• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:42
CEST 02:42
KST 09:42
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?6FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event13Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster14Weekly Cups (June 16-22): Clem strikes back1Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week4
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? How does the number of casters affect your enjoyment of esports? Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview
Tourneys
HomeStory Cup 27 (June 27-29) WardiTV Mondays SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $200 Biweekly - StarCraft Evolution League #1
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady
Brood War
General
BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest ASL20 Preliminary Maps Unit and Spell Similarities
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] ProLeague LB Final - Saturday 20:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Blog #2
tankgirl
Game Sound vs. Music: The Im…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 614 users

MOBA & SC2 Mindset crossover, "imaginary player"

Blogs > Surili
Post a Reply
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 15 2013 10:51 GMT
#1
So i wrote a piece that tried to incorporate the ideas of "the imaginary player" for both MOBA and SC2 players, in order to show low level players HOW TO THINK about strategies, and i didn't know where to get feedback from good players about it, so i thought i'd post it here.

My thoughts on SC2John's excellent post (look in the spoiler), so that MOBA players can see that it is relevant to them too. I will use an SC2 example at the bottom to help those who play both games:

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435534


The art of the imaginary player, and knowing WHEN and HOW you plan to win:

This is where due to unknown information you have to make wide decisions that incorporate all potentials.

The first thing this requires is a large amount of understanding and experience of the game itself.

Then how does this apply? Think about team drafting.

The important skill for the player(s) picking is to be able to work out any potential builds (strategies/game plans) the other team is trying to do as they pick their hero. To give an example from dota (and i'd appreciate a good lol player giving a lol example, as i'm sure it applies):
After the 3rd pick, the other team has chosen venge, luna and dazzle.

There are lots of possibilities from here.
One of those possibilities might be that they plan on running an aura team. However, due to the dazzle pick this might not be that obvious. There is still a lot of information that is unavailable.

They might just like venge and luna, and are going to go ahead and try to play what i like to call pub-standard, 2-1-2, where people pick heroes that work well as a combo for laning and don't think about the wider plan.

What is important here in the context of the imaginary player is not to think about what they are ACTUALLY thinking. Only what they COULD be thinking, no matter how likely. Sure, near the bottom of the ladder they might just be picking heroes/champions based on what they feel like doing, but that doesn't matter, because at BEST they will do a shitty version of what you are thinking about. React based on their best possible decision, while leaving yourself open to a wider set of choices.

The key here is to RULE OUT STRATEGIES. In this example, we KNOW they aren't doing a mass aoe team fight winning team. So you don't need to pick warlock to fuck up a potential enigma pick. Sure, they MIGHT pick enigma, but in this team enigma would be BAD, so don't prepare for it, a normal, well rounded team will crush this hard regardless. A good idea might be to pick a caster heavy team and try to dominate the early mid game will high burst spells vs his low hp, low burst team. The key here would be to win in the mid game.

This is why the logic that less good starcraft players use when they say: "Ah, but scouting in gold league doesn't matter because they might just be doing stupid things" is bad logic.

To give another concrete example: I scout a Terran who has taken double gas before expanding and put 3 in each geyser. I immediately rule out a bio push with early stim but no medivacs. I have had players say to me, but he MIGHT still push and just not use his gas. Yes that is true. And if he does it will be 3 minutes late and with almost no units. In the mean time, your preparation for a 1-1-1 or helbat/mine drop was much more effective, and the units you built to deal with that are enough to hold off his much delayed push.


I hope this hasn't been too all over the place and it has been helpful in clarifying thoughts you probably have already had but not been able to put into words.

The world is ending what should we do about it?
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
November 15 2013 20:39 GMT
#2
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 16 2013 00:58 GMT
#3
On November 16 2013 05:39 mizU wrote:
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"


A burst damage strategy is actually really strong against that as well. Especially against the heroes i suggested, especially if they were teamed with a high hp decent initiator str hero like clockwerk or axe for instance, especially if built for high physical defence, as no hero will die fast on the defending team, and the enigma team would simply fail to kill anything except maybe the initiator, and the rest of the initiator's team would insta gib each of the low hp high physical damage pushing team.

I also quite dislike Enigma in pushing teams, as his minions feed a lot of gold, as well has having an ultimate that is designed for AOE team fights not individual physical damage dealing, while i like pushing teams that are either mass healer or mass minions. My personal favourite pushing team is probably Chen, Dazzle, LoA, Warlock, and then the last is flexible, krobelus is a good pick.
The world is ending what should we do about it?
HolyExlxF
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
November 16 2013 06:39 GMT
#4
I agree. Thinking the former panders to the ideal of the worst of your opponents, and I don't think it's smart to play assuming your opposition's poor play.
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
DH Dallas | TheStC Showmatch
CranKy Ducklings110
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft492
StarCraft: Brood War
firebathero 81
Dota 2
monkeys_forever78
League of Legends
Grubby3470
Counter-Strike
summit1g9522
taco 835
Other Games
shahzam796
Artosis575
JimRising 412
Maynarde190
Pyrionflax164
Mew2King66
RuFF_SC210
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1622
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta129
• Hupsaiya 69
• Mapu8
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler45
League of Legends
• masondota2771
• Stunt271
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
10h 18m
PiGosaur Monday
23h 18m
The PondCast
1d 9h
Replay Cast
1d 23h
RSL Revival
2 days
WardiTV European League
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
WardiTV European League
3 days
FEL
3 days
[ Show More ]
Korean StarCraft League
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL: ProLeague
5 days
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-06-28
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.