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A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech. Comparing this with the Marine, the Locusts has more health ,considerably does more DPS, and is relatively free. Now, Locusts are slower with a lower attack range and a limited lifespan, but I feel that the raw damage output overcompensates the said disadvantages.
Now, summoned or free units should be designed by one of the following templates.
1. There are at most a few of them on the field and they are strong and do significant damage or provide good support for the caster or army. (e.g. WC3 Archmage's water elemental or Crypt Lord's Carrion beetles)
2. There can be any number of them, but there are decent counters in the game for balance and go away in a short amount of time (e.g. WC3 Necromancer's Skeleton Warriors, which can be hard-countered by Priest's Dispel spell).
To me, Locust adopt only the good aspects of the two and that seems to pose a problem.
I would much prefer the idea that the Locusts are permanent with the same stats, but a Swarm Host can support up to a certain number of them (like Carrion beetles) and are replenished slowly, or they are weaker like Broodlings and spawned faster, but can be countered easier by storm or siege mode blast(like skeleton warriors).
Do Swarm Host pose a problem in the game itself? Probably not, but the unit is a bit awkward to use and it can be annoying for the opponent to deal with at times.
Now, I might be wrong about all of the things I've said, but this is a rant, so get over it :D
 
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On January 10 2014 06:59 midnight999 wrote:
A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech.
Then people could just go bio against Zerg. I don't see what everyone's obsession over mech is.
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United States11393 Posts
On January 10 2014 07:08 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 06:59 midnight999 wrote:
A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech. Then people could just go bio against Zerg. I don't see what everyone's obsession over mech is.
Apparently, some people like watching hour long games or longer of mass raven turtle vs spore swarmhost etc.
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Bisutopia19307 Posts
On January 10 2014 07:08 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 06:59 midnight999 wrote:
A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech. Then people could just go bio against Zerg. I don't see what everyone's obsession over mech is.
Everyone wants what they can't have. Which is why LightningStrike is in love with you.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 10 2014 07:06 Kaeru wrote:
Annoying to deal with at times? That's the purpose.
Swarm hosts require good positioning and movement, much like Siege Tanks. If you catch them out of position or have good understanding of your opponents army movements, you can avoid a head on fight vs them on most maps.
They cost 200/100 and that is quite a bit. If they are made "early" your opponents army size should be small. I'm sure you can find a way of dealing with them... Also, it's not like they spawn Loctus constantly. There is a nice timing to gank them and pick 1 or 2 off at every wave.
Wong. After the Enduring Locust upgrade, there is no gap between when one round of locusts expires and the other begins.
On January 10 2014 06:59 midnight999 wrote:
A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech. Comparing this with the Marine, the Locusts has more health ,considerably does more DPS, and is relatively free. Now, Locusts are slower with a lower attack range and a limited lifespan, but I feel that the raw damage output overcompensates the said disadvantages.
Now, summoned or free units should be designed by one of the following templates.
1. There are at most a few of them on the field and they are strong and do significant damage or provide good support for the caster or army. (e.g. WC3 Archmage's water elemental or Crypt Lord's Carrion beetles)
2. There can be any number of them, but there are decent counters in the game for balance and go away in a short amount of time (e.g. WC3 Necromancer's Skeleton Warriors, which can be hard-countered by Priest's Dispel spell).
To me, Locust adopt only the good aspects of the two and that seems to pose a problem.
I would much prefer the idea that the Locusts are permanent with the same stats, but a Swarm Host can support up to a certain number of them (like Carrion beetles) and are replenished slowly, or they are weaker like Broodlings and spawned faster, but can be countered easier by storm or siege mode blast(like skeleton warriors).
Do Swarm Host pose a problem in the game itself? Probably not, but the unit is a bit awkward to use and it can be annoying for the opponent to deal with at times.
Now, I might be wrong about all of the things I've said, but this is a rant, so get over it :D
I think it's interesting to give them semi-permanents units (kind of like interceptors) and I like the idea, but that's something I don't think Blizzard will ever go for. To be honest, though, I think a simple damage nerf and slight cut to SH cost (~150/75) would make the SH a much more useable unit because you could use small numbers of SH to simply provide some tanking for your units. Right now Locusts are way too strong for being constantly reproduceable units. Where and how you position swarm hosts should matter...they shouldn't be able to just freely deal damage from a safe distance at no real cost.
See: SwarmHosts: Safely Whittling Away
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I think the main issue right now is the enduring locusts upgrade. It prevents players from being able to time exactly when they should move in and destroy the hosts themselves. If the enduring locusts upgrade was replaced with something else, either something that made locusts faster (thus maintaining the effective range of the enduring locusts) or something that increased the number of locusts being spawned (therefore making them better at soaking up damage, as well as being more difficult to fight head-on, rather than outsmarting or outpositioning) the swarm host could be a more skill-based unit than it is now, as well as forcing opponents to have exciting, movement-based playstyles in order to defeat swarm host compositions.
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On January 10 2014 08:18 Harem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 07:08 ninazerg wrote:On January 10 2014 06:59 midnight999 wrote:
A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech. Then people could just go bio against Zerg. I don't see what everyone's obsession over mech is. Apparently, some people like watching hour long games or longer of mass raven turtle vs spore swarmhost etc.
I don't mind hour-long games as long as they're exciting. I remember a game from Asus ROG with goswser vs lucifron that took an hour. It was bad 
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On January 10 2014 12:51 midnight999 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 08:18 Harem wrote:On January 10 2014 07:08 ninazerg wrote:On January 10 2014 06:59 midnight999 wrote:
A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech. Then people could just go bio against Zerg. I don't see what everyone's obsession over mech is. Apparently, some people like watching hour long games or longer of mass raven turtle vs spore swarmhost etc. I don't mind hour-long games as long as they're exciting. I remember a game from Asus ROG with goswser vs lucifron that took an hour. It was bad
Well notice how he said hour long games of mass turtle mech and zerg goes mass spore/sh otherwise zerg has an even smaller chance of winning if they don't do that.
Honestly I don't see the obsession with mech is either, it's literally bl/corr/infestor for terran in tvz except it's called mech. Really hope mech dies down soon as it's so god damn boring to watch.
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United States4883 Posts
On January 10 2014 13:27 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2014 12:51 midnight999 wrote:On January 10 2014 08:18 Harem wrote:On January 10 2014 07:08 ninazerg wrote:On January 10 2014 06:59 midnight999 wrote:
A unit producing more units is not a bad game concept, but I feel the implementation here (Swarm Host) is awkward.
Despite how OP Locusts were in beta, I feel that they are still a bit OP, if not at least it shuts down certain playstyles, like Terran mech. Then people could just go bio against Zerg. I don't see what everyone's obsession over mech is. Apparently, some people like watching hour long games or longer of mass raven turtle vs spore swarmhost etc. I don't mind hour-long games as long as they're exciting. I remember a game from Asus ROG with goswser vs lucifron that took an hour. It was bad Well notice how he said hour long games of mass turtle mech and zerg goes mass spore/sh otherwise zerg has an even smaller chance of winning if they don't do that. Honestly I don't see the obsession with mech is either, it's literally bl/corr/infestor for terran in tvz except it's called mech. Really hope mech dies down soon as it's so god damn boring to watch.
Mvp mech was the shit though. That's honestly the type of style I'm okay with in SC2, despite there being an extreme lack of real positional play.
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People just want to see the Tornado Terran again.
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Swarmhost is one of the best units the expansion has produced.
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I'd be perfectly okay with Swarm Hosts countering mech, so long as mech in turn was a thorough counter to another popular zerg playstyle. There are plenty of changes that could help contribute to a sort of... I don't want to use the term "rock-paper-scizzors", but it would be at least a mildly effective counter system in place. Specific zerg styles could soft counter mech, or soft counter bio, or soft-counter bio-mech, and specific terran compositions could slightly harder counter those zerg styles in turn, considering that Terran has a harder time switching tech.
For example, if Siege Tanks had the damage of their BW counterpart, it would be hard to imagine Roach-based compositions being so effective against mech without necessitating teching up to Vipers. If Hellbats had 5/3 as much HP as Hellions (instead of 3/2), had 1 default armor, and had a splash damage cone radius of 90, rather than 45, then Hellbat-Thor comps would wreck Zergling Muta, until the zerg could get Brood Lords out. If Infestor damage was buffed to 36 or to the even more extreme 36 + 12 armored, Infestor ling-bling comps would beat Terran bio more often than not, necessitating a switch to bio-mech.
The Swarm Host is perfectly capable of settling into a role, even a role where it counters a playstyle that we all hold so dear to our hearts. However, the game around it must have this role open, and acceptable for a unit to fill it, otherwise the Swarm Host will remain hated and marginalized.
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Compare swarm hosts with tempests. Both are high range units which let you make some free damage from the distance.
Blizzard made just a much better work with tempests. They are used not only to counter massive air units, but in general you add some (not too many) in lategame because they cost little supply and are a useful addition to your army (for example in PvT).
Swarm hosts, instead, are a unit which the more you have, the better it is, because they beat every ground army which isn't fast enough to dodge locust waves, and only terran bio can do that (outside ZvZ).
If someone makes 20 tempests, you just need a good amount of anti air to beat them, although they can shoot back because their dps is very low. If someone builds 30 swarm hosts, you know you won't ever win an engagement against them whatever composition you build.
Overall they are way too strong. I suggest nerfing hard locust's spawn cooldown.
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damn i hate swarm hosts. so boring to watch and so boring to play against. or with, for that matter.
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1. There are at most a few of them on the field and they are strong and do significant damage or provide good support for the caster or army. (e.g. WC3 Archmage's water elemental or Crypt Lord's Carrion beetles)
You mean like: "There can only be two of them. They will die before the next two pop!" check!
Problem with SH is that it does not work the way they wanted it to work. It was intended as a Zerg siege unit that you use offensively and that the opponent wants to come out and play against. (not sure if this is even possible to make work unless you hit a perfectly balanced power window)
Instead it is a unit that either dies horribly to a moveout or the opponents best way to play against them simply becomes to prevent any damage being taken from the units it spawns - which basically equals becoming unpenetrable against everything anyways. Though as a Zerg I gotta point out the other way too, if it wasn't for swarm hosts, any Terran or Protoss would turtle even harder than they do against SHs, since their turtlearmies are just as strong. And the build up of them would still be equally boring, assuming any zerg would even stay in a game after 15mins.
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Swarm Hosts are garbage. The problem is not at all that they are OP (if they even are), but a few other reasons. Namely they don't really fill a significant niche/demand , and they make games extremely slow/boring/stagnant.
Swarm Guardians already have long range and already create little critters with timed life. Infestors already create resource-free rechargable ranged units. Zerglings are already swarmy fodder units, roaches are already short-mid ranged tanky units. Back when locusts could attack air that also really overlapped with the hydralisk as well.
All they need(ed) to do to get swarm host functionality would be to buff/tweak infested terrans; make them shorter lifespan, faster, more health, and maybe affected by upgrades again.
Even then, I'm not a fan of disposable units that zerg has. Brood war's zerg was awesome and unique, and it focused on having really great units which were somewhat fragile but very powerful (scourge, lurker, defilier, infested terran). In SC2 they kinda protossified zerg a bit via adding heals and disposable units and more A-movey/tanky units.
On January 11 2014 06:48 Pontius Pirate wrote:
For example, if Siege Tanks had the damage of their BW counterpart
Siege tanks did deal quite a bit more damage in the distant past.
But regarding BW, while siege tanks dealt 70 damage, it was per 3.1 real seconds on fastest setting. In SC2 they shoot every 2 seconds on faster[, the fastest] setting; this makes SC2 siege tanks considerably higher DPS than BW ones even after it's damage reduction.
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EPT
