• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 09:23
CET 15:23
KST 23:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets0$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7)12Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns7[BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 103SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-1822
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Jan 5-11): Clem wins big offline, Trigger upsets Weekly Cups (Dec 29-Jan 4): Protoss rolls, 2v2 returns Spontaneous hotkey change zerg Chinese SC2 server to reopen; live all-star event in Hangzhou SC2 All-Star Invitational: Jan 17-18
Tourneys
$21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) WardiTV Winter Cup WardiTV Mondays SC2 AI Tournament 2026 OSC Season 13 World Championship
Strategy
Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 508 Violent Night Mutation # 507 Well Trained Mutation # 506 Warp Zone Mutation # 505 Rise From Ashes
Brood War
General
I would like to say something about StarCraft Potential ASL qualifier breakthroughs? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] Grand Finals - Sunday 21:00 CET [BSL21] Non-Korean Championship - Starts Jan 10 SLON Grand Finals – Season 2
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Awesome Games Done Quick 2026! Mechabellum Beyond All Reason Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List TL+ Announced
Blogs
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Physical Exercise (HIIT) Bef…
TrAiDoS
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1436 users

MOBA & SC2 Mindset crossover, "imaginary player"

Blogs > Surili
Post a Reply
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 15 2013 10:51 GMT
#1
So i wrote a piece that tried to incorporate the ideas of "the imaginary player" for both MOBA and SC2 players, in order to show low level players HOW TO THINK about strategies, and i didn't know where to get feedback from good players about it, so i thought i'd post it here.

My thoughts on SC2John's excellent post (look in the spoiler), so that MOBA players can see that it is relevant to them too. I will use an SC2 example at the bottom to help those who play both games:

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435534


The art of the imaginary player, and knowing WHEN and HOW you plan to win:

This is where due to unknown information you have to make wide decisions that incorporate all potentials.

The first thing this requires is a large amount of understanding and experience of the game itself.

Then how does this apply? Think about team drafting.

The important skill for the player(s) picking is to be able to work out any potential builds (strategies/game plans) the other team is trying to do as they pick their hero. To give an example from dota (and i'd appreciate a good lol player giving a lol example, as i'm sure it applies):
After the 3rd pick, the other team has chosen venge, luna and dazzle.

There are lots of possibilities from here.
One of those possibilities might be that they plan on running an aura team. However, due to the dazzle pick this might not be that obvious. There is still a lot of information that is unavailable.

They might just like venge and luna, and are going to go ahead and try to play what i like to call pub-standard, 2-1-2, where people pick heroes that work well as a combo for laning and don't think about the wider plan.

What is important here in the context of the imaginary player is not to think about what they are ACTUALLY thinking. Only what they COULD be thinking, no matter how likely. Sure, near the bottom of the ladder they might just be picking heroes/champions based on what they feel like doing, but that doesn't matter, because at BEST they will do a shitty version of what you are thinking about. React based on their best possible decision, while leaving yourself open to a wider set of choices.

The key here is to RULE OUT STRATEGIES. In this example, we KNOW they aren't doing a mass aoe team fight winning team. So you don't need to pick warlock to fuck up a potential enigma pick. Sure, they MIGHT pick enigma, but in this team enigma would be BAD, so don't prepare for it, a normal, well rounded team will crush this hard regardless. A good idea might be to pick a caster heavy team and try to dominate the early mid game will high burst spells vs his low hp, low burst team. The key here would be to win in the mid game.

This is why the logic that less good starcraft players use when they say: "Ah, but scouting in gold league doesn't matter because they might just be doing stupid things" is bad logic.

To give another concrete example: I scout a Terran who has taken double gas before expanding and put 3 in each geyser. I immediately rule out a bio push with early stim but no medivacs. I have had players say to me, but he MIGHT still push and just not use his gas. Yes that is true. And if he does it will be 3 minutes late and with almost no units. In the mean time, your preparation for a 1-1-1 or helbat/mine drop was much more effective, and the units you built to deal with that are enough to hold off his much delayed push.


I hope this hasn't been too all over the place and it has been helpful in clarifying thoughts you probably have already had but not been able to put into words.

The world is ending what should we do about it?
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
November 15 2013 20:39 GMT
#2
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 16 2013 00:58 GMT
#3
On November 16 2013 05:39 mizU wrote:
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"


A burst damage strategy is actually really strong against that as well. Especially against the heroes i suggested, especially if they were teamed with a high hp decent initiator str hero like clockwerk or axe for instance, especially if built for high physical defence, as no hero will die fast on the defending team, and the enigma team would simply fail to kill anything except maybe the initiator, and the rest of the initiator's team would insta gib each of the low hp high physical damage pushing team.

I also quite dislike Enigma in pushing teams, as his minions feed a lot of gold, as well has having an ultimate that is designed for AOE team fights not individual physical damage dealing, while i like pushing teams that are either mass healer or mass minions. My personal favourite pushing team is probably Chen, Dazzle, LoA, Warlock, and then the last is flexible, krobelus is a good pick.
The world is ending what should we do about it?
HolyExlxF
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
November 16 2013 06:39 GMT
#4
I agree. Thinking the former panders to the ideal of the worst of your opponents, and I don't think it's smart to play assuming your opposition's poor play.
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Wardi Open
14:00
#69
WardiTV1127
Rex154
Liquipedia
RongYI Cup
11:00
Qualifier 2
OGKoka 310
BRAT_OK 108
3DClanTV 39
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko487
OGKoka 310
Rex 154
BRAT_OK 108
Harstem 47
StarCraft: Brood War
Rain 4376
Larva 1152
Horang2 957
Hyuk 740
Mini 707
EffOrt 666
BeSt 581
ZerO 456
Snow 442
Light 429
[ Show more ]
ggaemo 354
actioN 350
firebathero 175
Soma 139
Barracks 138
Zeus 126
Pusan 115
JYJ 106
Rush 105
sorry 97
Mind 88
Aegong 84
Sharp 82
Sea.KH 68
Leta 58
Movie 56
910 48
Hyun 41
Free 33
Mong 32
Yoon 29
soO 28
HiyA 25
zelot 22
Terrorterran 21
JulyZerg 16
Noble 14
GoRush 9
ajuk12(nOOB) 8
Rock 7
Bale 6
Sacsri 6
Dota 2
qojqva2051
ODPixel230
XcaliburYe117
Counter-Strike
x6flipin610
markeloff183
Super Smash Bros
Westballz25
Other Games
Gorgc2161
singsing2043
B2W.Neo790
hiko525
crisheroes323
Fuzer 169
Sick153
ZerO(Twitch)11
Pyrionflax0
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick4990
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 1185
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 12 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• naamasc223
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade1560
Upcoming Events
Monday Night Weeklies
3h 7m
WardiTV Invitational
21h 37m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 21h
The PondCast
2 days
OSC
2 days
OSC
3 days
All Star Teams
4 days
INnoVation vs soO
sOs vs Scarlett
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
All Star Teams
5 days
MMA vs DongRaeGu
Rogue vs Oliveira
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
[ Show More ]
OSC
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-01-11
Big Gabe Cup #3
NA Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
OSC Championship Season 13
Underdog Cup #3
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W4
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Rongyi Cup S3
Thunderfire SC2 All-star 2025
Nations Cup 2026
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.