• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 06:52
CET 11:52
KST 19:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy7ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool48Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win42026 KungFu Cup Announcement6BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12
StarCraft 2
General
What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw? Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open RSL Season 4 announced for March-April WardiTV Team League Season 10 KSL Week 87
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat Mutation # 516 Specter of Death
Brood War
General
RepMastered™: replay sharing and analyzer site mca64Launcher - New Version with StarCraft: Remast ASL21 General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Soulkey's decision to leave C9
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro24 Group C [ASL21] Ro24 Group B 2026 Changsha Offline Cup [ASL21] Ro24 Group A
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Cricket [SPORT] Formula 1 Discussion Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2548 users

Mineral saturation alteration proclamation

Blogs > Pontius Pirate
Post a Reply
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-03 01:54:40
January 03 2014 01:53 GMT
#1
I'm sure we've all heard about the issues with the preeminence of the "3-base economy". This usually refers to the tendency of sets of 8, 16, and 24 workers to max out at extremely regular intervals of minerals per minute income. 8 workers on a standard base has 330 minerals per minute of income. 16 has exactly double this, at 660 per minute. Only at 24 do we see a marginal decrease in efficiency. 816 minerals per minute is only about 23.5% better than 16 workers on a base.

Why is this a problem? Defender's advantage. The oft-quoted, frequently misunderstood byword, mentioned in hushed voices on the strategy forums, and in screeching, incoherent rants by BW elitists on LR threads. It is often mentioned that BW had a more thorough and more elegant application of this holy grail of strategy theories. 30% chance of missing a shot to the high ground, huge pathing issues associated with ascending a ramp, stronger Siege Tanks, the existence of Lurkers, Reavers, etc... Why wouldn't these work in SC2?

Do you remember Ohana? Cloud Kingdom? Entombed Valley? A very strong defender's advantage in SC2 usually leads to 3-base turtle fests, hour long stand-offs, and worst of all, Protoss victories! No one likes watching those. How did Brood War avoid these problems? Brilliantly designed units? Flawless balance? Self-important fans? Terrible pathing? Mature metagame and mapmaking scene?

No, no, no, sort of, and no. It was due to the benefits that map control gave in BW. Back in the days of 360p spectator gaming, base saturation worked very differently than it does now. Simply put, 6 bases with 8 workers each would give a player more income than a player with 3 bases with 16 workers each. At an additional cost to supply (and therefore, a smaller maxed-out army) a turtling player (usually a Terran, as it tended to be) could go up to full saturation on their 2 or 3 bases, which was usually thought of as between 2.5 and 3.1 workers per patch; usually it was on the higher end of that number if they were planning on expanding. This enabled them to make a sacrifice of running out of bases sooner in a macro game, having a less supply-heavy army, and having minerals lines more vulnerable to splash damage harassment. This was in exchange for a temporarily roughly equivalent income to an opponent on more bases, maintaining a base architecture and strategic positioning that was more resistant to counterattacks, and investing fewer resources into expensive CCs/Hatheries/Nexii and the supporting defensive structures necessary to defend them, thus allowing more minerals to be dumped into attacking units.

There is a famous picture that has floated among the forums that explains this in a clean visual way that it difficult to explain with words and numbers: mining scalability. Some posters have theorized methods of ameliorating this issue with test maps, such as this one: Breaking 3 base.

While they have toyed with the notion of an elegant solution quite admirably, they are misguided in these efforts. An awkward problem demands an awkward solution. Nearly all of the solutions so far have had to do with either A. mining time per mineral patch, B. worker acceleration, deceleration speed, or C. repositioning minerals + Show Spoiler +
credit to SluggyDeezy
. While C should be commended for both thinking outside of the box, and also for being the only solution that can work merely by changing mapmaking tendencies (rather than the core game of SC2 itself), A and B do not function properly. To be specific with their problems, they simply change the number that optimal saturation occurs at, rather than the overall curve itself.

If you've read this far, you probably know what's going to come next. That's right, yet another suggestion for altering mineral collection so that it makes large numbers of bases on medium supply of workers equal the collection rate of medium numbers of bases with a large supply of workers.

What is needed
1. a noticeable curve between the mining rate per worker of two "unsaturated" values
2. maintaining the marginal decrease in efficiency between 16 workers' and 24 workers' worth of saturation.
3. similar total mining rates during the early and early-mid game, so as to avoid completely ruining any semblance of balance.

My proposal
A awkward, inelegant piecewise function! Yes, it sounds clumsy. But clumsy, yet fun to watch is a much better situation than elegant, yet turtly and boring. I propose giving mineral patches that have just been mined a 7 in-game second delay before delivering their full 5 minerals per trip again. If they are mined during this time, they will only cough up 4 minerals during said harvesting. This means that after the 5.4 second time to harvest minerals, there will be a 1.6 second period where any workers harvesting a recently-mined patch will return with 20% fewer minerals than normal. At 12 workers, the minerals per minute rate will be roughly 462, rather than the 495 it would be normally. At 16 workers, it would be 594, instead of 660. At 24, it gets even more noticeable in absolute numbers, yet not much more marginally significant, with ~718 minerals per minute, as opposed to 816 normally. This is about 88% as much as normal mining rates, compared with 90% of normal mining rates for 16 workers and 100% of normal mining rates for 8 workers.

The overall slightly slower mining rates also discourage players somewhat from waiting until 200 supply to move out. Why? Because they're likely to take about 10% longer to max out, thanks to these mining rates. In a 15-minute max game, that's equal to about one and a half more minutes. That's one and a half more minutes that an aggressive opponent has to put pressure on you while you refuse to play the game of Starcraft.

Don't like the idea of slowing the game down? An alternative proposal is to make the default mineral cargo 6, but keep the cargo of 4 during the 7-second harvesting cooldown. This makes the mineral efficiency gap between 8 and 16 workers even more severe, thus encouraging expansion over increasing saturation even more. On the other hand, it also encourages early game rushes. Here is some of the math, for comparison.
8 workers: 396 minerals per minute
12 workers: 528 minerals per minute
16 workers: 660 minerals per minute, aka the same as it is in vanilla SC2
24 workers: 785 minerals per minute

Here is a chart detailing this, although I couldn't figure out how to cleanly demonstrate space between 8, 12, 16, and 24 on that program: Minerals per minute.

As you can see, the absolute rates of even such an extreme proposal as this are not even quite as high as the game's normal rates. However, the early game will progress faster, as unsaturated mining will be more lucrative, and very fast expansions, if they can be held, will be even more rewarding than they already are.

***
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
Pangpootata
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1838 Posts
January 03 2014 03:44 GMT
#2
Nice detailed analysis. But changing the way economy works will change the whole structure of the game and Blizzard is not likely to do this in a patch, although they might consider it for LoTV.

However, providing diminishing returns for economic investments will actually lead to a greater propensity for all-ins. Look at it this way: a person going allin has to make things happen quickly or they will fall behind in economy, but with this new economic system, the defender's lead in economy is trimmed and hence his chance of fending off the allin decreases. This doesn't happen in BW, but does in SC2 because SC2 doesn't have terrain-wise defenders' advatage like BW's chance to miss when shooting up cliffs. Your proposed changes to the way economy works will increase the strength of allins and shift the balance of the game.

While we would like to see more BW-esque gameplay, we must recognise that some changes will lead to unforseen problems becuase of other aspects of SC2 that are different from BW. Most of BW's inherent defender's advantage comes from the way terrain works while SC2's comes from the way economy works.
Azzur
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia6260 Posts
January 03 2014 04:35 GMT
#3
In my opinion, it is not worker saturation that is the main difference. In BW, getting a 200/200 army was more difficult than a 200/200 in SC2. The reason was that unit supplies were alot lower in BW.

Since a 200/200 army in BW was "bigger" than a 200/200 in SC2, players could afford to devote more "workers" (i.e. workers as a proportion to the army) to the other bases and hence having more bases gave an economic advantage. In contrast, if a player devoted too many workers to their 6-bases in SC2, their army would end up pitifully small. If SC2 increased the supply limit to 300/300 or even 400/400 I bet we would see much more expanding.
Pontius Pirate
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United States1557 Posts
January 03 2014 05:29 GMT
#4
On January 03 2014 13:35 Azzur wrote:
If SC2 increased the supply limit to 300/300 or even 400/400 I bet we would see much more expanding.

How difficult would it be to gather high-level players to test something like this?
"I had to close the door so my parents wouldn't judge me." - ZombieGrub during the ShitfaceTradeTV stream
Housemd
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1407 Posts
January 03 2014 06:43 GMT
#5
On January 03 2014 14:29 Pontius Pirate wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2014 13:35 Azzur wrote:
If SC2 increased the supply limit to 300/300 or even 400/400 I bet we would see much more expanding.

How difficult would it be to gather high-level players to test something like this?


I've heard a lot things like this but won't the main issue be about how the computers will handle something like this? For example, you will have games that go 300/300 and 400/400 and increasing the supply will be a major detriment to casual players since they just won't be able to support computers that can run these type of battles. Micro would be extremely difficult. Even now, when a player makes 100 lings, runs them around, the FPS drops dramatically.
Fantasy is a beast
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Afreeca Starleague
10:00
Ro24 Group C
hero vs YSC
Larva vs Shine
Afreeca ASL 7087
StarCastTV_EN214
Liquipedia
Replay Cast
09:00
KungFu Cup 2026 Week 1
CranKy Ducklings131
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 134
ProTech125
Rex 7
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 11258
Sea 10474
Jaedong 2660
Horang2 1485
Mini 887
EffOrt 555
Zeus 426
actioN 367
ZerO 343
Pusan 292
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 182
Mind 120
Leta 119
Last 97
ToSsGirL 67
Light 67
Rush 64
Sharp 62
Backho 57
Aegong 54
Barracks 26
Bale 22
GoRush 20
sorry 16
Terrorterran 15
ajuk12(nOOB) 14
Sacsri 12
Noble 7
Dota 2
Gorgc1160
XaKoH 427
BananaSlamJamma371
XcaliburYe162
febbydoto9
Counter-Strike
olofmeister1372
shoxiejesuss1221
Other Games
singsing1692
Liquid`RaSZi736
ceh9577
XBOCT305
crisheroes188
Fuzer 168
Sick93
B2W.Neo72
ArmadaUGS16
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 220
Other Games
gamesdonequick192
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream65
StarCraft: Brood War
lovetv 11
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 37
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP4
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 3
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
Kung Fu Cup
8m
WardiTV33
Rex7
Replay Cast
13h 8m
KCM Race Survival
22h 8m
The PondCast
23h 8m
WardiTV Team League
1d 1h
OSC
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 13h
WardiTV Team League
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Cure vs Zoun
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Team League
3 days
[ Show More ]
Platinum Heroes Events
3 days
BSL
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs Maru
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
WardiTV Team League
4 days
BSL
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs Calm
Royal vs Mind
Wardi Open
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
OSC
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Rush vs PianO
Flash vs Speed
Replay Cast
6 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
BeSt vs Leta
Queen vs Jaedong
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-23
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
NationLESS Cup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

2026 Changsha Offline CUP
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.