• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 02:27
CET 08:27
KST 16:27
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT29Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8
Community News
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice3Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza1Weekly Cups (Feb 16-22): MaxPax doubles0Weekly Cups (Feb 9-15): herO doubles up2ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0258
StarCraft 2
General
Team Liquid Map Contest - Preparation Notice How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker Weekly Cups (Feb 23-Mar 1): herO doubles, 2v2 bonanza
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SEL Doubles (SC Evo Bimonthly) WardiTV Team League Season 10
Strategy
Custom Maps
Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026] Map Editor closed ?
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 515 Together Forever Mutation # 514 Ulnar New Year Mutation # 513 Attrition Warfare
Brood War
General
It's March 3rd BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ CasterMuse Youtube Recent recommended BW games
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues BWCL Season 64 Announcement The Casual Games of the Week Thread [LIVE] [S:21] ASL Season Open Day 1
Strategy
Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2 Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Zealot bombing is no longer popular?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread Diablo 2 thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread NASA and the Private Sector
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TL MMA Pick'em Pool 2013
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Just Watchers: Why Some Only…
TrAiDoS
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1844 users

MOBA & SC2 Mindset crossover, "imaginary player"

Blogs > Surili
Post a Reply
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 15 2013 10:51 GMT
#1
So i wrote a piece that tried to incorporate the ideas of "the imaginary player" for both MOBA and SC2 players, in order to show low level players HOW TO THINK about strategies, and i didn't know where to get feedback from good players about it, so i thought i'd post it here.

My thoughts on SC2John's excellent post (look in the spoiler), so that MOBA players can see that it is relevant to them too. I will use an SC2 example at the bottom to help those who play both games:

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435534


The art of the imaginary player, and knowing WHEN and HOW you plan to win:

This is where due to unknown information you have to make wide decisions that incorporate all potentials.

The first thing this requires is a large amount of understanding and experience of the game itself.

Then how does this apply? Think about team drafting.

The important skill for the player(s) picking is to be able to work out any potential builds (strategies/game plans) the other team is trying to do as they pick their hero. To give an example from dota (and i'd appreciate a good lol player giving a lol example, as i'm sure it applies):
After the 3rd pick, the other team has chosen venge, luna and dazzle.

There are lots of possibilities from here.
One of those possibilities might be that they plan on running an aura team. However, due to the dazzle pick this might not be that obvious. There is still a lot of information that is unavailable.

They might just like venge and luna, and are going to go ahead and try to play what i like to call pub-standard, 2-1-2, where people pick heroes that work well as a combo for laning and don't think about the wider plan.

What is important here in the context of the imaginary player is not to think about what they are ACTUALLY thinking. Only what they COULD be thinking, no matter how likely. Sure, near the bottom of the ladder they might just be picking heroes/champions based on what they feel like doing, but that doesn't matter, because at BEST they will do a shitty version of what you are thinking about. React based on their best possible decision, while leaving yourself open to a wider set of choices.

The key here is to RULE OUT STRATEGIES. In this example, we KNOW they aren't doing a mass aoe team fight winning team. So you don't need to pick warlock to fuck up a potential enigma pick. Sure, they MIGHT pick enigma, but in this team enigma would be BAD, so don't prepare for it, a normal, well rounded team will crush this hard regardless. A good idea might be to pick a caster heavy team and try to dominate the early mid game will high burst spells vs his low hp, low burst team. The key here would be to win in the mid game.

This is why the logic that less good starcraft players use when they say: "Ah, but scouting in gold league doesn't matter because they might just be doing stupid things" is bad logic.

To give another concrete example: I scout a Terran who has taken double gas before expanding and put 3 in each geyser. I immediately rule out a bio push with early stim but no medivacs. I have had players say to me, but he MIGHT still push and just not use his gas. Yes that is true. And if he does it will be 3 minutes late and with almost no units. In the mean time, your preparation for a 1-1-1 or helbat/mine drop was much more effective, and the units you built to deal with that are enough to hold off his much delayed push.


I hope this hasn't been too all over the place and it has been helpful in clarifying thoughts you probably have already had but not been able to put into words.

The world is ending what should we do about it?
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
November 15 2013 20:39 GMT
#2
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 16 2013 00:58 GMT
#3
On November 16 2013 05:39 mizU wrote:
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"


A burst damage strategy is actually really strong against that as well. Especially against the heroes i suggested, especially if they were teamed with a high hp decent initiator str hero like clockwerk or axe for instance, especially if built for high physical defence, as no hero will die fast on the defending team, and the enigma team would simply fail to kill anything except maybe the initiator, and the rest of the initiator's team would insta gib each of the low hp high physical damage pushing team.

I also quite dislike Enigma in pushing teams, as his minions feed a lot of gold, as well has having an ultimate that is designed for AOE team fights not individual physical damage dealing, while i like pushing teams that are either mass healer or mass minions. My personal favourite pushing team is probably Chen, Dazzle, LoA, Warlock, and then the last is flexible, krobelus is a good pick.
The world is ending what should we do about it?
HolyExlxF
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
November 16 2013 06:39 GMT
#4
I agree. Thinking the former panders to the ideal of the worst of your opponents, and I don't think it's smart to play assuming your opposition's poor play.
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 1h 33m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SortOf 184
Livibee 162
ProTech55
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 37835
Shuttle 337
Tasteless 310
Sharp 186
Hm[arnc] 183
Killer 158
Leta 155
Shine 121
PianO 111
Dewaltoss 81
[ Show more ]
ToSsGirL 27
Backho 24
Free 21
sSak 16
Icarus 12
Rain 0
Dota 2
XaKoH 270
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K953
Other Games
summit1g7632
C9.Mang0309
Mew2King44
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick722
Counter-Strike
PGL129
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH552
• StrangeGG 27
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Stunt560
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
1h 33m
Replay Cast
16h 33m
The PondCast
1d 2h
KCM Race Survival
1d 2h
WardiTV Winter Champion…
1d 4h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
Ultimate Battle
2 days
Light vs ZerO
WardiTV Winter Champion…
2 days
Classic vs Nicoract
herO vs YoungYakov
ByuN vs Gerald
Clem vs Krystianer
Replay Cast
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Winter Champion…
3 days
MaxPax vs Spirit
Bunny vs Rogue
Cure vs SHIN
Solar vs Zoun
Replay Cast
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Monday Night Weeklies
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-03
PiG Sty Festival 7.0
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Jeongseon Sooper Cup
Spring Cup 2026
WardiTV Winter 2026
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 21: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 21: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
CSLAN 4
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
NationLESS Cup
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.