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United States4883 Posts
Going Sentry First in PvP:
(Is FE the new PvP meta??)
Some PvP Threats:
+ Show Spoiler +1) Warpgate attacks
-10-gate 3-gate: ~5:20
-4-gate: ~5:45
-3-4 gate pressure: ~6:00-6:30
2) tech attacks
-blink: ~7:00
-DTs: ~6:40
-Proxy oracle: ~5:15-5:45
3) Later attacks/all-ins (~7:30+)
phoenix all-ins
immortal all-ins
void ray all-ins
4-gate DT all-ins
colossus all-ins
warp prism all-ins
3-4 gate pressure
blink stalkers, &tc.
Some Timings:
+ Show Spoiler +(possible core scout with probe)
@~3:50 -> warpgate/MsC/sentry
First sentry out @4:30
Hallucination scout @6:00
*(suggested probe scout @6:30)*
Followup hallucination scout @~7:15
1) Spotting front w/ MsC/probe
@5:20: 80 energy, MsC @90 energy
@5:45: 95 energy, MsC @100 energy
2) Hallucination scout
3-5 gateway units (stalker/sentry)
Photon Overcharge available
Warp gate finishes ~6:30 (at the latest)
Robo down by 6:00 (at the latest)
@7:00 -> observer OR immortal
Approximately 3 FF for DTs
Followup scout available ~7:00-7:30
3) Scouted via hallucination
3-5 FF available, 150-200 MsC energy
Counter-tech available
Looking at these timings, I feel it's very possible to open with MsC/sentry and, using minimal scouting, be safe to pretty much all threats coming your way. The only key information missing here is knowing whether your opponent is going for a late expansion or an all-in, which can easily be scouted with a probe ~6:30.
Knowing this, though, it's safe to assume that a fast expansion (1 or 2-gate expansion) is completely viable in this matchup if you open with a sentry first. I think it's also possible to substitute a stargate in place of the robo; while this playstyle might be a little more unstable comparatively, it might be an interesting way to mix up your play on the same sentry-first FE principle.
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United States15275 Posts
You haven't actually made an argument.
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I usually 1Gate FE into Blink Stalker, but this sounds great.
One question though, how do you deal with proxy 2Gate? Even with the MSC the Zealots will still do damage. Or does the Sentry pop early enough and stall enough time with FF?
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You have zero map presence and potential to be agressive with sentry first.
it dont like it really because of this.
however, players like rain used sentry first robo builds, so it is surely a viable build to go sentry first
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Yeah you're right about moco being good vs timings. Tbh the sentry isn't even that necessary 1b v 1b since you can turtle behind a nexus cannon anyways. If you rush a fast mothership core before you spend gas on other things, faster 1b all-ins shouldn't really work since they're so delayed by nexus cannon & after you'll have better tech if you're playing a build optimally.
edit:
also. that doesn't make FE the new meta.. it just makes it so cheesy 1b all-ins are less frequent and effective. There are other ways to punish FE builds.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 15 2013 02:20 CosmicSpiral wrote:
You haven't actually made an argument.
This isn't an argument, it's a blog post of my notes. But if you want an thesis, it was simply: A fast expansion in PvP is made viable and safe with minimal scouting by the combination of a sentry first and MsC.
On August 15 2013 02:24 Antylamon wrote:
I usually 1Gate FE into Blink Stalker, but this sounds great.
One question though, how do you deal with proxy 2Gate? Even with the MSC the Zealots will still do damage. Or does the Sentry pop early enough and stall enough time with FF?
Hmm, interesting. In my experience, the problem with going for something like blink stalkers or DTs after fast expanding is that you open yourself to instant death if your opponent opens DTs (or if you're a robo for ONLY 2 observers, you're wasting that facility).
As for dealing with cheese such as proxy 2-gate and cannon rushes, etc., I did not include them in this because that comes before making MsC/sentry. If you scout a proxy gate(s), you should definitely do the normal response of building a second gateway and chronoboosting out zealots or just defending with MsC/stalker and skipping over the whole "sentry first" idea completely.
On August 15 2013 02:46 Paljas wrote:
You have zero map presence and potential to be agressive with sentry first.
it dont like it really because of this.
however, players like rain used sentry first robo builds, so it is surely a viable build to go sentry first
This is true, but that's why it makes sense to fast expand behind a sentry first. By going for a fast 1- or 2-gate expansion, you're already surrendering your map control until later. BTW, if you want to see a really great example of this sentry-first concept, look at Rain vs. Dear in the PL playoffs...Rain does an amazingly strong 2-gate FE that has strong counterattack potential (~7:30).
On August 15 2013 09:17 Poo wrote:
Yeah you're right about moco being good vs timings. Tbh the sentry isn't even that necessary 1b v 1b since you can turtle behind a nexus cannon anyways. If you rush a fast mothership core before you spend gas on other things, faster 1b all-ins shouldn't really work since they're so delayed by nexus cannon & after you'll have better tech if you're playing a build optimally.
edit:
also. that doesn't make FE the new meta.. it just makes it so cheesy 1b all-ins are less frequent and effective. There are other ways to punish FE builds.
The key of going sentry first in this case is that you get a free scout at 6:00 as well as being literally 100% safe against all other timings (except maybe something like super-cheesy proxy stargate void rays or something). The key to going for these super fast expansions is that you can actually hold off 1-base attacks AT YOUR NATURAL, so it's 2-base vs. 1-base and you have the better tech. At worst, you can cancel your nexus for a 100-mineral deficit and still take your expansion at the same time as your opponent. The point is that it's SAFE.
To your endnote: if you look at the lists I put down, you see that I mentioned most of the deadly pressure (and not just cheeses) your opponent can put on you. With proper scouting and reactions you SHOULD be able to deflect those pressures, but like all things in PvP, it all comes down to decision-making and micro whether or not you actually hold. That being said, WHAT OTHER WAYS CAN YOU PUNISH A FE? If most pressure can be deflected with a fast expansion, why wouldn't FE become the new meta? I'm speaking from experience in watching (and cataloging) several PvProleague games as well as from watching the general trends in WCS: I'm seeing fast expands more and more often in PvP, indicating a definite shift in the meta.
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Thank you all for your posts and considerations! If there's anything further you'd like to discuss or disagree with me about, by all means, go ahead. These are my SC2 notes and thoughts I have about the game; without any kind of opposition, I would never understand things fully.
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I just wonder how this fares against a zealot stalker (stalker) poke? wouldn't this force out FFs that you then lack when a follow up gateway attack hits?
I encounter a lot of those pokes from players who want to do 3gate pressure and obviously ppl who plan on 4 gating.
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United States4883 Posts
On August 15 2013 21:20 tar wrote:
I just wonder how this fares against a zealot stalker (stalker) poke? wouldn't this force out FFs that you then lack when a follow up gateway attack hits?
I encounter a lot of those pokes from players who want to do 3gate pressure and obviously ppl who plan on 4 gating.
Assuming a normal gateway timing (no proxies or anything), you might be looking at a zealot/stalker poke ~5:00-5:30. During this time, you should have at least one forcefield available and a time warp (nexus cannon shortly). If you're going 1-gate, you'll have approximately 3 units out; a 2-gate expansion should definitely have 3 units out. You may have to cut the zealot off with a FF and focus it down, but overall, you should be fine. In the Rain build I've been looking at, you will have a MsC, a sentry, and 2 stalkers by the time a normal poke hits, which is more than enough to deflect it.
Proxies or 10-gates might be a different story. I think in those types of situations just need to be identified early so you know exactly what you're up against. ...10-gate into 3-gate pressure might be a hard counter to sentry-first PvP. It's possible. Assuming you DO manage to keep the stalker/zealot poke away, though, you're 100% safe against any kind of gateway pressure like 4-gate or 3-gate pressure between FF and nexus cannon.
Sidenote: I don't know if I was clear or not, but you should be able to hold gateway aggression because your initial sentry SHOULD survive, and because you should be making more than 1 sentry (as it's a fast expand build). This means that you should have a healthy 3-5 forcefields (45-75sec) at the time an attack comes, plus a nexus cannon (additional 60 seconds) if you should ever somehow run out of forcefields. That means that a normal 4-gate, at worst, could be delayed by nearly 2 minutes (~7:45), lolololol.
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EPT
