|
9334 Posts
I play alot of support, yes i do! I like choosing a hero that can have some gamechanging impact from early until lategame. Items, who needs 'm except forcestaff! So, I started playing support because there never was any in my public games. Crystal Maiden became my favorite hero because she had a nice aura that allways delivered, no matter what.
Everything was dandy. I even went so far to train on creepstacking in the jungle during laningphase, because thats what the pro's do. Eventually, i came back on that decision because i'd noticed that i stacked 3 freakin camps atleast 3 times and nobody farmed them, except eventually the enemy antimage. It wasnt effective or efficient in my public games. Maybe my hidden rating was so low, that most teammates don't even understand the concept of creepstacking. Or maybe they shit on progames and just wanna have fun with rikidagon. So, i slowly had to change my way of playing support. I like inventing my own playstyles and strats so i was happy. I chose to try deny & harras tactics only and called it......... "gorilla-maiden", haha Yes, it would be different then what u see on twitch but it could work well in the public' 2-1-2 games. And it did, my winrate was climbing steadily. At this moment I have around 70% winrate over 80 games with Crystal Maiden alone. My other supporthero's have about the same winrate as Crystal Maiden with the same harras tactics. My average winrate is just below 50%, it seems i am a bad carry and a bad ganker. In general i could assume that at my level, these tactics have proven themselves to help secure wins for my team when i play a supporthero.
But one week ago something horrible happened: "ranked matchmaking"! I played 9 out of 10 games with my favorite Crystal Maiden hero and as i expected, i won more then half of them with a volatile KDA and ended up with a MMR of approxiate 2500. Not to shavy. I didnt have any MMR expectations prehand because the MMR from dota2 doesnt say anything (yet). There are no leagues in dota2 like in sc2, so the number is meaningless to most people and players. Yes, its debate-able i know, but hopefully you understand the thoughtproces behind my remark. I guess i will never evolve in a dendiboss and i am fine with that. But it would be nice, if i could ever reach that level where my teammates understand the concept of creepstacking and reward your efforts into clearing the freaking camps!
So, in general, this is not a bitching blog about Gabe Newels' new fancy dota-MMR-system (and where the fuck is freakin' halflife 3, jeez man, rate that delay! ). Seriously, it would be nice if I can get to a MMR-level, if it even exsists, where i can try to copy some pro-support decisionmaking and tactics that my teammates will understand and utilize if i preformed them well.
If someone reads this blog and knows alot about playing support at low and high MM-ratings, be kind and try to answer one or more questions below. Maybe it will help support, more supports ingame, so that we dont have to play the standard "4 hard carry + 1 support 2-1-2 strategy" all the time.
1. Did u as a supportplayer get a descent MM-rating from Gabe Newel? Could it be that most supports automatically get lower ratings then standard carry or gankers?
2. What are your general tactics in a solo 2-1-2 public game at low and high MMratings? What items do u prefer and in what order? Do u buy coerier, ward and deward in a 2-1-2 pubstrat with u being the only support on your team? How did u go about it to get a higher rating then i do in soloqeue?
Dont forget to breathe after reading through this "great wall of chinal", it's important!
  
|
when i support, i am usually the sole support and i get courier/wards tango, salve, and mana pot as my first items.
However, I dont like supporting when the carries suck shit, so I am very weary of playing support, even though I do prefer it to carry, if you want to win a pub game, 9 times out of 01 you need to go carry
|
On December 19 2013 08:03 Smurfett3 wrote:
when i support, i am usually the sole support and i get courier/wards tango, salve, and mana pot as my first items.
However, I dont like supporting when the carries suck shit, so I am very weary of playing support, even though I do prefer it to carry, if you want to win a pub game, 9 times out of 01 you need to go carry
I've found the exact opposite...it's much easier to win games when you're a support than a carry. You can get early game kills, you control the map presence, you don't need to rely on farm to be effective, and you never have to worry about someone else screwing up your last-hitting.
|
The thing is with this matchmaking system that not everybody is on the same lvl. Im 3600 party, solo yet to come and in a game in which we told eachother our mmr, i was surprised to see that i was with 3 people <2800 and with one who was 3500. The thing is, I played a support wr that game and me and qop(the other 3500) kinda won the early game. Yet then there carries came online our medusa had a midas and 2000 gold 20 minuts in after dying painfully mutch. Even after i typed: medusa care for arrow, mirana is ganking us she still stood still to cs and got caught by one. And so on. The point is, you can shakle all you want, but shit is going to happen if your carry doesnt carry. The other way around however is possible. Qop was doing rather well at ganking and could have snowballed.
Thats what i sometimes hate about playing support. On the other hand i really like to be able to create space. To not be stuck to your lane and go for those ganks, play activly. And sometimes i snowball so hard on a support alch or visage that im actually carrying which is nice but very rare. So that are my 2 cents about supporting i guess.
So about the mmr rating thing, sometimes in a hard game, you score will not be so nice as a support. Lets take wr for example, a shakle will not grand you a assist. Yet it can be the gamechanger, the winning move. So the impact on your game is not always shown in your kda. Therefore you might get a lower score then the carry who is 25-15-x on the end of the game in comparesen to your 3-15-(30) ofcourse this is a bit random. But im sure icefrog will also watch the amount of time stunned, amount of heal, amount of damgae and that kind of stuff. So I dont know the actual impact of this.
Often i do buy courier and ward, yet i really like to get a smoke and go for mid after a few minuts. I dont know wheter the smoke helps but he, pro's do it. I try to stack the hardcamp a few times and pull if i cant heras/zone out. THats what i do i lane, but also gank the fuck out of other lanes. Just going for these kind of plays can really make a game.
|
I call my self Christmas Tree and always play Treant Protector. I constantly scan the map and heal people as soon as they need it. I make use of my Starcraft abilities in this way so that I can multitask and be aware of everything going on. I save a lot of lives and it feels good. I have about a 60 percent win rate or something in pub games cause I heal like a boss. The only time I lose is when I get complete morons on the team. Can't save em all I guess.
|
In drafted games I tend to play supports like rubick, vs, cm, tide, sk (unless there's a dp, bh, or ds in the draft) so I guess I"m like 2/3 support. I'm also at ~4k rating so this is about where people start generally knowing how to play the game and are okay at it.
IMO, more than items or anything, good movement is what makes a good support so strong. Early game, carries are just trying to farm but supports have so many options, stack the jungle, pull for xp, harass/zone the enemy out of lane, guard runes, smoke gank mid, etc.. You have to know which option to pick because pubs tend to have less communication; you have to decide what actions will give your team the most benefit.
If your lanes are all winning, maybe you get greedy and afk jungle pull to get levels and let your carry get solo xp. Maybe your mid hero needs to snowball early to do anything so you abandon your carry to smoke gank mid. Maybe you have a sven or gyro type hero, you can start stacking ancients or jungle early to have it pay off later.
Note that picking the wrong option has consequences. Fail a smoke on mid while your carry gets harassed out of lane and it's no good. As you mentioned, stacking a camp only to have the enemy steal it is worse for your team than not stacking at all (usually I ping it until the carry gets the picture). Go off to ward/deward at the wrong time and you can just feed.
This is not easy, but actively thinking about this improved my support play a lot. Too many supports in the lower tiers kinda just sit in the lane they are assigned to babysit regardless of how their lane partner is doing. Thinking about all the options you have and trying things out will lose you some games, but as you practice more your decision making should improve and your skill level will improve likewise.
Edit: As an addendum, I am by no means a pro support (some would say there are only 2 pro supports in NA) and am actively trying to improve my support play as well. Gold management is something I haven't covered because, frankly, I'm really bad at managing gold as a support, maybe someone can give some advice with regards to balancing gold spent on wards/detection with items and when to buy a gem etc.
|
I find that a lot of players will go farm the stacked camps if you ping/tell them to get their attention.
Also remember that your hero is more than just a lane support. You need to make kills happen and be involved in a lot of the kills too. In lower level pubs this means that more than often you're the one that has to take initiative and set up kills, because otherwise the core heroes on your team usually tunnel vision and just farm the lane for as long as they can.
If you minimize deaths and maximize kill participation, you can end up with a lot of 4-1-20 kind of records.
|
to answer the question about "can supports get a good rating?"
yep they can, i got like a 3000ish rating, by randoming or directly pick supports (CM or WD)
and the best part is, when you loose you can blame the carries since you are just a little support who wards and such 
|
Bearded Elder29904 Posts
Pick Earth Spirit and go roam around once You hit level 3 = profit.
|
9334 Posts
First of all thx for all the answers
Maybe I harras/zoneout for a longer duration in the early game then most supports that reacted to this post. It seems u guys roam for ganks earlier then i do and also buy more consumeables to support this playstyle.
Until now, I focused on lanecontrol and getting the gold to my carry. Smoke wasnt in my standard kit either, so maybe i should try that some more to discover the possibilities of that. At level 3 most supports could have 2 levels in a usefull ganking spell, is this a good timing to try to smokegank on mid? Is it even possible to gank mid with solosmoke+your own midhero or should i allways ask another hero from the other lane to help out for a 3way gank on mid?
In most of my games I ended up with TQ-boots, a mekanism and a forcestaff on most supporthero's. Lategame i would try to build a bkb, but in 99% of my games i didnt get to finish the bkb. Maybe i should not be so greedy in the early game, if i buy more consumeables earlier, an urn seems to make more sence because it is alot cheaper then a mekanism and could synergize better with a more ganking oriented crystal maiden?
|
On December 19 2013 08:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2013 08:03 Smurfett3 wrote:
when i support, i am usually the sole support and i get courier/wards tango, salve, and mana pot as my first items.
However, I dont like supporting when the carries suck shit, so I am very weary of playing support, even though I do prefer it to carry, if you want to win a pub game, 9 times out of 01 you need to go carry I've found the exact opposite...it's much easier to win games when you're a support than a carry. You can get early game kills, you control the map presence, you don't need to rely on farm to be effective, and you never have to worry about someone else screwing up your last-hitting.
its nice and all until.....you hit that one game where NONE, and I repeat NONE of your carries know how to farm. Unfortunately all the hard work you do as support is no longer relevant, as if the other team has some carries that know how to farm and last hit, then your kinda screwed
|
Depends on the mid hero and your own hero and how your own lane is doing you know? Some heroes, all you need is level 1 to get a gank off with the mid hero, I have gotten a number of first bloods just by smoking at level 1 with vengeful, grabbing rune and setting up a kill mid with dd/haste or something. If you feel you and the mid hero will need help with the gank, asking for help from the other support is an option but more often than not, a single support is all that is needed to get a successful gank off.
As far as items go, usually force staff, medallion, mek, ghost scepter, urn, sometimes drums are items I would consider. And obviously wards and detection asap for invis heroes. Try to judge which items your team will need the most and don't go into each match with a set item build.
|
9334 Posts
Well i tried 3 games so far with the new tactics i borrowed from u all and it kinda works, 2 wins 1 loss. Feels a bit akward still, but i'm getting the hang of it. Judging what to do is indeed the hardest part with so many options, so much doubt sometimes
I start out with coerier, wards, tangos and a stick. I wardblock the enemy's small camp and 1 runespot. I go to my lane and at level 3 i buy wards+smoke and go gank mid after checking the runespot. Ive had the invis rune twice around lvl 3, it's a 100% kill if mid and myself have enough mana. After that i ward other rune and try gank on opposite lane. I'm gonna do this alot more at lvl3. Its like the team can snowball from just a couple of early support rotation ganks, ive seen that twice. In all games i ended up with a wand, tqboots and a forcestaff. Some games even an ogreclub, if i was freakin rich.
I lost too a beefy aggro rightclick draft (ursa, treant, huskar, kotl and viper). Felt like an anti cm draft but i still died less then most of my teammates, but i didnt get the same kills as deaths so my performance could have been better. The poisons and beefyness was hard too handle. Anyone have an idea how u could counter this itemvariation on squishy supporthero's, maybe ogreclub before forcestaff?
It is even more fun playing this way, alot more action, haha.
|
On December 20 2013 04:52 govie wrote:Well i tried 3 games so far with the new tactics i borrowed from u all and it kinda works, 2 wins 1 loss. Feels a bit akward still, but i'm getting the hang of it. Judging what to do is indeed the hardest part with so many options, so much doubt sometimes I start out with coerier, wards, tangos and a stick. I wardblock the enemy's small camp and 1 runespot. I go to my lane and at level 3 i buy wards+smoke and go gank mid after checking the runespot. Ive had the invis rune twice around lvl 3, it's a 100% kill if mid and myself have enough mana. After that i ward other rune and try gank on opposite lane. I'm gonna do this alot more at lvl3. Its like the team can snowball from just a couple of early support rotation ganks, ive seen that twice. In all games i ended up with a wand, tqboots and a forcestaff. Some games even an ogreclub, if i was freakin rich. I lost too a beefy aggro rightclick draft (ursa, treant, huskar, kotl and viper). Felt like an anti cm draft but i still died less then most of my teammates, but i didnt get the same kills as deaths so my performance could have been better. The poisons and beefyness was hard too handle. Anyone have an idea how u could counter this itemvariation on squishy supporthero's, maybe ogreclub before forcestaff? It is even more fun playing this way, alot more action, haha.
ghost sceptor destroys auto attacking capabilities. ALso you shouldnt be grading your performance on kd ratio on a support..it should be da (deaths to assists)
|
try to kill enemies on ur lane, after u do so gank other lanes and make sure u kill them, buy necro3. ALWAYS BUY NECRO3, i bet ppl in ur skill bracket cant handle necro3.
if u want to transcend everyone in the game play like this cm http://dotabuff.com/matches/351002633.
|
|
|
i supported my way through the 10 games and ended up at 3660. It isn't just about whether you win or not in those games its looking at the play style using a similar fantasy point style used in TI3 i believe.
|
9334 Posts
Doner0, it could well be, but once your past the 10 calibritionmatches its feels more about wins/losses and less if u played well as an individual. I thought your old hidden mmr was also used to determine the ranked mmr shown after calibration. Maybe the calibrationmatches were skillaudits for your old hidden mmr or/and your hidden mmr was used as a foundation to calculate your ranked mmr.
Ofcourse, i did look at my crystal maiden playstyle after because 2500 is not to shavy. I just try to improve my supportplay anyway i can to get that rating above 4000. Thats why i wrote the blog, atleast i try to analyze why my rating was lower and try to get better! I am changing it up atm, even less farming and items and more consumeables and aggro. Lets say i can win more then i loose, chances are i will be above 4000 sooner then i might even think. Certainly if i could maintain my current winrate for as long as possible
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
