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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
As some of you know, I'm back in school. Yup, AGAIN. It's the third go around for me, and my friends sure are ribbing at me.
"You sure must like collecting those letters!"
dry laugh... 
I think most people who know me online would guess that I'm going to be attending an engineering masters program, perhaps in CS. Logical, considering my gradual professional migration from hardware to software, and my newfound involvement in Free and Open Source Software.
Admittedly, that pull is strong. Deep down, the more I move away from engineering, the more I realize I really do like it, even through those grinding, painful, sleepless nights of torment when a dumptruck full of shit hit one of those massive Hollywood music video wind generator fans. I like making stuff (thank god for the web where I can build and push stuff out with ease), and I like people who make stuff even more.
But actually, I'm here at business school (at UCLA, for those that are wondering). There's a whole slew of factors why I'm here, but the short version is "I want to be the guy in between the suits and the hackers who can fight for the technical guys".
That's been my motivation since I was 16 (when I realized that I likely couldn't be the best in a purely technical field), and though I've oscillated here and there, and while the details have morphed a bit, the feeling deep down has persevered inside of me throughout all these years.
Now I'm painfully aware of the stereotype of MBAs in tech as out of touch, haughty, pointy haired manager types. Hopefully I can pick up some skills and knowledge during these two years and simultaneously avoid getting "corrupted" in this way!
So my posts here will probably start becoming a bit more concrete, which will surely be a welcomed change from the abstract nonsense I've tended to write in the past. Some will be from the curriculum, but I imagine most of the stuff will be interpersonal observations.
I'm living on campus so if you're in the area, (and you don't hate my guts! -- don't worry, I totally understand if you hate me ) let's meet up sometime. Shoot me a message!
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Crossposted from my blog
  
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United States17042 Posts
I'm here (UCLA) too haji, for at least another year  let's meet up sometime. Good Luck ^_^
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Is an MBA actually worth it in the USA? Over here pretty much only foreigners get MBAs, but most Kiwis don't hold much...respect for an MBA. Real experience trumphs it every time, from what I've seen at least.
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Hey, I'm at UCLA, and I know there's some other TLers here on-campus as well. We should do a meetup.
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I'm at UCLA too! I'm definitely down for a meetup.
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United States37500 Posts
I'm not UCLA. :O
But I'll be in the area this week. You free Saturday? I leave Mon morning.
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On September 30 2013 15:15 thedeadhaji wrote:
"I want to be the guy in between the suits and the hackers who can fight for the technical guys".
I feel the same way actually, albeit a bit more oriented towards the business/managerial side of things as my coding skills are mediocre.
That's why I decided to take a Masters in Strategic IT Management in Stockholm, I feel like it's a good mix of business and technical skills, and it covers a lot of ground albeit not being super in-depth in any one field.
I feel pretty comfortable with my job prospects though, since there seems to relatively few people who possess both the understanding of IT systems and the ability to communicate their implications in front of a business development team and/or investors. I might still take a few additional CS/database electives though since I probably shouldn't be as squeamish of coding as I currently am (I've only had about 2 semesters of python, java and SQL in my undergrad program).
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UCLA here as well!
We should definitely have a TL meet up.
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It's quite amazing and sobering to find out how many people on TL are at UCLA, and how many people at UCLA actually play StarCraft.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 01 2013 04:46 Loser777 wrote:
It's quite amazing and sobering to find out how many people on TL are at UCLA, and how many people at UCLA actually play StarCraft.
I've definitely overheard grad students talking about PvT strategy near the university apartments, so I imagine the number is pretty big 
On September 30 2013 16:44 Birdie wrote:
Is an MBA actually worth it in the USA? Over here pretty much only foreigners get MBAs, but most Kiwis don't hold much...respect for an MBA. Real experience trumphs it every time, from what I've seen at least.
I'm as skeptical as anyone who "just has a MBA" and would be looking concretely at what the person has done outside of the program, both before and during their academic stint. That being said, I think it depends on the industry and function. Consulting and Finance tend to value it more than Tech, but certain functions and companies in tech seem to be seeking such candidates. Media apparently doesn't really give a damn
So the answer really is, "it depends on exactly what and where we're speaking of in the states"
On October 01 2013 02:36 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 15:15 thedeadhaji wrote:
"I want to be the guy in between the suits and the hackers who can fight for the technical guys".
I feel the same way actually, albeit a bit more oriented towards the business/managerial side of things as my coding skills are mediocre. That's why I decided to take a Masters in Strategic IT Management in Stockholm, I feel like it's a good mix of business and technical skills, and it covers a lot of ground albeit not being super in-depth in any one field. I feel pretty comfortable with my job prospects though, since there seems to relatively few people who possess both the understanding of IT systems and the ability to communicate their implications in front of a business development team and/or investors. I might still take a few additional CS/database electives though since I probably shouldn't be as squeamish of coding as I currently am (I've only had about 2 semesters of python, java and SQL in my undergrad program).
High five comrade!
On September 30 2013 23:39 NeoIllusions wrote:
I'm not UCLA. :O
But I'll be in the area this week. You free Saturday? I leave Mon morning.
LoL I'm going to be in the Bay Area this weekend for a wedding
(you're going to be here for the LoL championship right?)
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What building are you living in on campus?
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I would like to point out though that the number of people who talk about StarCraft is yet again different from the number of people who play StarCraft, and very different from the number willing to play in CSL T_T
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On October 01 2013 02:36 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2013 15:15 thedeadhaji wrote:
"I want to be the guy in between the suits and the hackers who can fight for the technical guys".
I feel the same way actually, albeit a bit more oriented towards the business/managerial side of things as my coding skills are mediocre. That's why I decided to take a Masters in Strategic IT Management in Stockholm, I feel like it's a good mix of business and technical skills, and it covers a lot of ground albeit not being super in-depth in any one field. I feel pretty comfortable with my job prospects though, since there seems to relatively few people who possess both the understanding of IT systems and the ability to communicate their implications in front of a business development team and/or investors. I might still take a few additional CS/database electives though since I probably shouldn't be as squeamish of coding as I currently am (I've only had about 2 semesters of python, java and SQL in my undergrad program).
i am a (lifelong/highly technically proficient) programmer that learned business-savvy from common sense, and just going out there. i run a dev shop now and am proficient in any situation from marketing services to garnering interest and investment in in-house products. no need for an MBA or a bullshit middle-of-the-road degree. just take what technical knowledge you know and use business 101 common sense and you will be more powerful than rehashing knowledge extending from a 'curriculum' in how to manage people in a field. knowing the field then just jumping into managing people works out much better and the experiential knowledge makes you way better.
other programmers are realizing this and you are going to lose out with your middle-of-the-road degree (mostly erik, an mba will always make you get an overinflated job in the worst case for haji). 2nd best doesn't mean much in the cutthroat tech industry, unless you are happy with the same salary/status you'd have as a project manager or bullshit middle manager. and thats assuming you'd be 2nd best. you'd likely be in the 20's-30's for whatever niche you work with/for.
when you die you'll think about the value you created in the world, and it won't be pretty. you will never have the respect of programmers even if you proclaim you are 'in between the suits and hackers fighting for the hackers' thats ridiculous. a good hacker can do that job, 1000x better. thats my point...
your field will get phased out (Strategic IT management) the more companies realize they can take an outgoing good programmer and just make him/her a manager. They are slowly but steadily realizing this.
my constructive advice is just to get as good at programming as possible or focus 100% on business.
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For some reason I had the impression you were 40 and lived in Japan. o.o
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All these years I've thought you were a rather expectional engineer already a few years in the business and around your late 20s.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 01 2013 13:32 Disregard wrote:
All these years I've thought you were a rather expectional engineer already a few years in the business and around your late 20s.
nope I'm a pretty crappy engineer! I kind of wish I had devoted myself more to science back in school actually. 
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Does UCLA HAVE a CSL team? 0_o.
Also, Gameon doesn't have PCs anymore. :<
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Zurich15342 Posts
I ended up as the middle man only to fight the techies most of the time
Good luck with your 15th degree!
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are you paying for the mba yourself or is someone else like your employer paying it for you? Cause if your paying it, i think it's a waste of money.
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On October 01 2013 11:15 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 02:36 Erik.TheRed wrote:On September 30 2013 15:15 thedeadhaji wrote:
"I want to be the guy in between the suits and the hackers who can fight for the technical guys".
I feel the same way actually, albeit a bit more oriented towards the business/managerial side of things as my coding skills are mediocre. That's why I decided to take a Masters in Strategic IT Management in Stockholm, I feel like it's a good mix of business and technical skills, and it covers a lot of ground albeit not being super in-depth in any one field. I feel pretty comfortable with my job prospects though, since there seems to relatively few people who possess both the understanding of IT systems and the ability to communicate their implications in front of a business development team and/or investors. I might still take a few additional CS/database electives though since I probably shouldn't be as squeamish of coding as I currently am (I've only had about 2 semesters of python, java and SQL in my undergrad program). i am a (lifelong/highly technically proficient) programmer that learned business-savvy from common sense, and just going out there. i run a dev shop now and am proficient in any situation from marketing services to garnering interest and investment in in-house products. no need for an MBA or a bullshit middle-of-the-road degree. just take what technical knowledge you know and use business 101 common sense and you will be more powerful than rehashing knowledge extending from a 'curriculum' in how to manage people in a field. knowing the field then just jumping into managing people works out much better and the experiential knowledge makes you way better. other programmers are realizing this and you are going to lose out with your middle-of-the-road degree (mostly erik, an mba will always make you get an overinflated job in the worst case for haji). 2nd best doesn't mean much in the cutthroat tech industry, unless you are happy with the same salary/status you'd have as a project manager or bullshit middle manager. and thats assuming you'd be 2nd best. you'd likely be in the 20's-30's for whatever niche you work with/for. when you die you'll think about the value you created in the world, and it won't be pretty. you will never have the respect of programmers even if you proclaim you are 'in between the suits and hackers fighting for the hackers' thats ridiculous. a good hacker can do that job, 1000x better. thats my point... your field will get phased out (Strategic IT management) the more companies realize they can take an outgoing good programmer and just make him/her a manager. They are slowly but steadily realizing this. my constructive advice is just to get as good at programming as possible or focus 100% on business.
First of all, thanks for the thorough reply! I really do appreciate the tips.
A lot of the things you say about middle-of-the-road degrees do resonate with me and I definitely agree that the opportunity cost for acquiring such degrees can be quite high. However, when I initially made the decision to pursue a masters I came up with a decent number of reasons that convinced me it was the best choice. Basically, in order of value/importance:
1) I'm half-Swedish so I get free tuition
2) Enables networking and potential internships with big IT companies (I'm basically studying in the silicon valley of Sweden)
3) Study-abroad/international experience and learning a foreign language (especially useful with Swedish-American businesses)
4) US economy still not in the best shape and no guarantee I would find work with room for growth. (Harder to prove because I didn't exactly apply to many jobs before graduating since I was preparing to study overseas).
I think the first two points alone are enough to justify spending 2 more years in school, especially since I have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to picking classes and a thesis that won't be a waste of time. I also agree with your advise that I should focus much more on business, which is what I plan on doing since my technical knowledge is about as good as it needs to be without actually wanting or expecting to do any actual coding on-the-job. Rather, I maintain a more managerial perspective -- that understanding the basics of how the IT systems work will lead to better decisions on the business-setup and organizational processes.
That being said, I would actually much rather be working and learning on the field but I can't really find evidence that not having a masters won't make a difference in finding a better starting position. All the evidence points to the contrary (especially #2 and #3 in my list) so I feel that it still makes more sense to just make the most of my situation and stay in school for a few more years.
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I hope this isn't too personal, but just wondering, how old are you roughly (over or under 30)? I always got the impression that you were an older guy, by TL standards at least.
Are you doing your MBA full-time? I've thought about doing it myself but I feel like the opportunity cost of not working for 2 years is a bit much.
Best of luck in B-school!
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Any advice on getting into business school? I'm thinking of applying next year.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 01 2013 22:58 c0ldfusion wrote:
I hope this isn't too personal, but just wondering, how old are you roughly (over or under 30)? I always got the impression that you were an older guy, by TL standards at least.
Are you doing your MBA full-time? I've thought about doing it myself but I feel like the opportunity cost of not working for 2 years is a bit much.
Best of luck in B-school!
I'm around 30, but my mental age is 40+ and on top of that I had that bad habit of being the haughty condescending asshole online
I'm doing it full time. The opportunity cost is admittedly massive so I'd look hard at what you want to become and what tangible things you want to gain from a program before committing.
On October 02 2013 04:20 caelym wrote:
Any advice on getting into business school? I'm thinking of applying next year.
Without knowing more about you, all I can say is that getting into the best programs is about having name brands on your resume, high test scores, high GPA, great recommendations, and being personable in the interviews. Also, write what the school wants to hear about you in your essays rather than what you necessarily really believe.
Vague advice I know, but if you want to discuss further I'm happy to chat via email or something along those lines so shoot me a pm here to get the ball rolling
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On October 01 2013 20:05 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2013 11:15 nath wrote:On October 01 2013 02:36 Erik.TheRed wrote:On September 30 2013 15:15 thedeadhaji wrote:
"I want to be the guy in between the suits and the hackers who can fight for the technical guys".
I feel the same way actually, albeit a bit more oriented towards the business/managerial side of things as my coding skills are mediocre. That's why I decided to take a Masters in Strategic IT Management in Stockholm, I feel like it's a good mix of business and technical skills, and it covers a lot of ground albeit not being super in-depth in any one field. I feel pretty comfortable with my job prospects though, since there seems to relatively few people who possess both the understanding of IT systems and the ability to communicate their implications in front of a business development team and/or investors. I might still take a few additional CS/database electives though since I probably shouldn't be as squeamish of coding as I currently am (I've only had about 2 semesters of python, java and SQL in my undergrad program). i am a (lifelong/highly technically proficient) programmer that learned business-savvy from common sense, and just going out there. i run a dev shop now and am proficient in any situation from marketing services to garnering interest and investment in in-house products. no need for an MBA or a bullshit middle-of-the-road degree. just take what technical knowledge you know and use business 101 common sense and you will be more powerful than rehashing knowledge extending from a 'curriculum' in how to manage people in a field. knowing the field then just jumping into managing people works out much better and the experiential knowledge makes you way better. other programmers are realizing this and you are going to lose out with your middle-of-the-road degree (mostly erik, an mba will always make you get an overinflated job in the worst case for haji). 2nd best doesn't mean much in the cutthroat tech industry, unless you are happy with the same salary/status you'd have as a project manager or bullshit middle manager. and thats assuming you'd be 2nd best. you'd likely be in the 20's-30's for whatever niche you work with/for. when you die you'll think about the value you created in the world, and it won't be pretty. you will never have the respect of programmers even if you proclaim you are 'in between the suits and hackers fighting for the hackers' thats ridiculous. a good hacker can do that job, 1000x better. thats my point... your field will get phased out (Strategic IT management) the more companies realize they can take an outgoing good programmer and just make him/her a manager. They are slowly but steadily realizing this. my constructive advice is just to get as good at programming as possible or focus 100% on business. First of all, thanks for the thorough reply! I really do appreciate the tips. A lot of the things you say about middle-of-the-road degrees do resonate with me and I definitely agree that the opportunity cost for acquiring such degrees can be quite high. However, when I initially made the decision to pursue a masters I came up with a decent number of reasons that convinced me it was the best choice. Basically, in order of value/importance: 1) I'm half-Swedish so I get free tuition 2) Enables networking and potential internships with big IT companies (I'm basically studying in the silicon valley of Sweden) 3) Study-abroad/international experience and learning a foreign language (especially useful with Swedish-American businesses) 4) US economy still not in the best shape and no guarantee I would find work with room for growth. (Harder to prove because I didn't exactly apply to many jobs before graduating since I was preparing to study overseas). I think the first two points alone are enough to justify spending 2 more years in school, especially since I have a great deal of flexibility when it comes to picking classes and a thesis that won't be a waste of time. I also agree with your advise that I should focus much more on business, which is what I plan on doing since my technical knowledge is about as good as it needs to be without actually wanting or expecting to do any actual coding on-the-job. Rather, I maintain a more managerial perspective -- that understanding the basics of how the IT systems work will lead to better decisions on the business-setup and organizational processes. That being said, I would actually much rather be working and learning on the field but I can't really find evidence that not having a masters won't make a difference in finding a better starting position. All the evidence points to the contrary (especially #2 and #3 in my list) so I feel that it still makes more sense to just make the most of my situation and stay in school for a few more years.
staying in school is more than fine! i would really really recommend either going for a full on business degree in your case (or full on CS if you were interested in being a technical leader, but that is not your interest). its a better way to spend your education because the technical skills can be learned in spare time easily. and really, lets all be honest with ourselves, no matter how 'tech-savvy' you get as a manager, for the type of management you want to go into its really mostly just jargon + understanding what your technical people are communicating.
i really would never tell you to stop school, lol. personally i did that since i was getting job offers for jobs that masters candidates were applying to before i finished my BS (physics), so it made sense for me. i didnt mention this and wasn't conveying the sentiment of leaving school in my post, though...not sure where you saw that. apologies if i did.
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On October 02 2013 06:56 thedeadhaji wrote:>nath I totally hear ya. I think it's always about the quality of the person rather than whatever degree she may have, especially with a business degree where seemingly everyone and their grandma has one these days. And I agree with you that the best people (who are the people you want) would have been just fine without getting such a degree. I considered not going to MBA and just changing jobs again laterally until the very last moment, but in the end there were some concrete reasons for being here that I decided to act on. Without having tangible things you're trying to get out of a professional program, I agree that it can potentially be totally worthless. I'll eventually explain in a future blog, but I have some non-professional, life reasons for being here as well.
ah i guess i must have really conveyed that sentiment of leaving school, lol.
i meant its better to specialize then learn the cross-disciplinary skills outside of school/in the field than 'majoring' in a cross-disciplinary field.
and the goal of "being between suits and hackers fighting for hackers" is always going to be a niche better filled by a business-savvy hacker than a 'hacker-savvy' businessman.
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You sound cool, but should have come to berkeley instead, I want more cool friends lol.
Best of luck with your new degree. Try not to get assimilated by the sharks though, too many of those around already =p
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 02 2013 08:56 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 06:56 thedeadhaji wrote:>nath I totally hear ya. I think it's always about the quality of the person rather than whatever degree she may have, especially with a business degree where seemingly everyone and their grandma has one these days. And I agree with you that the best people (who are the people you want) would have been just fine without getting such a degree. I considered not going to MBA and just changing jobs again laterally until the very last moment, but in the end there were some concrete reasons for being here that I decided to act on. Without having tangible things you're trying to get out of a professional program, I agree that it can potentially be totally worthless. I'll eventually explain in a future blog, but I have some non-professional, life reasons for being here as well. ah i guess i must have really conveyed that sentiment of leaving school, lol. i meant its better to specialize then learn the cross-disciplinary skills outside of school/in the field than 'majoring' in a cross-disciplinary field. and the goal of "being between suits and hackers fighting for hackers" is always going to be a niche better filled by a business-savvy hacker than a 'hacker-savvy' businessman.
I'll eventually become a full blown suit for sure. That's the trajectory I'm on, and it's really just a matter of time. Sentimentally, I wish I could stay affiliated with the tech side as long as possible; while my skills are mostly business side now, my heart is still very much a nerd
(and yes, at least in an ideal world, the in between role is best filled by those who can play the politics game while being a technical star as well. The combination is pretty hard to come by in one person though, so you do often see these politician/engr.mgr. tandems that do quite well)
On October 02 2013 15:21 KlaCkoN wrote:
You sound cool, but should have come to berkeley instead, I want more cool friends lol.
Best of luck with your new degree. Try not to get assimilated by the sharks though, too many of those around already =p
Haha I'm sure Cal has plenty of awesome people there already. I wouldn't be adding much!
But yes, I will be dearly trying to avoid becoming the pointy haired manager!
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Well, I'm in law school with a biochem undergrad degree and I also want to be the guy between suits and scientists It's always great to see someone else with a similar idea
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On October 03 2013 02:17 hmsrenown wrote:Well, I'm in law school with a biochem undergrad degree and I also want to be the guy between suits and scientists It's always great to see someone else with a similar idea
Patent Law?
Someone's going for the big bucks!
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Why not be a suit fighting for hackers? I want to be a suit, but a suit that makes a difference in the world. And the only way I will do that is being better than all the other suits out there
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I thought about going to get my MBA, but I'm not too sure if I still want it. :\
But yes, I will say there is a lot of misunderstanding between the "suits" and the "hackers". Someone's gotta translate! Good luck. :D
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Unfortunately there's a mysterious alluring force of greed and capitalism that consumes said suits.
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On October 03 2013 14:32 Disregard wrote:
Unfortunately there's a mysterious alluring force of greed and capitalism that consumes said suits.
nono. they will change the system from within
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On October 02 2013 06:56 thedeadhaji wrote:>nath I totally hear ya. I think it's always about the quality of the person rather than whatever degree she may have, especially with a business degree where seemingly everyone and their grandma has one these days. And I agree with you that the best people (who are the people you want) would have been just fine without getting such a degree. I considered not going to MBA and just changing jobs again laterally until the very last moment, but in the end there were some concrete reasons for being here that I decided to act on. Without having tangible things you're trying to get out of a professional program, I agree that it can potentially be totally worthless. I'll eventually explain in a future blog, but I have some non-professional, life reasons for being here as well.
sounds like a female reason :D
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EPT
