• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 13:42
CET 19:42
KST 03:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced6[BSL21] Ro.16 Group Stage (C->B->A->D)4Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win3RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge2
StarCraft 2
General
BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Nov 17-23): Solar, MaxPax, Clem win Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge
Tourneys
Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest Tenacious Turtle Tussle [Alpha Pro Series] Nice vs Cure RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
Which season is the best in ASL? A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone BW General Discussion soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] GosuLeague T1 Ro16 - Tue & Thu 22:00 CET
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? Current Meta PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread The Perfect Game Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Artificial Intelligence Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Where to ask questions and add stream? The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esports Earnings: Bigger Pri…
TrAiDoS
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1716 users

MOBA & SC2 Mindset crossover, "imaginary player"

Blogs > Surili
Post a Reply
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 15 2013 10:51 GMT
#1
So i wrote a piece that tried to incorporate the ideas of "the imaginary player" for both MOBA and SC2 players, in order to show low level players HOW TO THINK about strategies, and i didn't know where to get feedback from good players about it, so i thought i'd post it here.

My thoughts on SC2John's excellent post (look in the spoiler), so that MOBA players can see that it is relevant to them too. I will use an SC2 example at the bottom to help those who play both games:

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435534


The art of the imaginary player, and knowing WHEN and HOW you plan to win:

This is where due to unknown information you have to make wide decisions that incorporate all potentials.

The first thing this requires is a large amount of understanding and experience of the game itself.

Then how does this apply? Think about team drafting.

The important skill for the player(s) picking is to be able to work out any potential builds (strategies/game plans) the other team is trying to do as they pick their hero. To give an example from dota (and i'd appreciate a good lol player giving a lol example, as i'm sure it applies):
After the 3rd pick, the other team has chosen venge, luna and dazzle.

There are lots of possibilities from here.
One of those possibilities might be that they plan on running an aura team. However, due to the dazzle pick this might not be that obvious. There is still a lot of information that is unavailable.

They might just like venge and luna, and are going to go ahead and try to play what i like to call pub-standard, 2-1-2, where people pick heroes that work well as a combo for laning and don't think about the wider plan.

What is important here in the context of the imaginary player is not to think about what they are ACTUALLY thinking. Only what they COULD be thinking, no matter how likely. Sure, near the bottom of the ladder they might just be picking heroes/champions based on what they feel like doing, but that doesn't matter, because at BEST they will do a shitty version of what you are thinking about. React based on their best possible decision, while leaving yourself open to a wider set of choices.

The key here is to RULE OUT STRATEGIES. In this example, we KNOW they aren't doing a mass aoe team fight winning team. So you don't need to pick warlock to fuck up a potential enigma pick. Sure, they MIGHT pick enigma, but in this team enigma would be BAD, so don't prepare for it, a normal, well rounded team will crush this hard regardless. A good idea might be to pick a caster heavy team and try to dominate the early mid game will high burst spells vs his low hp, low burst team. The key here would be to win in the mid game.

This is why the logic that less good starcraft players use when they say: "Ah, but scouting in gold league doesn't matter because they might just be doing stupid things" is bad logic.

To give another concrete example: I scout a Terran who has taken double gas before expanding and put 3 in each geyser. I immediately rule out a bio push with early stim but no medivacs. I have had players say to me, but he MIGHT still push and just not use his gas. Yes that is true. And if he does it will be 3 minutes late and with almost no units. In the mean time, your preparation for a 1-1-1 or helbat/mine drop was much more effective, and the units you built to deal with that are enough to hold off his much delayed push.


I hope this hasn't been too all over the place and it has been helpful in clarifying thoughts you probably have already had but not been able to put into words.

The world is ending what should we do about it?
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
November 15 2013 20:39 GMT
#2
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 16 2013 00:58 GMT
#3
On November 16 2013 05:39 mizU wrote:
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"


A burst damage strategy is actually really strong against that as well. Especially against the heroes i suggested, especially if they were teamed with a high hp decent initiator str hero like clockwerk or axe for instance, especially if built for high physical defence, as no hero will die fast on the defending team, and the enigma team would simply fail to kill anything except maybe the initiator, and the rest of the initiator's team would insta gib each of the low hp high physical damage pushing team.

I also quite dislike Enigma in pushing teams, as his minions feed a lot of gold, as well has having an ultimate that is designed for AOE team fights not individual physical damage dealing, while i like pushing teams that are either mass healer or mass minions. My personal favourite pushing team is probably Chen, Dazzle, LoA, Warlock, and then the last is flexible, krobelus is a good pick.
The world is ending what should we do about it?
HolyExlxF
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
November 16 2013 06:39 GMT
#4
I agree. Thinking the former panders to the ideal of the worst of your opponents, and I don't think it's smart to play assuming your opposition's poor play.
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
LAN Event
18:00
LANified! 37: Groundswell
Discussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 639
White-Ra 175
Lowko130
Livibee 109
SteadfastSC 99
UpATreeSC 78
Codebar 22
Railgan 16
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 16693
Calm 3807
Rain 2356
Shuttle 923
BeSt 167
Dewaltoss 162
Hyun 160
firebathero 150
Mong 16
IntoTheRainbow 9
Dota 2
Gorgc6508
singsing2781
capcasts24
League of Legends
rGuardiaN49
Counter-Strike
byalli3762
Other Games
FrodaN2751
Beastyqt647
XaKoH 465
crisheroes353
B2W.Neo296
RotterdaM265
DeMusliM233
KnowMe167
Hui .158
ArmadaUGS149
Mew2King71
C9.Mang066
Trikslyr47
MindelVK9
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream141
Other Games
BasetradeTV108
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix7
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler118
• lizZardDota252
• Noizen41
League of Legends
• TFBlade1522
Other Games
• imaqtpie655
• Shiphtur375
• WagamamaTV351
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
4h 19m
Replay Cast
14h 19m
WardiTV Korean Royale
17h 19m
OSC
22h 19m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 15h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 17h
Replay Cast
2 days
Wardi Open
2 days
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
StarCraft2.fi
2 days
[ Show More ]
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
StarCraft2.fi
3 days
Wardi Open
4 days
StarCraft2.fi
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
The PondCast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

SOOP Univ League 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
Slon Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.