• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 20:45
CET 02:45
KST 10:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book8Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info5herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar)9Weekly Cups (Jan 26-Feb 1): herO, Clem, ByuN, Classic win2RSL Season 4 announced for March-April7Weekly Cups (Jan 19-25): Bunny, Trigger, MaxPax win3Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win0
StarCraft 2
General
Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Clem wins HomeStory Cup 28 How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview
Tourneys
PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) WardiTV Mondays $21,000 Rongyi Cup Season 3 announced (Jan 22-Feb 7) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000 WardiTV Winter Championship 2026
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
Mutation # 512 Overclocked The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth Mutation # 510 Safety Violation
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Liquipedia.net NEEDS editors for Brood War BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Can someone share very abbreviated BW cliffnotes? StarCraft player reflex TE scores
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread EVE Corporation Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Play, Watch, Drink: Esports …
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2415 users

MOBA & SC2 Mindset crossover, "imaginary player"

Blogs > Surili
Post a Reply
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 15 2013 10:51 GMT
#1
So i wrote a piece that tried to incorporate the ideas of "the imaginary player" for both MOBA and SC2 players, in order to show low level players HOW TO THINK about strategies, and i didn't know where to get feedback from good players about it, so i thought i'd post it here.

My thoughts on SC2John's excellent post (look in the spoiler), so that MOBA players can see that it is relevant to them too. I will use an SC2 example at the bottom to help those who play both games:

+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=435534


The art of the imaginary player, and knowing WHEN and HOW you plan to win:

This is where due to unknown information you have to make wide decisions that incorporate all potentials.

The first thing this requires is a large amount of understanding and experience of the game itself.

Then how does this apply? Think about team drafting.

The important skill for the player(s) picking is to be able to work out any potential builds (strategies/game plans) the other team is trying to do as they pick their hero. To give an example from dota (and i'd appreciate a good lol player giving a lol example, as i'm sure it applies):
After the 3rd pick, the other team has chosen venge, luna and dazzle.

There are lots of possibilities from here.
One of those possibilities might be that they plan on running an aura team. However, due to the dazzle pick this might not be that obvious. There is still a lot of information that is unavailable.

They might just like venge and luna, and are going to go ahead and try to play what i like to call pub-standard, 2-1-2, where people pick heroes that work well as a combo for laning and don't think about the wider plan.

What is important here in the context of the imaginary player is not to think about what they are ACTUALLY thinking. Only what they COULD be thinking, no matter how likely. Sure, near the bottom of the ladder they might just be picking heroes/champions based on what they feel like doing, but that doesn't matter, because at BEST they will do a shitty version of what you are thinking about. React based on their best possible decision, while leaving yourself open to a wider set of choices.

The key here is to RULE OUT STRATEGIES. In this example, we KNOW they aren't doing a mass aoe team fight winning team. So you don't need to pick warlock to fuck up a potential enigma pick. Sure, they MIGHT pick enigma, but in this team enigma would be BAD, so don't prepare for it, a normal, well rounded team will crush this hard regardless. A good idea might be to pick a caster heavy team and try to dominate the early mid game will high burst spells vs his low hp, low burst team. The key here would be to win in the mid game.

This is why the logic that less good starcraft players use when they say: "Ah, but scouting in gold league doesn't matter because they might just be doing stupid things" is bad logic.

To give another concrete example: I scout a Terran who has taken double gas before expanding and put 3 in each geyser. I immediately rule out a bio push with early stim but no medivacs. I have had players say to me, but he MIGHT still push and just not use his gas. Yes that is true. And if he does it will be 3 minutes late and with almost no units. In the mean time, your preparation for a 1-1-1 or helbat/mine drop was much more effective, and the units you built to deal with that are enough to hold off his much delayed push.


I hope this hasn't been too all over the place and it has been helpful in clarifying thoughts you probably have already had but not been able to put into words.

The world is ending what should we do about it?
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
November 15 2013 20:39 GMT
#2
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Surili
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United Kingdom1141 Posts
November 16 2013 00:58 GMT
#3
On November 16 2013 05:39 mizU wrote:
why would an enigma pick be bad?
they could just be doing a 5 man push strat
in that case you need good early counter push, not early "burst"


A burst damage strategy is actually really strong against that as well. Especially against the heroes i suggested, especially if they were teamed with a high hp decent initiator str hero like clockwerk or axe for instance, especially if built for high physical defence, as no hero will die fast on the defending team, and the enigma team would simply fail to kill anything except maybe the initiator, and the rest of the initiator's team would insta gib each of the low hp high physical damage pushing team.

I also quite dislike Enigma in pushing teams, as his minions feed a lot of gold, as well has having an ultimate that is designed for AOE team fights not individual physical damage dealing, while i like pushing teams that are either mass healer or mass minions. My personal favourite pushing team is probably Chen, Dazzle, LoA, Warlock, and then the last is flexible, krobelus is a good pick.
The world is ending what should we do about it?
HolyExlxF
Profile Joined March 2011
United States256 Posts
November 16 2013 06:39 GMT
#4
I agree. Thinking the former panders to the ideal of the worst of your opponents, and I don't think it's smart to play assuming your opposition's poor play.
ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
00:00
OSC Elite Rising Star #17.5
CranKy Ducklings143
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 787
Hyun 212
Shuttle 34
League of Legends
JimRising 555
C9.Mang0135
Counter-Strike
taco 577
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1984
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor249
Other Games
summit1g11273
FrodaN4997
Liquid`RaSZi1824
ToD173
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick2062
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 103
• davetesta37
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 26
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift6025
• Scarra1279
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 15m
Wardi Open
10h 15m
Monday Night Weeklies
15h 15m
Replay Cast
22h 15m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 8h
LiuLi Cup
1d 9h
Reynor vs Creator
Maru vs Lambo
PiGosaur Monday
1d 23h
Replay Cast
2 days
LiuLi Cup
2 days
Clem vs Rogue
SHIN vs Cyan
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
KCM Race Survival
3 days
LiuLi Cup
3 days
Scarlett vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs herO
Replay Cast
3 days
Online Event
4 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
Serral vs Zoun
Cure vs Classic
RSL Revival
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
LiuLi Cup
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Nations Cup 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: W8
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.