for reasonable posts. The numbers were in the context of the quoted texts referred to the win-rate for TvP in Code A as opposed to TvZ; and why Terrans are complaining (both reasonable and unreasonable complaints, unreasonable ones we can call "whining") about Protoss and not Zergs. /edit Oh, on a second glance, I see why there was a misunderstanding. Nebuchand did not quote my post when replying to me. Here is the link to my original reply: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=441587¤tpage=8#152 | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
 but seriously , TL is a toxic community that likes to bitch and whine ? please don't make me laugh XD , this is nothing , welcome to the internet. I will give you some friendly advice my man , and I'm not trolling I actually mean it , I think you heard of a game called "heroes of newerth" , download that game , play for a month while browsing through the forums and posting there a bit , TL - as it stands now - will look like heaven after that.....and that is only if you can survive the hellish amount of trolling , racism , degraded references to your parents , your own sexuality , your status when it comes beastiality , the balance whine and dont forget to apply all the above on people like maliken,dogkaiser and wza ( these people are the HoN equivalent of dustin browder and david kim ) and last but not least , posts from individuals telling the community that they are sick of them and will leave....the toxicity levels are so high there , s2 created a new game centered around cloning LoL and never repeating that community again , does this sound like TL to you ? If you need a break , its ok dude nobody has the right to judge you , I wish you the best and hopefully you will come back. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On January 24 2014 00:35 vOdToasT wrote: Hahaha, it never gets old hearing people talk about why BW is better than SC2, and clearly being clueless. My personal favourite: "BW didn't have death balls because you could only select 12 units at a time" (they always use past tense). As if the difference between 1a and 1a2a3a is that great. So stupid. -.- Also, there are viable strategies that revolve around keeping as many of your units as possible together, in a "death ball". I'm tired of these silly hipsters. Sometimes I get the urge to write an in depth post about the design choices in SC:BW that I really like and why I think it is such a good game, but then I envision the kinds of replies I'd get to such an effort (preaching to the choir or upsetting SC2 fans who hate any mention that BW isn't dead). What we used to call death balls in BW were not at all similar to what's called a deathball in SC2 though. It's not a fair comparison at all. The Terran ball in BW was a marine medic tank vessel composition that was difficult to break for Zerg without a strong flank. But the ball didn't literally take the shape of a ball lol. It wasn't controlled the same way either, and it isn't optimal to actually just put everything in the ball. The thing BW does very well is having multiple points of interest and terrain that matters (because units will get stuck on it and so there are directions where it is too your disadvantage to attack from). What BW actually had were lines of death (at least that's what my brother and I called them in 1999)... Because if you don't control your units and just send them point a to point b, they will legit just form this really stupid parade that is extremely vulnerable to attack. It punished you for 1a2a3a4a, and people underestimate a little how much posturing they're really doing and that the top players are doing to make their units attack in a strong formation. PvP it's more like 1click2click3click4click to set up a good aggregate of attack and THEN 1a2a3a4a + more posturing as the battle goes on, evaluating the strength of your flanks, letting your strong side keep fighting while you pull the weak back (and if your opponent is good, adjustments have to be made throughout the entire battle). I think people make a lot of lazy arguments (in part because they have already been made more thoroughly 100x over), but dismissing it as people being BW hipsters is somehow even lazier, and satisfies only the desire to be spiteful of another human being. For why SC2 is such an interesting and good game, that's going to be up to someone who likes SC2 to write up. Ideally without any direct comparisons to BW and other games, only making an effort to bring up things that are unique to SC2 that make it interesting to watch and play. Potentially a good argument can be made, but all people ever seem to do is say it's good without ever substantiating their claims, so there are no points on which to question them. IMO a post like this would be infinitely more effective than Zealousy's previous wimpy effort By comparison, actually a lot of effort has been made by pros to fully explain their misgivings about the game, in as objective a manner as they can, which is why the game has such a negative image with so many users.tl;dr: education is almost always the answer There will always be some people who are wrong on the internet, but TL is an isolated community where you can easily raise awareness of particular ideas. If Zealousy is half as popular as some of the replies in this blog make him out to be, he has the platform and the power to effect the changes he desires. I had never heard of him before his last blog, but if SC2 readers actually wonder what he thinks about a topic, he's got a lot of room to work with and it deserves a better effort. | ||
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1Dhalism
862 Posts
In the end the details don't even matter. If you watch SC2 lose ground to LoL, Dota and now even Hearthstone day after day you don't have to know why things have to change or how the balance should be addressed. But something is clearly wrong and something clearly had to be changed long time ago. | ||
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Darthsanta13
United States564 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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KadaverBB
Germany25657 Posts
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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Capped
United Kingdom7236 Posts
The ultimate strategy. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On May 23 2014 03:20 MysteryMeat1 wrote: This seems a bit late lichter... it was locked. the thread was only reopened recently. | ||
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
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Archas
United States6531 Posts
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